Author Topic: Donald J. Trump Responds to the Lies of Senator Cruz and Warns of Legal Action  (Read 2813 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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You asserted that he lied

Yes, I have.  Simply tell me what Rafael Jr. has not lied about.

This should be simple, should it not?

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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So, what are the lies?

Cruz is a lawyer, and a pretty good one at that. His lies are grounded in plausible deniability and partial truths hidding behing generalizations that are mostly lies.

Here's one:

“I have never supported legalization, and I do not intend to support legalization." - Ted Cruz

The first half of that is a blatant lie, and the second half impossible to gauge since it boils down to predicting the future.

On the Senate floor, on May 21, 2013, Cruz defended an amendment to the Gang of Eight legislation which would remove the path to citizenship portion of the bill, but provided for legalization for people already in the country. Cruz defended his amendment on the floor:

Quote
"And so I would urge people of good faith on both sides of the aisle if the objective is to pass common sense immigration reform that secures the borders, that improves legal immigration and that allows those who are here illegally to come in out of the shadows, then we should look for areas of bipartisan agreement and compromise to come together. And this amendment, I believe if this amendment were to pass, the chances of this bill passing into law would increase dramatically."

Still... "come out of the shadows" could mean many things. But Cruz continued:

Quote
"... and so I would urge everyone on this committee to roll up our sleeves and fix the problem in a humane way that secures the border, gets serious about fixing that problem, that expands and improves legal immigration and that does not unfairly treat legal immigrants by removing a path to citizenship but allowing as this legislation does a legal status for those who are here illegally. That would be reform that a great many people across this country, both Republican and Democrat, would embrace and I would urge the committee to consider the amendment."

Now we know what he meant by "coming out of the shadows".

So Cruz is lying about never having supported legalization.

Here's another one.

Cruz consistently attacks Rubio by saying “that he (Rubio) would not revoke President Obama’s illegal executive amnesty on the first day in
office.”


That's another lie hidden behind a misrepresented partial truth.

I've read the text of Rubio's Univision interview, and I understand exactly what Marco said.

Rubio responded that DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals) had to come to an end at "some predetermined moment", but the he wouldn't do it immediately, with the reason being that there are people already benefiting from that program, who have permits, jobs and ere studying (attending school) and that it wouldn't be just to cancel their status from one moment to another. But he asserted that the program had to end "God willing" by Congress passing immigration reforms.

He said that DAPA was not already an active program, so he would immediately rescind that EO.

He also clearly stated, on Spanish TV, that the Dreamer Program (DACA) could not stand as permanent US policy.

So, Cruz lied again.

Maybe he should get a better translator.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 05:20:17 am by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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So, Cruz lied again.

Why are you always taking Trump's side. :laugh:

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Why are you always taking Trump's side. :laugh:

Trump "GUARANTEED" the students at Liberty University that if elected POTUS, people in stores would say "Merry Christmas".

They're just two different kinds of crazy.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Cruz is a lawyer, and a pretty good one at that. His lies are grounded in plausible deniability and partial truths hidding behing generalizations that are mostly lies.

Here's one:

“I have never supported legalization, and I do not intend to support legalization." - Ted Cruz

The first half of that is a blatant lie, and the second half impossible to gauge since it boils down to predicting the future.

On the Senate floor, on May 21, 2013, Cruz defended an amendment to the Gang of Eight legislation which would remove the path to citizenship portion of the bill, but provided for legalization for people already in the country. Cruz defended his amendment on the floor:

Still... "come out of the shadows" could mean many things. But Cruz continued:

Now we know what he meant by "coming out of the shadows".

So Cruz is lying about never having supported legalization.

Here's another one.

Cruz consistently attacks Rubio by saying “that he (Rubio) would not revoke President Obama’s illegal executive amnesty on the first day in
office.”


That's another lie hidden behind a misrepresented partial truth.

I've read the text of Rubio's Univision interview, and I understand exactly what Marco said.

Rubio responded that DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals) had to come to an end at "some predetermined moment", but the he wouldn't do it immediately, with the reason being that there are people already benefiting from that program, who have permits, jobs and ere studying (attending school) and that it wouldn't be just to cancel their status from one moment to another. But he asserted that the program had to end "God willing" by Congress passing immigration reforms.

He said that DAPA was not already an active program, so he would immediately rescind that EO.

He also clearly stated, on Spanish TV, that the Dreamer Program (DACA) could not stand as permanent US policy.

So, Cruz lied again.

Maybe he should get a better translator.



Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! And Wrong again!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! And Wrong again!

