Author Topic: Jailed Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Offers 'Remedy' in Same-Sex Marriage License Battle  (Read 3247 times)

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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Under that concept of "federalism" we could still have slavery, segregation, discrimination, forbid mixed marriages, etc.

It is real simple. The USSC is the highest court in the nation. They ruled that same-sex marriage is legal, regardless of what some churches might think.

Several churches supported slavery, too. But in the end they did not prevail.

Instead of considering the same-sex issue an attack on Christianity, those denominations might consider if it is truly "Christian" to wind up on the exclusive side of issue, after issue; e.g. slavery, segregation, mixed marriage, and now same-sex unions.
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Offline mrclose

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Oh, I did.

Why are you trying to justify denying others the same rights you enjoy?  Why are you using his quotes to justify it?
What rights?
Sodomites can marry.
No one is stopping them.

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DC...perfect.
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"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Offline mrclose

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"It is a very dangerous doctrine to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions. It is one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."

Thomas Jefferson
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Online Right_in_Virginia

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This may be a bit too esoteric for some ....   :whistle:

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This may be a bit too esoteric for some ....   :whistle:

Yeah....seems a few of my recent posts have puzzled a few here. 

All for people standing up for their chosen faith.  But, before you run to the defense of a government clerk refusing marriage licenses, you have to have a little empathy for people of a different faith that could do the same to protect their belief system.

I get that we're a Christian nation.  But that darn "equal rights" thingy...always can bite you back.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Yeah....seems a few of my recent posts have puzzled a few here.   

I "got" it.  And I thought it was great.   :beer:

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I "got" it.  And I thought it was great.   :beer:

Oh....I knew full well that you understood, R_i_V.   

It was for some of the Trump antagonists here that like being obtuse in their back-and-forth with me.  Happened three times over the past 48 hours.

Guess they have a blind spot in the mirror.   :shrug:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Oh....I knew full well that you understood, R_i_V.   

It was for some of the Trump antagonists here that like being obtuse in their back-and-forth with me.  Happened three times over the past 48 hours.

I saw that you were trying to break through to logic and reason on some threads.  You may not have reached your target audience, but don't give up, your points were made...and made well.   ^-^

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I saw that you were trying to break through to logic and reason on some threads.  You may not have reached your target audience, but don't give up, your points were made...and made well.   ^-^

Thanks, R_i-V.   :beer:

This topic is a tough one because there are examples of special treatment.   Like this one....

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Online Bigun

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Under that concept of "federalism" we could still have slavery, segregation, discrimination, forbid mixed marriages, etc.

It is real simple. The USSC is the highest court in the nation. They ruled that same-sex marriage is legal, regardless of what some churches might think.

Several churches supported slavery, too. But in the end they did not prevail.

Instead of considering the same-sex issue an attack on Christianity, those denominations might consider if it is truly "Christian" to wind up on the exclusive side of issue, after issue; e.g. slavery, segregation, mixed marriage, and now same-sex unions.

The irony to me is that these people and their institutions would be attracted to the Republican party, and to conservatism, since the GOP started out in opposition to the very attitudes and practices like these.

My mother's ancestors were among the earliest Abolitionists in the country, including Pastor Elijah Parish Lovejoy, killed in 1837 at Alton, Illinois for his anti-slavery writings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah_Parish_Lovejoy

On May 18, 1970, Jack Baker and Michael McConnell walked into a
courthouse in Minneapolis, paid $10, and applied for a marriage
license. The county clerk, Gerald Nelson, refused to give it to them.
Obviously, he told them, marriage was for people of the opposite sex; it wast was silly to think otherwise.

Baker, a law student, didn’t agree. He and McConnell, a librarian, had met at a Halloween party in Oklahoma in 1966, shortly after Baker was pushed out of the Air Force for his sexuality. From the beginning, the men were committed to one another. In 1967, Baker proposed that they move in together. McConnell replied that he wanted to get married—really, legally married. The idea struck even Baker as odd at first, but he promised to find a way and decided to go to law school to figure it out.

When the clerk rejected Baker and McConnell’s application, they sued in state court. Nothing in the Minnesota marriage statute, Baker noted, mentioned gender. And even if it did, he argued, limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples would constitute unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of sex, violating both the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. He likened the situation to that of interracial marriage, which the Supreme Court had found unconstitutional in 1967, in Loving v. Virginia.

The trial court dismissed Baker’s claim. The Minnesota Supreme Court upheld that dismissal, in an opinion that cited the dictionary definition of marriage and contended, “The institution of marriage as a union of man and woman...is as old as the book of Genesis.” Finally, in 1972, Baker appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. It refused to hear the case, rejecting it with a single sentence: “The appeal is dismissed for want of a substantial federal question.” The idea that people of the same sex might have a constitutional right to get married, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd even to consider.

Last week, the high court reversed itself and declared that gays could marry nationwide. “Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization’s oldest institutions,” Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his sweeping decision in Obergefell v. Hodges. “They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right.”

The plaintiffs’ arguments in Obergefell were strikingly similar to those Baker made back in the 1970s. And the Constitution has not changed since Baker made his challenge (save for the ratification of the Twenty-Seventh Amendment, on congressional salaries). But the high court’s view of the legitimacy and constitutionality of same-sex marriage changed radically: In the span of 43 years, the notion had gone from ridiculous to constitutionally mandated. How did that happen?


I put the question to Mary Bonauto, who argued Obergefell before the Supreme Court in April. A Boston-based staff lawyer for Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders, Bonauto won the Massachusetts case that made the state the first to allow gay couples to wed in 2004. In 1971, she noted, sodomy was a crime in nearly every state, gays were routinely persecuted and barred from public and private employment, and homosexuality was classified as a mental illness. “We were just as right then as we are now,” she said. “But there was a complete lack of understanding of the existence and common humanity of gay people.”

What changed, in other words, wasn’t the Constitution—it was the country. And what changed the country was a movement.

Friday’s decision wasn’t solely or even primarily the work of the lawyers and plaintiffs who brought the case. It was the product of the decades of activism that made the idea of gay marriage seem plausible, desirable, and right. By now, it has become a political cliché to wonder at how quickly public opinion has changed on gay marriage in recent years—support for “marriages between homosexuals,” measured at 60 percent this year, was just 27 percent when Gallup first asked the question in 1996. But that didn’t happen organically.

Much more at link!

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/

Quote
When the clerk rejected Baker and McConnell’s application, they sued in state court. Nothing in the Minnesota marriage statute, Baker noted, mentioned gender. And even if it did, he argued, limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples would constitute unconstitutional discrimination on the basis of sex, violating both the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. He likened the situation to that of interracial marriage, which the Supreme Court had found unconstitutional in 1967, in Loving v. Virginia.

The trial court dismissed Baker’s claim. The Minnesota Supreme Court upheld that dismissal, in an opinion that cited the dictionary definition of marriage and contended, “The institution of marriage as a union of man and woman...is as old as the book of Genesis.” Finally, in 1972, Baker appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. It refused to hear the case, rejecting it with a single sentence: “The appeal is dismissed for want of a substantial federal question.”

The idea that people of the same sex might have a constitutional right to get married, the dismissal suggested, was too absurd even to consider.The plaintiffs’ arguments in Obergefell were strikingly similar to those Baker made back in the 1970s. And the Constitution has not changed since Baker made his challenge (save for the ratification of the Twenty-Seventh Amendment, on congressional salaries).


So how did we get from "no substantial federal question" to law of the land by judicial fiat? That's what I want to know!



« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:45:10 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Offline Charlespg

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Rowan County is home to 30 churches.  25 of which are Evangelical.  It is also in the middle of nowhere.  What were these two men seeking to get married in this area at this time with cameras?
Because these two trouble making fairies and the enablers of the lavender mafia
want Christians to crawl 

you must accept the gay life style and the progressive agenda or else

I will  NOT accept and I will NOT submit
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:29:55 pm by Charlespg »
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Offline olde north church

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Because these two trouble making fairies and the enablers of the lavender mafia
want Christians to crawl 

you must accept the gay life style and the progressive agenda or else

I will  NOT accept and I will NOT submit

And that would be correct.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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So how did we get from "no substantial federal question" to law of the land by judicial fiat? That's what I want to know!

Stripping out the obvious stupidities, because the Supreme Court was persuaded that the better arguments favored finding protected status.  Just the same as the Supreme Court decided in Brown v. Board of Education that the better arguments favored finding separate but equal to be unconstitutional, notwithstanding Dredd Scott and its progeny.

This is the very core of the common law, and it is how the law develops.  But for this development we would still be back in the dark ages where every crime was a felony punishable by death, and slavery legal.

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Stripping out the obvious stupidities, because the Supreme Court was persuaded that the better arguments favored finding protected status.  Just the same as the Supreme Court decided in Brown v. Board of Education that the better arguments favored finding separate but equal to be unconstitutional, notwithstanding Dredd Scott and its progeny.

This is the very core of the common law, and it is how the law develops.  But for this development we would still be back in the dark ages where every crime was a felony punishable by death, and slavery legal.

You can defend this crap all you want but you will NEVER convince me that this is anything but judicial activism in it's purest form!

A few years ago there was "no substantial federal question",  nothing changed but the lawyers involved including the ones in black robes, and thousands of years of cultural history have been erased by judicial fiat!
 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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You can defend this crap all you want but you will NEVER convince me that this is anything but judicial activism in it's purest form!

A few years ago there was "no substantial federal question",  nothing changed but the lawyers involved including the ones in black robes, and thousands of years of cultural history have been erased by judicial fiat!
 


I'll never convince you of anything you're already decided you're emotionally invested in not believing.  Before I became wiser I used to debate tax protesters who believed that the income tax was voluntary and only applied to government employees and residents of federal territories; no matter how glaringly obvious the evidence and the law against their beliefs were, it was impossible to shake them even an iota.  They were too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be able to admit that reality contradicted them.  You're no different, except for the fact that I haven't yet written you off as impossibly incorrigible yet.

Online Bigun

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I'll never convince you of anything you're already decided you're emotionally invested in not believing.  Before I became wiser I used to debate tax protesters who believed that the income tax was voluntary and only applied to government employees and residents of federal territories; no matter how glaringly obvious the evidence and the law against their beliefs were, it was impossible to shake them even an iota.  They were too emotionally invested in their beliefs to be able to admit that reality contradicted them.  You're no different, except for the fact that I haven't yet written you off as impossibly incorrigible yet.

I am , in fact, quite different from those people but rave on as you please counselor!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Godzilla

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You can defend this crap all you want but you will NEVER convince me that this is anything but judicial activism in it's purest form!

A few years ago there was "no substantial federal question",  nothing changed but the lawyers involved including the ones in black robes, and thousands of years of cultural history have been erased by judicial fiat!

What changed is that someone, many someones in fact, brought up the issue through the courts.

The judiciary is a reactive force, in that nothing happens unless a court case is filed by someone.

Oceander

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I am , in fact, quite different from those people but rave on as you please counselor!


You wouldn't think yourself otherwise; if you did, you wouldn't be making the same mistakes.