Author Topic: Trumping himself: Has the Donald gone too far in calling Iraq war ‘a big fat mistake’? (how to stymie Donald Trump)  (Read 12029 times)

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Offline Paladin

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"As a very observant member of this forum wrote a few months' back, Trump isn't running as only a Republican.

He may be registered as a Republican.
He may be filling out the forms for Republican primaries, dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

But he's running as a third-party candidate "within the Republican edifice", so to speak.

So anyone can fall within his sights, regardless of which side of the political aisle they're from.

And during this political cycle, Republican voters are -more angry- at the elected Republicans and party hacks on their own side, than they are at the democrats.

Reagan's "11th commandment" may have been true in 1980, but times have changed. The Republican base knows as a matter of course that the democrats are the enemy. It sticks in their craw that too many elected Republicans do nothing to oppose them.

Trump understands that, uses it to his advantage, and that's why he's winning".[/quote]

Excellent explanation for Trump's appeal, Fishrrman. I don't think the anti-Trumpsters on here get that most salient feature of his candidacy.

I would like to also point out that Sanders is running as a Democrat but for Congressional and electoral purposes is an Independent. I find it amusing no one representing the Dems, not even Hillary, ever brings that up or seems to care much. We live in crazy times.
Members of the anti-Trump cabal: Now that Mr Trump has sewn up the nomination, I want you to know I feel your pain.

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I'd say that if one doesn't like the GOP, conservative thought, or Republican politicians...

... then the Democrat party is the way to go.

Offline aligncare

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Donald Trump has been a registered Republican since 1987, except for a 5-year period when he switched registration in 2004 to democrats, and then back to republican in 2009 (the period when Hillary Clinton was senator from New York, Donald Trump's home turf).

Since the mainstream media thinks I'm brain dead for supporting Trump I'll struggle to do the math:

2016 – 1987 = 29 – 5 = 24 years. Donald Trump has been a registered Republican for 24 years.

Of course, the really intelligent common core math wizards here know the equation is dead wrong and that Donald Trump was actually a "democrat since the day before yesterday."

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Offline MACVSOG68

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"As a very observant member of this forum wrote a few months' back, Trump isn't running as only a Republican.

He may be registered as a Republican.
He may be filling out the forms for Republican primaries, dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

But he's running as a third-party candidate "within the Republican edifice", so to speak.

So anyone can fall within his sights, regardless of which side of the political aisle they're from.

And during this political cycle, Republican voters are -more angry- at the elected Republicans and party hacks on their own side, than they are at the democrats.

Reagan's "11th commandment" may have been true in 1980, but times have changed. The Republican base knows as a matter of course that the democrats are the enemy. It sticks in their craw that too many elected Republicans do nothing to oppose them.

Trump understands that, uses it to his advantage, and that's why he's winning".

Excellent explanation for Trump's appeal, Fishrrman. I don't think the anti-Trumpsters on here get that most salient feature of his candidacy.

I would like to also point out that Sanders is running as a Democrat but for Congressional and electoral purposes is an Independent. I find it amusing no one representing the Dems, not even Hillary, ever brings that up or seems to care much. We live in crazy times.

You're right, both sides bases have been highly critical of their parties.  Sanders has suddenly made socialism sound good because anyone with a brain sees the fragile economy and the future job prospects for their children and grandchildren.  Trump has capitalized on concerns of the right over immigration, Islam...and the economy.  Neither would accomplish much of what they claim as their agendas as they are as you point out, third party candidates. 

I will however say that Republicans hardly cave in to Obama.  During Obama's term, there have been more cloture votes than the rest of the presidents in the past 50 years combined.  Republicans have stopped a huge number of Democrat introduced bills after a first reading.  The only reason Republicans couldn't impact or otherwise block Obamacare was through Reid's manipulation of the process, and was further protected by the Roberts Court.  Sequestration slowed spending down, and total spending has decreased over the past four years both in real dollars and as a percentage of GDP.  Defense has been protected far more than it would have under a Democrat Congress.  And of course gun control under the Democrats...?