Pulled the Cruz quotes directly from the Congressional record.

Translated Rubio's interview directly from the show's transcript and watched the video just to check the accuracy of the text. I am completely fluent in both Spanish and English.

It's not wrong just because you say so.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline aligncare

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Cruz not only lied, he resorted to cheap campaign dirty tricks, like allowing campaign TV and radio ads ahead of the South Carolina vote saying Trump is withdrawing from the race...

Nothing there to be proud of, Bigun.

Online Bigun

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Cruz not only lied, he resorted to cheap campaign dirty tricks, like allowing campaign TV and radio ads ahead of the South Carolina vote saying Trump is withdrawing from the race...

Nothing there to be proud of, Bigun.

BS! YOU go ahead and let the media lead you around by the nose! I will not!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Pulled the Cruz quotes directly from the Congressional record.

Translated Rubio's interview directly from the show's transcript and watched the video just to check the accuracy of the text. I am completely fluent in both Spanish and English.

It's not wrong just because you say so.

No you didn't!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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No you didn't!


Think twice before you ever call me a liar again.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 04:24:10 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Legal STATUS i.e. guest worker is NOT the same thing as a path to citizenship! Never has been and never will be!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Legal STATUS i.e. guest worker is NOT the same thing as a path to citizenship! Never has been and never will be!


“I have never supported legalization, and I do not intend to support legalization."
- Ted Cruz

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 04:26:13 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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“I have never supported legalization, and I do not intend to support legalization."
- Ted Cruz

Cruz lied, he supported legalization.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Legal STATUS i.e. guest worker is NOT the same thing as a path to citizenship! Never has been and never will be!

He doesn't use the words "guest workers" ONCE in that video.

He wanted to give legal status (AKA as legalization) to the millions of illegal aliens in the country.

"They would still be eligible for legal status and indeed, under the terms of the bill, they would be eligible for LPR [Lawful Permanent Resident] status."

Ted's Amendment, in his own words, would allow illegal aliens to get LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENT STATUS.

Nothing "guest worker" about PERMANENT, is there Bigun?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 04:38:24 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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He doesn't use the words "guest workers" ONCE in that video.

He wanted to give legal status (AKA as legalization) to the millions of illegal aliens in the country.

"They would still be eligible for legal status and indeed, under the terms of the bill, they would be eligible for LPR [Lawful Permanent Resident] status."

Ted's Amendment, in his own words, would allow illegal aliens to get LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENT STATUS.

Nothing "guest worker" about PERMANENT, is there Bigun?

Were in that video has Cruz ever said the word permanent?

Maybe I need to get my hearing aids fixed but I can't hear it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Were in that video has Cruz ever said the word permanent?

Maybe I need to get my hearing aids fixed but I can't hear it!

You're not deaf.

You just can't admit when you're wrong.

Right after he says that he'd like to double legal immigration and expand high-skilled workers visas by 500%.

One minute into the video:

"They would still be eligible for legal status and indeed, under the terms of the bill, they would be eligible for LPR [Lawful Permanent Resident] status."

You're disingenuous as Hell Bigun.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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You're not deaf.

You just can't admit when you're wrong.

Right after he says that he'd like to double legal immigration and expand high-skilled workers visas by 500%.

One minute into the video:

"They would still be eligible for legal status and indeed, under the terms of the bill, they would be eligible for LPR [Lawful Permanent Resident] status."

You're disingenuous as Hell Bigun.


As of about 2 hours ago my vote went in the can Luis! I went to Ted Cruz and millions and millions  of  other right thinking people will join me in doing the same.

Good luck to you in trying to sell yet another establishment loser to the republican electorate this time around!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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As of about 2 hours ago my vote went in the can Luis! I went to Ted Cruz and millions and millions  of  other right thinking people will join me in doing the same.

Good luck to you in trying to sell yet another establishment loser to the republican electorate this time around!

Just so we're straight.

Cruz supported legalization, so he lied about never having supported legalization.

Are we clear on that?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Just so we're straight.

Cruz supported legalization, so he lied about never having supported legalization.

Are we clear on that?

Nope! But it's clear that YOU think he did!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Nope! But it's clear that YOU think he did!

It's on video, coming out of his mouth, in congress.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline aligncare

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Luis, you're one of the smartest people I know. You know the world of politics exists outside the realm of logic. Why concern yourself so fiercely over proving a point? In the end it just fills time and moves nothing.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Luis, you're one of the smartest people I know. You know the world of politics exists outside the realm of logic. Why concern yourself so fiercely over proving a point? In the end it just fills time.

