Author Topic: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy  (Read 14376 times)

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Offline Scottftlc

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #150 on: August 15, 2015, 05:14:35 pm »
The Nolan Chart is a great representation.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #151 on: August 15, 2015, 05:18:13 pm »
Let me just say that this is a fascinating discussion....   :beer:
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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #152 on: August 15, 2015, 05:31:17 pm »
I'd have to say that your basic definition of the political spectrum is flawed.  Politics is not a one-dimensional line with a "right" and "left", but more like a square - with four corners.

The corners correspond to personal AND economic liberties.

See below:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Nolan-chart.svg/2000px-Nolan-chart.svg.png

Now you've done it.  He'll say you're a Democrat.

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #153 on: August 15, 2015, 05:32:11 pm »
Let me just say that this is a fascinating discussion....   :beer:

Kinda got a little off topic though. :)

Offline EdinVA

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #154 on: August 15, 2015, 05:39:48 pm »
Let me just say that this is a fascinating discussion....   :beer:

Luis started it... it's his fault.. :)

Offline EC

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #155 on: August 15, 2015, 06:05:34 pm »
Welcome in Godzilla!

Shouldn't the chart have a third dimension also? I am trying to remember the third major couple on the politic spectrum and failing miserably.
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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #156 on: August 15, 2015, 06:38:08 pm »
Welcome in Godzilla!

Shouldn't the chart have a third dimension also? I am trying to remember the third major couple on the politic spectrum and failing miserably.

Well, one dimensional is just a line with a left and right.

The second dimension gives the cardinal directions.

The third adds up and down.  I don't personally know of any political variables that would correspond to the up and down axis.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #157 on: August 15, 2015, 08:32:09 pm »
Well, one dimensional is just a line with a left and right.

The second dimension gives the cardinal directions.

The third adds up and down.  I don't personally know of any political variables that would correspond to the up and down axis.

That's what got my gander up previously.

Hated to think that my chosen ideology could ever evolve to anarchy and mayhem, just because I want to see limits placed on governmental power over the individual.

It can't be just east and west.   The 4 corners looks more realistic to me.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #158 on: August 15, 2015, 10:52:12 pm »
I'd have to say that your basic definition of the political spectrum is flawed.  Politics is not a one-dimensional line with a "right" and "left", but more like a square - with four corners.

The corners correspond to personal AND economic liberties.

See below:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Nolan-chart.svg/2000px-Nolan-chart.svg.png

Every ideology in that diagram has agreed to live under one manner of government or another. Anarchists are excluded from that diagram since anarchists do not believe in any form of government.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #159 on: August 15, 2015, 10:54:28 pm »
That's what got my gander up previously.

Hated to think that my chosen ideology could ever evolve to anarchy and mayhem, just because I want to see limits placed on governmental power over the individual.

It can't be just east and west.   The 4 corners looks more realistic to me.

Our chosen ideology, in fact all ideologies BEGIN with anarchy and develop into organized government. The more government, the more we move away from anarchy and toward Communism.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 10:57:50 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #160 on: August 16, 2015, 03:19:55 am »
Let me just say that this is a fascinating discussion....   :beer:

Hear, Hear!

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #161 on: August 16, 2015, 03:40:55 am »
Every ideology in that diagram has agreed to live under one manner of government or another. Anarchists are excluded from that diagram since anarchists do not believe in any form of government.

Well maybe that is because the chart reflects the real world and not your feverish imagination.

Offline Paladin

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #162 on: August 16, 2015, 03:57:25 am »
Quote
Well maybe that is because the chart reflects the real world and not your feverish imagination.

I just wonder why it is you feel the need to go for the personal so often in your comments. Do you have any idea how annoying that is or how dismissive a poster you make of yourself? Any idea at all?
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #163 on: August 16, 2015, 04:02:21 am »
I just wonder why it is you feel the need to go for the personal so often in your comments. Do you have any idea how annoying that is or how dismissive a poster you make of yourself? Any idea at all?

Evidently, not.   
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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2015, 04:58:04 am »
I just wonder why it is you feel the need to go for the personal so often in your comments. Do you have any idea how annoying that is or how dismissive a poster you make of yourself? Any idea at all?
Isn't it amazing how a person can be so oblivious to how raging self absorbed and arrogant insults are perceived by others...even if what is being said could be arguably true?