When giving Republicans a total grade at least consider what they have stopped or slowed down.  It hasn't been everything, but the meme that there's no difference between the parties simply isn't so.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Longiron

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It was Trump bringing up the Bush years. It is Trump making outlandish statements that GWB purposely lied about WMDs in Iraq. That is totally different than he was mistaken about WMDs and you and Happy know that. I have no problem, by-the-way, talking about the Bush years.

Lets talk about the BUSH YEARS? Stones book is coming out soon and it will not be pretty. If not true you will see the lawsuits but no lawsuits it must be true?

 :whistle:


http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-jeb-bush-drug-scandal-revealed-this-changes-everything/

Offline truth_seeker

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I will however say that Republicans hardly cave in to Obama.  During Obama's term, there have been more cloture votes than the rest of the presidents in the past 50 years combined.  Republicans have stopped a huge number of Democrat introduced bills after a first reading.  The only reason Republicans couldn't impact or otherwise block Obamacare was through Reid's manipulation of the process, and was further protected by the Roberts Court.  Sequestration slowed spending down, and total spending has decreased over the past four years both in real dollars and as a percentage of GDP.  Defense has been protected far more than it would have under a Democrat Congress.  And of course gun control under the Democrats...?

Math and logic challenged contemporary conservatives hardly care for the facts. That would get in the way of their fury, and without their fury they lose their identities.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline massadvj

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I do not support Trump.  The man scares the hell out of me.  But I do agree that the Iraq war was "a big, fat mistake." 

Offline sneakypete

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2016 – 1987 = 29 – 5 = 24 years. Donald Trump has been a registered Republican for 24 years.



A NYC Republican. They are not actual Republicans or they would never get elected. I don't even consider them to be Americans.

The truth is,neither do they. They consider themselves to be "citizens of the world".
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 05:29:03 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Lets talk about the BUSH YEARS? Stones book is coming out soon and it will not be pretty. If not true you will see the lawsuits but no lawsuits it must be true?

 :whistle:


http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-jeb-bush-drug-scandal-revealed-this-changes-everything/

On Roger Stone:

"Stone was for many years a lobbyist for Donald Trump on behalf of his casino business [24] and was also involved in opposing expanded casino gambling in New York State, a position that brought him into conflict with Governor George Pataki.[25]

In 1996, Stone resigned from a post as a volunteer spokesman in Senator Bob Dole's campaign for president after The National Enquirer wrote that Stone had placed ads and pictures in racy swingers publications and a website seeking sexual partners for himself and his second wife, Nydia Bertrane Stone, whom he married in Las Vegas in the 1992. Stone initially denied the report.[11][12] On the Good Morning America program he said: "An exhaustive investigation now indicates that a domestic employee who I discharged for substance abuse on the second time that we learned that he had a drug problem is the perpetrator who had access to my home, access to my computer, access to my password, access to my postage meter, access to my post-office box key".[11] In a 2008 interview with The New Yorker Stone admitted that the ads were authentic.[26]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Stone#Books

Sounds like the guy has a lot of credibility... :thud:
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Politics4us

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I love how all of the former Democrats on this board are criticizing Donald Trump for once supporting Democrats.

Offline aligncare

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I love how all of the former Democrats on this board are criticizing Donald Trump for once supporting Democrats.

Battle lines are hardened. I don't expect any minds will change from here on. It appears only three, possibly four (viable) contenders will be left standing after South Carolina.


Offline sneakypete

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Battle lines are hardened. I don't expect any minds will change from here on. It appears only three, possibly four (viable) contenders will be left standing after South Carolina.

I think they will change once the primaries are over and a candidate is picked. Whoever it ends up being will get all the Party People votes,regardless of who it is.