It makes a point.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Free Vulcan

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Pulled the Cruz quotes directly from the Congressional record.

Translated Rubio's interview directly from the show's transcript and watched the video just to check the accuracy of the text. I am completely fluent in both Spanish and English.

It's not wrong just because you say so.

I look at legal status and legalization differently, at least in terms of context. Legalization to me implies something permanent, legal status may or may not be that. Not all together different than legalizing marijuana v. not prosecuting possession under certain amounts.

It doesn't seem like he is talking about permanent legal status if he's saying they can apply for that later on.

Now as far as the H1-B's, I disagree with him there. Speeding up the immigration process, in that someone in the pipeline shouldn't have to wait 20 years to become a citizen, I agree with. Increasing immigration, I don't. I assume he meant the former.

It depends on what he meant exactly, but I'm not yet convinced he meant what you said, my take.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I look at legal status and legalization differently, at least in terms of context. Legalization to me implies something permanent, legal status may or may not be that. Not all together different than legalizing marijuana v. not prosecuting possession under certain amounts.

It doesn't seem like he is talking about permanent legal status if he's saying they can apply for that later on.

Now as far as the H1-B's, I disagree with him there. Speeding up the immigration process, in that someone in the pipeline shouldn't have to wait 20 years to become a citizen, I agree with. Increasing immigration, I don't. I assume he meant the former.

It depends on what he meant exactly, but I'm not yet convinced he meant what you said, my take.

He said that they would qualify for LPR status. The acronym stands for Legal Permanent Resident.

"Permanent" kind of means permanent, don't you think?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Quote
“Ted Cruz was pointing out that the proponents of the immigration bill have repeatedly claimed their ‘principle objective’ was to guarantee LPR [Lawful Permanent Resident] status and bring people out of the shadows,” Cruz campaign spokesman Brian Phillips told us via email. “If that were true, Cruz argued, they should have no objection to removing the pathway to citizenship since Cruz’s amendment doesn’t address the very thing they said they wanted most. That is not tantamount to saying Cruz supports LPR status and he never supported the underlying bill. Cruz is purposely isolating citizenship to prove a point.
   
“Cruz’s strategy here is to expose that the proponent’s real goal is not to provide legal status as they claimed, but, in fact, to guarantee those here illegally a pathway to citizenship,” Phillips stated. “That every Democrat and member of the Gang of 8 voted to oppose Cruz’s amendment proves their claims about the ‘principle objective’ were false. They were unwilling to give up citizenship to get what they claimed they wanted because citizenship was the whole point of the Gang of Eight bill.”

Can Phillips point to any instances in which Cruz tipped his hand that this was not a plan he actually proposed, but was a legislative strategy to make a point?
Well, no, Phillips said. “We were not trying to let on our legislative strategy.”

We couldn’t find any instances of Cruz explicitly saying that he opposed legalization, either before or after the amendment (until, of course, the debate on Dec. 15). On the campaign trail, Cruz has not been particularly forthcoming about what specifically he would do in regard to the immigrants in the country illegally. On most occasions when asked about it, Cruz simply answered that that was an issue that could only be taken up after the border is secured.

And so his comment during the debate that “I do not intend to support legalization” was his most definitive answer to the question to date.

Indeed, in the immigration plan outlined on Cruz’s campaign website, there is no mention of legalization for those currently in the country illegally. To the contrary, the plan states Cruz’s commitment to “[r]estore our commitment to enforcement and public safety and the Rule of Law by rededicating DHS [Department of Homeland Security] to fully enforcing the law, including through deportations and returns.”

In an interview after the debate, CNN’s Jake Tapper again asked what Cruz would do with those currently living in the country illegally.

“I would enforce the law,” Cruz said, stopping short of endorsing plans like Trump’s to deport all people living in the country illegally. “And existing law provides what you do. You start by securing the borders, so you’re not — if you have a sinking ship, the first thing you do is fill the hole so that you don’t have people coming back in. The second thing you do is you start deporting illegal, criminal illegal aliens.”

Cruz has certainly been consistent in his opposition to a path to citizenship for those now living in the country illegally. And he now says definitely that he also would not support legalization of those immigrants. And as we said earlier, we’ll leave it up to you to decide if he once supported legalization as a political compromise, and now disavows it, or if he was merely employing a legislative ploy to expose the motivations of his opponents.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/12/did-cruz-support-legalization/

I believe that to be the truth of the matter!  Others will of course draw their own conclusions!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 06:15:08 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien