Author Topic: Jailed Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Offers 'Remedy' in Same-Sex Marriage License Battle  (Read 3248 times)

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Offline flowers

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/jailed-kentucky-clerk-kim-davis-offers-remedy-sex/story?id=33532686

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Kim Davis thinks she has a solution to her problem.

The Kentucky county clerk, jailed for failing to follow a judge’s orders to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, wants her name removed from the marriage certificates, her attorney Matthew Staver told ABC News.

“She has a very strong conscience and she’s just asking for a simple remedy, and that is, remove her name from the certificate and all will be well,” Staver said. “That simple remedy has simply been ignored by the court and by the governor and that’s what should have been done.

“I think it’s reprehensible that she’s in jail for this when a simple fix could have been easily handled.”

Marriage licenses in Kentucky are required to include an authorization statement of the county clerk issuing the license. Some state lawmakers, as well as the Kentucky County Clerks Association, have suggesting having clerks' names removed from marriage licenses.

Staver said at a news conference this afternoon Davis "has no intention to resign."

“She will never violate her conscience," Staver said to reporters.


Offline flowers

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I see the 2 men that want to get married says her name has to be on the marriage certificate.


Offline jmyrlefuller

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I see the 2 men that want to get married says her name has to be on the marriage certificate.
Do they want the legal marriage or what?
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Offline Fishrrman

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Flowers wrote:
[[ I see the 2 men that want to get married says her name has to be on the marriage certificate. ]]

... and jmyrle replied:
[[ Do they want the legal marriage or what? ]]

That isn't what they want.
They don't care if the marriage is "legal" or not.
What they DO care about is seeing a Christian believer punished for defying them.

Oceander

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You can't have your cake and eat it, too.  You either do your duty as an elected official, and obey your oath to uphold the Constitution, or you resign.  It's as simple as that.

This woman is a lawless twit and should be unceremoniously kicked out of office because she hasn't the wits of a liberal and utterly no respect for her own word.

Online Bigun

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From Thomas Jefferson to William Charles Jarvis, 28 September 1820

Monticello Sep. 28. 20.

I thank you, Sir, for the copy of your Republican which you have been so kind as to send me; and I should have acknoleged it sooner, but that I am just returned home after a long absence. I have not yet had time to read it seriously: but in looking over it cursorily I see much in it to approve, and shall be glad if it shall lead our youth to the practice of thinking on such subjects & for themselves. that it will have this tendency may be expected, and for that reason I feel an urgency to note what I deem an error in it, the more requiring notice as your opinion is strengthened by that of many others. you seem in pages 84. & 148. to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions: a very dangerous doctrine indeed and one which would place us under , Start insertion,the, End, despotism of an Oligarchy. our judges are as honest as other men, and not more so. they have, with others, the same passions for party, for power, and the privileges of their corps. their maxim is ‘boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionim,’ and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life, and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective countroul. the constitution has erected no such single tribunal knowing that, to whatever hands confided, with the corrputions of time & party it’s members would become despots. it has , Start insertion,more wisely, End, made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves. if the legislature fails to pass laws for a census, for paying the judges & other officers of government, for establishing a militia, for naturalisation, as prescribed by the constitution, or if they fail to meet in Congress, the judges cannot issue their Mandamus to them. if the President fails to supply the place of a judge, to appoint other civil or military officers, to issue requisite commissions, the judges cannot force him. they can issue their Mandamus or distringas to no Executive or Legislative officer to enforce the fulfilment of their official duties, any more than the President or legislature may issue orders to the judges or their officers. betrayed by English example, & unaware, as it should seem, of the controul of our constitution in this particular, they have at times overstepped their limit by undertaking to command executive officers in the discharge of their executive duties. but the constitution, in keeping the three departments distinct & independant, restrains the authority of the judges to judiciary organs, as it does the executive & legislative, to executive and legislative organs. the judges certainly have more frequent occasion to act on constitutional questions, because the laws of meum & teum, and of criminal action, forming the great mass of the system of law, constitute their particular department. when the legislative or executive functionaries act unconstitutionally, they are responsible to the people in their elective capacity. the exemption of the judges from that is quite dangerous enough. I know no , Start insertion,safe de, End,pository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves: and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their controul with a wholsome discretion, the remedy is, not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. this is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power. Pardon me, Sir, for this difference of opinion. my personal interest in such questions is entirely extinct; but not my wishes for the longest possible continuance of our government on it’s pure principles. if the three powers maintain their mutual independance on each other, it may last long: but not so if either can assume the authoritie’s of the other. I ask your candid reconsideration of this subject, and am sufficiently sure you will form a candid conclusion. Accept the assurance of my great respect.

Th: Jefferson

http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/98-01-02-1540
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Paladin

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The Founding Fathers did, in fact, place in the Constitution a clause which was suppose to prevent judicial mischief.

Art III, Section 2, part 2: "In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

That, of course, has become an empty safeguard as Congress has never acted on it, even with such dreadful decisions as Dred Scott and Roe v. Wade.

Jefferson recognized the danger of an unrestrained judiciary and did so even before Marbury v. Madison, opposition to which some ascribe to his political quarrels with Marshall. This is not true as I wrote a paper on this subject while in college and showed where Jefferson warned about this several years before Marbury v. Madison.
Members of the anti-Trump cabal: Now that Mr Trump has sewn up the nomination, I want you to know I feel your pain.

Offline raml

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Sad but this country is not a republic anymore nor are any of us free. I don't think there are great men alive today who can stop what is happening. I think there is a lot more to this than just bad government officials. I think this is coming from God and is meant to be and the whole world will soon erupt once again. We haven't learned from history we are repeating it.

Online Bigun

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Kentucky Revised Statutes

KRS Chapter 402

Includes enactments through the 2015 Regular Session

The KRS database was last updated on 09/04/2015


402.005 Definition of marriage.

As used and recognized in the law of the Commonwealth, "marriage" refers only to the
civil status, condition, or relation of one (1) man and one (1) woman united in law for
life, for the discharge to each other and the community of the duties legally incumbent
upon those whose association is founded on the distinction of sex.

Effective: July 15, 1998
History: Created 1998 Ky. Acts ch. 258, sec. 4, effective July 15, 1998.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/chapter.aspx?id=39205
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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The Founding Fathers did, in fact, place in the Constitution a clause which was suppose to prevent judicial mischief.

Art III, Section 2, part 2: "In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

That, of course, has become an empty safeguard as Congress has never acted on it, even with such dreadful decisions as Dred Scott and Roe v. Wade.

Jefferson recognized the danger of an unrestrained judiciary and did so even before Marbury v. Madison, opposition to which some ascribe to his political quarrels with Marshall. This is not true as I wrote a paper on this subject while in college and showed where Jefferson warned about this several years before Marbury v. Madison.

Bears Repeating and some emphasis on a certain part.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Bottom line is that this poor woman is sitting in jail today precisely BECAUSE she was upholding the oath of office she took when sworn in as County Clerk of Rowan County Kentucky!

Here is that oath in black and white:

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"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of ——————— according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God."
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline ABX

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Interesting comments by her lawyer on CNN this morning IF true (emphasis on If).
Apparently Ms. Davis, a Democrat, does not oppose gay marriage. She also wasn't refusing to issue marriage licenses to just gay people but all marriage licenses. Her argument, the ruling took away the authority of her office and rested it with the State therefore, she wanted her name removed from the certificates and they be issued by the State, not the clerk.

Oceander

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Interesting comments by her lawyer on CNN this morning IF true (emphasis on If).
Apparently Ms. Davis, a Democrat, does not oppose gay marriage. She also wasn't refusing to issue marriage licenses to just gay people but all marriage licenses. Her argument, the ruling took away the authority of her office and rested it with the State therefore, she wanted her name removed from the certificates and they be issued by the State, not the clerk.


And if you believe that, then I have some very nice, gently used, one-owner urban infrastructure in Brooklyn that I'm willing to let you have for a song (at least a $1 million tune, that is).

Godzilla

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/jailed-kentucky-clerk-kim-davis-offers-remedy-sex/story?id=33532686

If the laws of Kentucky require the county clerk signature on government issued licenses, then this cannot happen as long as she is the county clerk.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 07:23:52 pm by Godzilla »

Offline mrclose

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You can't have your cake and eat it, too.  You either do your duty as an elected official, and obey your oath to uphold the Constitution, or you resign.  It's as simple as that.

This woman is a lawless twit and should be unceremoniously kicked out of office because she hasn't the wits of a liberal and utterly no respect for her own word.
Mr King was a "lawless twit" in your eyes I suppose?

Martin Luther King Jr. said:
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“An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law”
"Hell is empty, all the devil's are here!"
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Godzilla

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Mr King was a "lawless twit" in your eyes I suppose?

Martin Luther King Jr. said:

Using a quote from a man trying to expand the rights denied to others, and using it as justification *TO* deny the rights of others, is so incredibly Orwellian.


Offline mrclose

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Using a quote from a man trying to expand the rights denied to others, and using it as justification *TO* deny the rights of others, is so incredibly Orwellian.
I posted the quote quite clearly.
Why didn't you read it?
"Hell is empty, all the devil's are here!"
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Offline truth_seeker

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Using a quote from a man trying to expand the rights denied to others, and using it as justification *TO* deny the rights of others, is so incredibly Orwellian.
Eisenhower had to send federal troops, to desegregate the Little Rock schools in face of objections by the usual suspects.

The Southern Baptist convention had been founded in 1845 as pro-slavery, for example.

The present hostility to homosexuals in general and regarding "marriage" descends from but is not limited to such "spiritual" ancestry.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/21/us/baptist-group-votes-to-repent-stand-on-slaves.html

Here is the "timely" action of the nation's largest denomination:

Baptist Group Votes to Repent Stand on Slaves

By GUSTAV NIEBUHR 

Published: June 21, 1995

ATLANTA, June 20—  Members of the Southern Baptist Convention, America's largest Protestant denomination and one founded in large part in defense of slavery, voted overwhelmingly in their annual meeting here today to "repent of racism of which we have been guilty" and to apologize to and ask forgiveness from "all African-Americans."
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:24:46 pm by truth_seeker »
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Godzilla

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I posted the quote quite clearly.
Why didn't you read it?

Oh, I did.

Why are you trying to justify denying others the same rights you enjoy?  Why are you using his quotes to justify it? 

Offline olde north church

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Rowan County is home to 30 churches.  25 of which are Evangelical.  It is also in the middle of nowhere.  What were these two men seeking to get married in this area at this time with cameras?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline flowers

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Rowan County is home to 30 churches.  25 of which are Evangelical.  It is also in the middle of nowhere.  What were these two men seeking to get married in this area at this time with cameras?
To get the reaction they are getting. Jail anyone who won't get their mind right about gays. Religion is evil, bigoted against the gays. I heard a replay of the 2 men confronting Kim. One of them said he would never let his kids learn to live the way she did.


Offline olde north church

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To get the reaction they are getting. Jail anyone who won't get their mind right about gays. Religion is evil, bigoted against the gays. I heard a replay of the 2 men confronting Kim. One of them said he would never let his kids learn to live the way she did.

Again, why here?  Not Knoxville, Louisville, Frankfort?  Something stinks.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline flowers

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Again, why here?  Not Knoxville, Louisville, Frankfort?  Something stinks.
War on religion, pure and simple.


Online Bigun

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The best constitutional argument for #KimDavis has nothing to do with Religious Freedom.

Here's what no one mainstream is talking about:

The Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

This is the concept of federalism--that the federal government "the United States" only has the limited power expressly granted by the Constitution. Thus, any power NOT specifically granted is expressly reserved to the States individually.

The Constitution is actually silent on the issue of federal authority on marriage licensing. Thus, the Tenth Amendment says that power is reserved to the States.

The State of Kentucky has a First Amendment (passed legally in 2004) to its state constitution that says, "Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Kentucky. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized."

The federal Supreme Court has no actual authority to legislate or create law. It can only (in a very limited capacity) issue opinions on whether laws on state government powers conflict with the text of the Constitution--essentially, that a state is usurping power granted to the federal government.

The Kentucky Constitution stands. Kim Davis was upholding her oath to follow the law in her state, and she followed the Kentucky Constitution, with power on licensing (or not licensing) civil marriages that is reserved to the state.

But the Religious Freedom issue is more sexy, and so by arguing that issue, it becomes a value debate and we are (DANGEROUSLY!) conceding that the federal government has authority where it doesn't--the Tenth Amendment left that power to the states.

And the State of Kentucky has spoken.

Unless and until the U.S. Constitution is amended to specifically grant the federal government power to license marriages, we must defer to state power.

Jenna Ellis, Esq.

I agree with every single word she wrote.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline truth_seeker

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Under that concept of "federalism" we could still have slavery, segregation, discrimination, forbid mixed marriages, etc.

It is real simple. The USSC is the highest court in the nation. They ruled that same-sex marriage is legal, regardless of what some churches might think.

Several churches supported slavery, too. But in the end they did not prevail.

Instead of considering the same-sex issue an attack on Christianity, those denominations might consider if it is truly "Christian" to wind up on the exclusive side of issue, after issue; e.g. slavery, segregation, mixed marriage, and now same-sex unions.

The irony to me is that these people and their institutions would be attracted to the Republican party, and to conservatism, since the GOP started out in opposition to the very attitudes and practices like these.

My mother's ancestors were among the earliest Abolitionists in the country, including Pastor Elijah Parish Lovejoy, killed in 1837 at Alton, Illinois for his anti-slavery writings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah_Parish_Lovejoy
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 07:03:38 pm by truth_seeker »
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