Maybe even a few of the independent actual conservative votes,depending on who is selected for the VP slot. I suspect that battle is going to be the epic behind the scenes battle played out this time around.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Bigun

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"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Battle lines are hardened. I don't expect any minds will change from here on. It appears only three, possibly four (viable) contenders will be left standing after South Carolina.

You and several others here seem to be in complete agreement with Harry Reid!

Harry Reid says Donald Trump is his man in GOP race

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/27/harry-reid-says-trumps-his-man-gop-race/
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline musiclady

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I love how all of the former Democrats on this board are criticizing Donald Trump for once supporting Democrats.

Well, I've been a conservative Republican my entire life who never supported a Democrat in my entire life, and I'm criticizing Donald Trump for supporting Democrats NOW.

Anyone who thinks his liberalism is in the past, isn't paying attention.

The man is a liberal who is fooling the bejeebers out of people who really want him to be what he is not.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Yeah............ and the guy on the left is a close Clinton family friend.   **nononono*

Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Scottftlc

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I supported George W Bush twice. The Iraq War, in particular the idea of bringing democracy to an Islamic majority dictatorship, was perhaps the most ill-informed, ill-advised, disastrous foreign adventure in the history of the United States.  Many might say it really became disastrous after Obama took office.  That is a cop out, it lost the support of the American people long before that - it helped elect Obama - and the concept of establishing democracy there had been shown to be as ludicrous an idea as feared at the outset.  In the back of my mind is another common theme of the day - that Bush was trying to correct an oversight of his father, and avenging his father for Saddam's assassination attempt.  That it was "family business" and he used the U.S. Military and the themes of democracy in the Middle East and WMDs to finish his family's grudge.

It was one of two monumental failures of Bush that must leave him,in my mind, as a complete and utter failure - a disastrous failure unlike any other Republican president, perhaps including Nixon and Hoover.  Bush had his failures of domestic policy like No Child as well as a few successes, but his domestic policy will be forever tainted by him taking his eye off the tremendous, disastrous dysfunction building in the U.S. Economy in his second term.  After pulling the country out of the relatively tame dot com bubble in his first term, his administration completely missed, ignored even, the monstrous dysfunction building from derivatives and years of shoddy loan practices in the home mortgage market.  It is like Christie and his bridge screwing with commuters, if you have an epic fail where people live they will make you pay at the ballot...and they did by turning to a far leftist because they were sick of him and his party.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 07:23:36 pm by Scottftlc »
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Offline sneakypete

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I supported George W Bush twice. The Iraq War, in particular the idea of bringing democracy to an Islamic majority dictatorship, was perhaps the most ill-informed, ill-advised, disastrous foreign adventure in the history of the United States.  Many might say it really became disastrous after Obama took office.  That is a cop out, it lost the support of the American people long before that - it helped elect Obama - and the concept of establishing democracy there had been shown to be as ludicrous an idea as feared at the outset.  In the back of my mind is another common theme of the day - that Bush was trying to correct an oversight of his father, and avenging his father for Saddam's assassination attempt.  That it was "family business" and he used the U.S. Military and the themes of democracy in the Middle East and WMDs to finish his family's grudge.

It was one of two monumental failures of Bush that must leave him,in my mind, as a complete and utter failure - a disastrous failure unlike any other Republican president, perhaps including Nixon and Hoover.  Bush had his failures of domestic policy like No Child as well as a few successes, but his domestic policy will be forever tainted by him taking his eye off the tremendous, disastrous dysfunction building in the U.S. Economy in his second term.  After pulling the country out of the relatively tame dot com bubble in his first term, his administration completely missed, ignored even, the monstrous dysfunction building from derivatives and years of shoddy loan practices in the home mortgage market.  It is like Christie and his bridge screwing with commuters, if you have an epic fail where people live they will make you pay at the ballot...and they did by turning to a far leftist because they were sick of him and his party.

Quoted in full because it needs to be carved in stone and put on display somewhere future generations of school children can see it.