Some times a message can be killed by how it is presented.  When insults are directed at people who we like, respect, or admire, human nature desires and compels that we respond in their defense...and the message never makes it to our ears.

In fact, that kind of approach might even bring a group of people...like the people of this forum...with a plethora of positions...together in condemnation of the "insult generator."

But enough about Trump.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 05:55:19 am by Once-Ler »

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #165 on: August 16, 2015, 05:20:07 am »
Isn't it amazing how a person can be so oblivious to how raging self absorbed and arrogant insults are perceived by others...even if what is being said could be arguably true?

Some times a message can be killed by how it is presented.  When insults are directed at people who we like, respect, or admire, human nature desires and compels that we respond in their defense...and the message never makes it to our ears.

In fact, that kind of approach might even bring a group of people...like the people of this forum...with a plethora of positions...come together in condemnation of the "insult generator."

But enough about Trump.

 :laugh:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #166 on: August 16, 2015, 01:15:05 pm »
 :beer:
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

bkepley

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #167 on: August 16, 2015, 01:25:39 pm »
I just wonder why it is you feel the need to go for the personal so often in your comments. Do you have any idea how annoying that is or how dismissive a poster you make of yourself? Any idea at all?

Well first he insinuated I was a collectivist then a Democrat and finally that my argument was "word salad" (whatever that means)  and that was the final straw but for other reasons you yourself ignored the facg that he was being insulting to me.  Why do I suspect you are a Trump supporter/defender BTW?  Seems some are not only allowed their insults but are encouraged in them.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #168 on: August 16, 2015, 01:37:33 pm »
Well first he insinuated I was a collectivist then a Democrat and finally that my argument was "word salad" (whatever that means)  and that was the final straw but for other reasons you yourself ignored the facg that he was being insulting to me.  Why do I suspect you are a Trump supporter/defender BTW?  Seems some are not only allowed their insults but are encouraged in them.

Buddy....you started all this the other day by calling posters who were accepting of Donald Trump..."morons and idiots".

Don't try to justify your personal attacks.  Just apologize.  And, make it believable.

You can be disagreeable and still be civil here.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #169 on: August 16, 2015, 09:34:22 pm »
Luis started it... it's his fault.. :)

 :beer:
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #170 on: August 16, 2015, 10:27:14 pm »
That's what got my gander up previously.

Hated to think that my chosen ideology could ever evolve to anarchy and mayhem, just because I want to see limits placed on governmental power over the individual.

It can't be just east and west.   The 4 corners looks more realistic to me.

I was really busy last night and this morning, but your post kept running around in my head.

Basically, it reminded me of how a nice, hard-working, upstanding family would be horrified at the idea that one of their own would be a terrorist, a child molester, or a liberal, thinking that this individual's membership in the gene pool would forever taint the family's reputation.

That of course would be untrue. Just as untrue as thinking that the fact that anarchy exists at "our" end of the political governance spectrum in any way defines us.

What it does illustrate very clearly, is the dangers of extremism of any form.

It also exposes the paradox of conservatism. We all instinctively and intellectually understand that the greatest enemy of freedom is government, with the possible exception of the lack of it.

We are today trained to read the word "anarchy" to mean mayhem and violence. Yet, even as we watch governments perpetrate mayhem and violence on people, we don't call that anarchy.

Why is that the case?

Why is it easy to assign scary unknown bad things to something that we don't know, but sort of ignoring the scary bad things hat which we know does pretty consistently?

It's difficult to discuss anarchy because of today's understanding of the theory. As difficult as it was to discuss atheism in the Middle Ages. Then people never wondered whether or not God existed, or at least not out loud out of fear of prosecution for heresy. They just assumed that the existence of God was self-evident. Many people still do. Today, the vast majority of people never ask themselves if government is necessary, they just assume that the necessity is self-evident. They're wrong, but only because mankind has not evolved to a point where we don't require governments to protect us from other members of our species. 

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and He populated it with birds and fish and all manners of beasts, and Eden was an anarchist's Paradise. Them He created Man, and with His creation came the very first, and very limited, form of government.

A government with but one rule.

"Don't eat that." 

Government (like religion) has grown quite a bit since then.

If you can imagine a world with no rules and where there is no government and that moment when people decided to band together to enact laws and collectively exercise their natural rights to defend their person, their liberty and their property, you have just envisioned the first move to the left of theoretical "Eden" anarchism:

Some government <------ no government.

As we continue to move away from anarchy and toward a safer and better organized society, government grows exponentially, and we move further to the left.

At one point in time however, this government that was created began to use the law to destroy the law's own purpose, and the collective force created for the purpose of safeguarding our natural rights began to be used in direct opposition to its purposes> Laws and the collective force are used to exploit the person, property and liberty of the very people they're supposed to protect. Lawful defense  has been made illegal in order to punish lawful defense, and plunder has been converted into a right, in order to protect plunder.

So now, conservatives and libertarians try pushing government back to the right, and those to the left of that middle line, evoke the boogeyman of anarchy's chaos and tumult to drill into us that without government, the things that government do to us now, will be done by others, in much larger scale.

Hard to imagine that.

Anarchism, like Communism, is a concept that exist in a theoretical world where humans are perfect, By the sane token, anarchists and Communists CAN exist today because the flawed society and governments that we mere humans have managed to duct tape together, protect them from the flaws of their inoperable governing concepts.

And here we are, trying to just find the perfect spot on that little line. A perfect spot nestled somewhere between losing all freedom and losing all freedom.

H/T Bastiat
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 10:31:01 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline olde north church

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #171 on: August 16, 2015, 10:35:18 pm »
I was really busy last night and this morning, but your post kept running around in my head.

Basically, it reminded me of how a nice, hard-working, upstanding family would be horrified at the idea that one of their own would be a terrorist, a child molester, or a liberal, thinking that this individual's membership in the gene pool would forever taint the family's reputation.

That of course would be untrue. Just as untrue as thinking that the fact that anarchy exists at "our" end of the political governance spectrum in any way defines us.

What it does illustrate very clearly, is the dangers of extremism of any form.

It also exposes the paradox of conservatism. We all instinctively and intellectually understand that the greatest enemy of freedom is government, with the possible exception of the lack of it.

We are today trained to read the word "anarchy" to mean mayhem and violence. Yet, even as we watch governments perpetrate mayhem and violence on people, we don't call that anarchy.

Why is that the case?

Why is it easy to assign scary unknown bad things to something that we don't know, but sort of ignoring the scary bad things hat which we know does pretty consistently?

It's difficult to discuss anarchy because of today's understanding of the theory. As difficult as it was to discuss atheism in the Middle Ages. Then people never wondered whether or not God existed, or at least not out loud out of fear of prosecution for heresy. They just assumed that the existence of God was self-evident. Many people still do. Today, the vast majority of people never ask themselves if government is necessary, they just assume that the necessity is self-evident. They're wrong, but only because mankind has not evolved to a point where we don't require governments to protect us from other members of our species. 

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and He populated it with birds and fish and all manners of beasts, and Eden was an anarchist's Paradise. Them He created Man, and with His creation came the very first, and very limited, form of government.

A government with but one rule.

"Don't eat that." 

Government (like religion) has grown quite a bit since then.

If you can imagine a world with no rules and where there is no government and that moment when people decided to band together to enact laws and collectively exercise their natural rights to defend their person, their liberty and their property, you have just envisioned the first move to the left of theoretical "Eden" anarchism:

Some government <------ no government.

As we continue to move away from anarchy and toward a safer and better organized society, government grows exponentially, and we move further to the left.

At one point in time however, this government that was created began to use the law to destroy the law's own purpose, and the collective force created for the purpose of safeguarding our natural rights began to be used in direct opposition to its purposes> Laws and the collective force are used to exploit the person, property and liberty of the very people they're supposed to protect. Lawful defense  has been made illegal in order to punish lawful defense, and plunder has been converted into a right, in order to protect plunder.

So now, conservatives and libertarians try pushing government back to the right, and those to the left of that middle line, evoke the boogeyman of anarchy's chaos and tumult to drill into us that without government, the things that government do to us now, will be done by others, in much larger scale.

Hard to imagine that.

Anarchism, like Communism, is a concept that exist in a theoretical world where humans are perfect, By the sane token, anarchists and Communists CAN exist today because the flawed society and governments that we mere humans have managed to duct tape together, protect them from the flaws of their inoperable governing concepts.

And here we are, trying to just find the perfect spot on that little line. A perfect spot nestled somewhere between losing all freedom and losing all freedom.

H/T Bastiat

The Creator was fine with 10 rules, 3 of which pertained to Him personally.  We have a government that has a 100,000 and can't keep ice cream clean.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #172 on: August 16, 2015, 10:40:01 pm »
The Creator was fine with 10 rules, 3 of which pertained to Him personally.  We have a government that has a 100,000 and can't keep ice cream clean.

The Creator set those 10 rules in place many, many years after Eden.

P.S. To wit, even He grew government.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 10:41:43 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

bkepley

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2015, 10:45:07 pm »
The Creator set those 10 rules in place many, many years after Eden.

P.S. To wit, even He grew government.

For His sake...consider what the topic was.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #174 on: August 16, 2015, 10:50:13 pm »
I was really busy last night and this morning, but your post kept running around in my head.

Basically, it reminded me of how a nice, hard-working, upstanding family would be horrified at the idea that one of their own would be a terrorist, a child molester, or a liberal, thinking that this individual's membership in the gene pool would forever taint the family's reputation.

That of course would be untrue. Just as untrue as thinking that the fact that anarchy exists at "our" end of the political governance spectrum in any way defines us.

What it does illustrate very clearly, is the dangers of extremism of any form.

It also exposes the paradox of conservatism. We all instinctively and intellectually understand that the greatest enemy of freedom is government, with the possible exception of the lack of it.

We are today trained to read the word "anarchy" to mean mayhem and violence. Yet, even as we watch governments perpetrate mayhem and violence on people, we don't call that anarchy.

Why is that the case?

Why is it easy to assign scary unknown bad things to something that we don't know, but sort of ignoring the scary bad things hat which we know does pretty consistently?

It's difficult to discuss anarchy because of today's understanding of the theory. As difficult as it was to discuss atheism in the Middle Ages. Then people never wondered whether or not God existed, or at least not out loud out of fear of prosecution for heresy. They just assumed that the existence of God was self-evident. Many people still do. Today, the vast majority of people never ask themselves if government is necessary, they just assume that the necessity is self-evident. They're wrong, but only because mankind has not evolved to a point where we don't require governments to protect us from other members of our species. 

In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and He populated it with birds and fish and all manners of beasts, and Eden was an anarchist's Paradise. Them He created Man, and with His creation came the very first, and very limited, form of government.

A government with but one rule.

"Don't eat that." 

Government (like religion) has grown quite a bit since then.

If you can imagine a world with no rules and where there is no government and that moment when people decided to band together to enact laws and collectively exercise their natural rights to defend their person, their liberty and their property, you have just envisioned the first move to the left of theoretical "Eden" anarchism:

Some government <------ no government.

As we continue to move away from anarchy and toward a safer and better organized society, government grows exponentially, and we move further to the left.

At one point in time however, this government that was created began to use the law to destroy the law's own purpose, and the collective force created for the purpose of safeguarding our natural rights began to be used in direct opposition to its purposes> Laws and the collective force are used to exploit the person, property and liberty of the very people they're supposed to protect. Lawful defense  has been made illegal in order to punish lawful defense, and plunder has been converted into a right, in order to protect plunder.

So now, conservatives and libertarians try pushing government back to the right, and those to the left of that middle line, evoke the boogeyman of anarchy's chaos and tumult to drill into us that without government, the things that government do to us now, will be done by others, in much larger scale.

Hard to imagine that.

Anarchism, like Communism, is a concept that exist in a theoretical world where humans are perfect, By the sane token, anarchists and Communists CAN exist today because the flawed society and governments that we mere humans have managed to duct tape together, protect them from the flaws of their inoperable governing concepts.

And here we are, trying to just find the perfect spot on that little line. A perfect spot nestled somewhere between losing all freedom and losing all freedom.

H/T Bastiat

Luis!  I, too, have been thinking about my post most of last evening.  And, into today.

Thank you so much for you expounding on it.  You have a gift, my friend.   :beer:

It just doesn't sit well with me when some Marxist Socialist Communist from the other side of the spectrum can get away with something like,

"Yeah??  Well, anarchy and mayhem isn't found on MY SIDE of the political spectrum buddy!  At least on our side, if some are going to have to starve, then we're all going to have to know what starving really is".   

And so on..... 
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald