Author Topic: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims  (Read 10544 times)

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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2015, 07:09:35 pm »
And yet, do you ever stop and think that many of his followers know he's merely saying it to draw a reaction?  That we're not the least bit concerned he'll ever try such a stunt?

He's running like a contestant on HIS Apprentice.  He's a master of manipulation of the media.

He's going to win.

Do you ever stop and think that you just described yourself as a lemming?
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2015, 07:10:14 pm »
Come on, man!   Lighten up.   

I'm your biggest fan, Sink!   :beer:

I never lighten up on idiocy.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2015, 07:18:46 pm »
Sinkspur:

You continue to underestimate Donald Trump.  And you're in a state of denial.

He's busy winning a nomination right now.   And doing a splendid job I may add.  A lesser man would have been mincemeat by now for saying the same words.   And yet his popularity is rising.

His immediate goal is to rid the field of competition. 

If saying stupid sh*t works.....you say stupid sh*t!!   Crazy, isn't it??   :laugh:
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2015, 07:25:16 pm »
sinkspur wrote above:
"If we force people of a certain faith to carry special ID, track them & open a government agency espousing a favored faith, aren't we what we hate?"

No.

Instead, it demonstrates that in extraordinary times, we have the courage and the intestinal fortitude to use extraordinary measures in order to preserve ourselves and ensure that our nation, our culture, our faiths, and our race have the right to a future.

Interestingly, kevindavis above wrote:
"I happen to [be] quite fond of the Constitution and yes it is a suicide pact."

If the Constitution is (as you kevin cites in his own words) a "suicide pact", then reasonable men, acting reasonably must realize that it must be either re-worded so as to no longer promote our own "suicide", or, in lieu of that certain parts of it must be temporarily suspended until at such times it is safe to re-enable them back into full force.

Hence, my addition of text into the end of the First Amendment, as posted above.

If we don't put restrictions on at least one entire group of people (the muslims), we will arrive at a point in time (due to accelerated acts of terrorism and muslim-inspired violence within our own borders), that we'll see the government -- out of "fairness" -- move to put civil restrictions on ALL of us.

Just as the TSA does today at airports.

Right_in_Virginia wrote above:
"Most Americans, including our Founders, prefer life and will act to protect it.   So, no, you (fill in the blank),  the Constitution is NOT a suicide pact."

Could you be thinking of Jefferson's line, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ...?
The very first word in that famous saying is "life".
Without that entity first, there can be no liberty (second) or happiness (third).
We must preserve the life of ourselves and our nation first -- without it, nothing else matters.
We also should preserve liberty for those who will respect its tenets.

Therein lies the rub. The Conundrum.

islam DOES NOT "respect" the liberty of others, indeed seeks to subjugate such liberties of those whom it does not kill outright. Will anyone in this forum deny this truth?

Given the opportunity, muslims will do here what they're doing in Europe.
So long as they receive the same Constitutional guarantees that the rest of us enjoy, they will husband such protections until the time comes when they have achieved enough strength with which to to wrest our freedoms from us.

This is why -- at least insofar as islam and islam's goals are concerned -- our Constitution -IS- in danger of transmogrifying into a suicide pact and in time it WILL be used against us.

So we must act to preclude that from happening.

I'm not happy to have to do this, but it must be done.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2015, 07:33:48 pm »
Trump said he would not rule it out. That means he would consider doing something that no court would ever allow him to do.   Is that responsible to even posit as a hypothetical?

Just as responsible as to not rule out the use of nuclear weapons.  It would never have been "responsible" to nuke Moscow or Beijing or Baghdad, so why did we not rule it out? We certainly were not at the time those questions were regularly asked in an existential crisis...even during the Cuban Missile Crisis, as it turns out from our comfortable future view.  (The answer is because you do not respond to hypotheticals from reporters looking for juice that way.) Courts may or may not do something - we've learned that very clearly in recent years, they are a very inventive bunch, those courts.  Answering the hypothetical with a specific is simply ill-advised.  Saying that under no situation, regardless of how extreme, we would ever take the action of ID-ing Muslims, is telling them where our limits are and exactly where our line is for committing national suicide.  Even the courts, if faced with committing national suicide or taking some specific extreme action, will side with the extreme action.

I think your place Sink...and I totally respect it...is that you cannot conceive of a threat from Muslims that is truly existential - that they could somehow overwhelm and destroy our nation and turn it into Sharia West.  You cannot perceive that even in the most wildly remote case as possible.  I have a slightly different perspective, I consider that possibility extremely remote, so unlikely as it is not something I would ever base policy on - at this viewpoint in time.  But I can conceive of situations in which I would change my mind about that.  I do believe they are possible, regardless of how remote they appear now.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 07:36:42 pm by Scottftlc »
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2015, 07:34:58 pm »
Sometimes it takes 'tough love'.

 :whistle:

Especially when someone is showing clear signs of TDS.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2015, 07:40:47 pm »
sinkspur wrote above:
"If we force people of a certain faith to carry special ID, track them & open a government agency espousing a favored faith, aren't we what we hate?"

No.

Instead, it demonstrates that in extraordinary times, we have the courage and the intestinal fortitude to use extraordinary measures in order to preserve ourselves and ensure that our nation, our culture, our faiths, and our race have the right to a future.

Interestingly, kevindavis above wrote:
"I happen to [be] quite fond of the Constitution and yes it is a suicide pact."

If the Constitution is (as you kevin cites in his own words) a "suicide pact", then reasonable men, acting reasonably must realize that it must be either re-worded so as to no longer promote our own "suicide", or, in lieu of that certain parts of it must be temporarily suspended until at such times it is safe to re-enable them back into full force.

Hence, my addition of text into the end of the First Amendment, as posted above.

If we don't put restrictions on at least one entire group of people (the muslims), we will arrive at a point in time (due to accelerated acts of terrorism and muslim-inspired violence within our own borders), that we'll see the government -- out of "fairness" -- move to put civil restrictions on ALL of us.

Just as the TSA does today at airports.

Right_in_Virginia wrote above:
"Most Americans, including our Founders, prefer life and will act to protect it.   So, no, you (fill in the blank),  the Constitution is NOT a suicide pact."

Could you be thinking of Jefferson's line, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ...?
The very first word in that famous saying is "life".
Without that entity first, there can be no liberty (second) or happiness (third).
We must preserve the life of ourselves and our nation first -- without it, nothing else matters.
We also should preserve liberty for those who will respect its tenets.

Therein lies the rub. The Conundrum.

islam DOES NOT "respect" the liberty of others, indeed seeks to subjugate such liberties of those whom it does not kill outright. Will anyone in this forum deny this truth?

Given the opportunity, muslims will do here what they're doing in Europe.
So long as they receive the same Constitutional guarantees that the rest of us enjoy, they will husband such protections until the time comes when they have achieved enough strength with which to to wrest our freedoms from us.

This is why -- at least insofar as islam and islam's goals are concerned -- our Constitution -IS- in danger of transmogrifying into a suicide pact and in time it WILL be used against us.

So we must act to preclude that from happening.

I'm not happy to have to do this, but it must be done.

Brilliant post. Download this to your hard drive, folks. This one's a keeper.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2015, 07:42:44 pm »
Sinkspur:

You continue to underestimate Donald Trump.  And you're in a state of denial.

He's busy winning a nomination right now.   And doing a splendid job I may add.  A lesser man would have been mincemeat by now for saying the same words.   And yet his popularity is rising.

His immediate goal is to rid the field of competition. 

If saying stupid sh*t works.....you say stupid sh*t!!   Crazy, isn't it??   :laugh:

He's says stupid sh*t because he knows what his audience laps up.

It's not Trump that's the problem. I'm realizing that.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline aligncare

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2015, 07:48:08 pm »
He's says stupid sh*t because he knows what his audience laps up.

It's not Trump that's the problem. I'm realizing that.

So, again you bring it back to personal insults. Classy, real classy.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2015, 07:50:58 pm »
Just as responsible as to not rule out the use of nuclear weapons.  It would never have been "responsible" to nuke Moscow or Beijing or Baghdad, so why did we not rule it out? We certainly were not at the time those questions were regularly asked in an existential crisis...even during the Cuban Missile Crisis, as it turns out from our comfortable future view.  (The answer is because you do not respond to hypotheticals from reporters looking for juice that way.) Courts may or may not do something - we've learned that very clearly in recent years, they are a very inventive bunch, those courts.  Answering the hypothetical with a specific is simply ill-advised.  Saying that under no situation, regardless of how extreme, we would ever take the action of ID-ing Muslims, is telling them where our limits are and exactly where our line is for committing national suicide.  Even the courts, if faced with committing national suicide or taking some specific extreme action, will side with the extreme action.

I think your place Sink...and I totally respect it...is that you cannot conceive of a threat from Muslims that is truly existential - that they could somehow overwhelm and destroy our nation and turn it into Sharia West.  You cannot perceive that even in the most wildly remote case as possible.  I have a slightly different perspective, I consider that possibility extremely remote, so unlikely as it is not something I would ever base policy on - at this viewpoint in time.  But I can conceive of situations in which I would change my mind about that.  I do believe they are possible, regardless of how remote they appear now.

I cannot think of an existential threat from gun owners either, yet the precedent that would be set by singling out a group of Americans based on an external classification and forcing an identifier on them should trouble every gun owner in America. 

Just wait until they come after you.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2015, 07:51:46 pm »
So, again you bring it back to personal insults. Classy, real classy.

Oh come on. You support the King of Personal Insults!!
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2015, 07:59:12 pm »
I cannot think of an existential threat from gun owners either, yet the precedent that would be set by singling out a group of Americans based on an external classification and forcing an identifier on them should trouble every gun owner in America. 

Just wait until they come after you.

Yes, absolutely, and no one has proposed doing this today.  But that's not the same thing as saying that you can conceive of a threat so great that such extreme actions might need to be taken to address a very specific situation.  American gun owners would never be such a threat to the nation at large (the well-guarded by arms Obama has a different, totally political, view I'm sure). An extreme situation posing a threat to national existence coming from gun owners would never pass the smell test.  One coming from a Muslim invasion - if such a thing materialized - might be a very different matter.

The "they come after you" that people are concerned with is the "they" murdering thousands in Europe and the Middle East, bringing it here.  That is why we are having this discussion - not some hypothetical created by precedent, but something very real and tangible that is creating tremendous fear today.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 08:03:08 pm by Scottftlc »
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline aligncare

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2015, 08:03:19 pm »
Oh come on. You support the King of Personal Insults!!

You slam Trump for personal insults, and yet you employ personal insults...your head buzzing from cognitive dissonance, yet?

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2015, 08:05:14 pm »
You slam Trump for personal insults, and yet you employ personal insults...your head buzzing from cognitive dissonance, yet?

No.It was YOU slamming ME for personal insults.  You're the Trump lover.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Paladin

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2015, 08:06:47 pm »
There are some on here who will not understand until we have our own Paris, and maybe not even then.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2015, 08:07:39 pm »
Yes, absolutely, and no one has proposed doing this today.  But that's not the same thing as saying that you can conceive of a threat so great that such extreme actions might need to be taken to address a very specific situation.  American gun owners would never be such a threat to the nation at large (the well-guarded by arms Obama has a different, totally political, view I'm sure). An extreme situation posing a threat to national existence coming from gun owners would never pass the smell test.  One coming from a Muslim invasion - if such a thing materialized - might be a very different matter.

The "they come after you" that people are concerned with is the "they" murdering thousands in Europe and the Middle East, bringing it here.  That is why we are having this discussion - not some hypothetical created by precedent, but something very real and tangible that is creating tremendous fear today.

I want you to read what you wrote-again-and tell me, with a straight face, that gun owners would never be perceived as a threat to national existence.  Never?

I'm done arguing this.  It was a stupid thing for Trump to say and no qualification of it will justify it.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2015, 08:08:56 pm »
There are some on here who will not understand until we have our own Paris, and maybe not even then.

We had Paris, times ten, in 2001 and nobody even remotely suggested IDing Muslim-American citizens.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2015, 08:20:13 pm »
I want you to read what you wrote-again-and tell me, with a straight face, that gun owners would never be perceived as a threat to national existence.  Never?

I'm done arguing this.  It was a stupid thing for Trump to say and no qualification of it will justify it.

Other than in the view of radicals like Obama and his political faction - never.  They are NOW perceived that way by that political faction and if they had the power they would not be stopped - precedent or not - from confiscation.  Worrying about the impact of a precedent from an extreme action needed to preserve national existence on an internal political issue is saying that you would accept the destruction of the nation in order to save the nation...you have to save it by killing it.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2015, 08:21:03 pm »
We had Paris, times ten, in 2001 and nobody even remotely suggested IDing Muslim-American citizens.

And nobody has now.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2015, 08:39:49 pm »
Especially when someone is showing clear signs of TDS.

I think you need it for RDS.
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Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2015, 11:09:17 pm »
Here's an idea:  let's come up with a nifty yellow star-of-David ID and require Jews to wear it at all times.

Oh, somebody already thought of that about 70 years ago..................

That was the first thing I thought of when reading the title of this thread. Glenn Beck has been warning us of the very real  possibility that we are being lead in the direction of fascism, all for the sake of national security. Fascism won't be forced on us, we will demand it out of a perceived necessity.    Prove me wrong. If we are not in danger of becoming a fascist state, then let me see Trump supporters say Trump is wrong on this one.   Anyone?
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2015, 11:13:47 pm »
That was the first thing I thought of when reading the title of this thread. Glenn Beck has been warning us of the very real  possibility that we are being lead in the direction of fascism, all for the sake of national security. Fascism won't be forced on us, we will demand it out of a perceived necessity.    Prove me wrong. If we are not in danger of becoming a fascist state, then let me see Trump supporters say Trump is wrong on this one.   Anyone?

Oh no.  They'll never say he was wrong. They'll see he was responding to a hypothetical. 

No matter how outrageous or ridiculous, the Donalds will never admit he makes a mistake.
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Offline Paladin

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2015, 11:15:29 pm »
"No matter how outrageous or ridiculous, the Donalds will never admit he makes a mistake."

And you will never admit he is right about anything. So?
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #98 on: November 19, 2015, 11:18:33 pm »

Why do we need to have a conversation about whether the United States is a compassionate country? I thought that question has been settled a long, long time ago?

The conversation today that we need to be having is why aren't our leaders, Obama specifically, caring enough about our own safety and security first, above anyone else's?

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Trump won' rule out database, special ID for Muslims
« Reply #99 on: November 19, 2015, 11:20:46 pm »
"No matter how outrageous or ridiculous, the Donalds will never admit he makes a mistake."

And you will never admit he is right about anything. So?

Because he was a Democrat who voted for Obama until the day before yesterday.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.