I got banned from FR for the final time by being against that dumbass war.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Bigun

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I supported George W Bush twice. The Iraq War, in particular the idea of bringing democracy to an Islamic majority dictatorship, was perhaps the most ill-informed, ill-advised, disastrous foreign adventure in the history of the United States.  Many might say it really became disastrous after Obama took office.  That is a cop out, it lost the support of the American people long before that - it helped elect Obama - and the concept of establishing democracy there had been shown to be as ludicrous an idea as feared at the outset.  In the back of my mind is another common theme of the day - that Bush was trying to correct an oversight of his father, and avenging his father for Saddam's assassination attempt.  That it was "family business" and he used the U.S. Military and the themes of democracy in the Middle East and WMDs to finish his family's grudge.

It was one of two monumental failures of Bush that must leave him,in my mind, as a complete and utter failure - a disastrous failure unlike any other Republican president, perhaps including Nixon and Hoover.  Bush had his failures of domestic policy like No Child as well as a few successes, but his domestic policy will be forever tainted by him taking his eye off the tremendous, disastrous dysfunction building in the U.S. Economy in his second term.  After pulling the country out of the relatively tame dot com bubble in his first term, his administration completely missed, ignored even, the monstrous dysfunction building from derivatives and years of shoddy loan practices in the home mortgage market.  It is like Christie and his bridge screwing with commuters, if you have an epic fail where people live they will make you pay at the ballot...and they did by turning to a far leftist because they were sick of him and his party.

That is just so totally wrong on so many fronts I'm not even going to bother with responding to it.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

HAPPY2BME

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Lets talk about the BUSH YEARS? Stones book is coming out soon and it will not be pretty. If not true you will see the lawsuits but no lawsuits it must be true?

 :whistle:


http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/bombshell-jeb-bush-drug-scandal-revealed-this-changes-everything/

==========================================

Why Donald Trump's vicious attack on George W. Bush was so brutally effective — and brilliant

.

HAPPY2BME

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I got banned from FR for the final time by being against that dumbass war.

===============================

Where do we send the flowers to?

Offline sneakypete

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===============================

Where do we send the flowers to?

Was that supposed to be clever,or just snarky?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Fishrrman

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The G.W. Bush Iraq war was a didactic experience for both America and The West.

Going into it, from a relatively conservative viewpoint, it seemed like "the right thing to do".

That is, go in, defeat an enemy Army, remove the dictator that controlled the army, restore order, attempt to set up the framework for free elections and a psuedo-democratic government.

Looked good enough, but...
... the lesson to be learned was that this cannot work in islamic nations and with islamic peoples.

But it worked in Germany after World War II, right?
How could it not work in Iraq?

Well, what did we actually DO in Germany after WWII?
At the core, we "de-Nazified" the country -- literally purged it of the political (and almost religious) zeitgeist, to the point of putting its leaders on trial for "crimes against humanity".

What kind of analogy could be drawn, comparing that to what needs to be done with islam and the countries under its thrall?

Offline Bigun

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Was that supposed to be clever,or just snarky?

He's just pointing out that many here before you had the same experience for whatever reason.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Sanguine

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The G.W. Bush Iraq war was a didactic experience for both America and The West.

Going into it, from a relatively conservative viewpoint, it seemed like "the right thing to do".

That is, go in, defeat an enemy Army, remove the dictator that controlled the army, restore order, attempt to set up the framework for free elections and a psuedo-democratic government.

Looked good enough, but...
... the lesson to be learned was that this cannot work in islamic nations and with islamic peoples.

But it worked in Germany after World War II, right?
How could it not work in Iraq?

Well, what did we actually DO in Germany after WWII?
At the core, we "de-Nazified" the country -- literally purged it of the political (and almost religious) zeitgeist, to the point of putting its leaders on trial for "crimes against humanity".

What kind of analogy could be drawn, comparing that to what needs to be done with islam and the countries under its thrall?

Great response.   :patriot: