Author Topic: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy  (Read 14447 times)

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Online DCPatriot

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2015, 02:27:12 pm »

If conservatism is defined by individualism and less government interference with an individual, what is the extreme manifestation of that if not anarchy?


No, it's called, 'We're living out here in the countryside. Leave us the $#&K alone!'      :laugh:



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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2015, 02:30:18 pm »
Why, historically, have the anarchists been on the extreme left if it is an extreme right position?

Because they are mislabeled.

How can anarchists and communists have any level of common ground?

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2015, 02:30:54 pm »
No, it's called, 'We're living out here in the countryside. Leave us the $#&K alone!'      :laugh:

A.K.A. Anarchy.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Bigun

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2015, 02:32:36 pm »
I refuse to accept that description.

Continuing down the path from limited government doesn't lead to no government.

It serves notice for all who are interested, that peace and prosperity and individual liberty can only be found on our side.

No but it sue as heck leads to LESS government IMHO!  Which is a very GOOD thing!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2015, 02:32:39 pm »
My opinions are my own but I am not alone in them.

Being wrong together doesn't make one right.

It just makes one a Democrat.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

bkepley

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2015, 02:33:38 pm »
Because they are mislabeled.

How can anarchists and communists have any level of common ground?

I don't  think they are mislabeled.  I'm pretty sure you know where the terms "right" and "left" come from.  They are certainly on the left.

Offline Bigun

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2015, 02:35:11 pm »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

bkepley

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2015, 02:35:50 pm »
Being wrong together doesn't make one right.

It just makes one a Democrat.

Now there's an out of bounds insult.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2015, 02:39:55 pm »
I don't  think they are mislabeled.  I'm pretty sure you know where the terms "right" and "left" come from.  They are certainly on the left.

How can an ideology like communism, which is the extreme manifestation of left-wing ideology and strives to exert complete control of every aspect of society and an individual's life, be part of the same side of the political spectrum as anarchy, which is the idea that no government should exist, ergo there should be no control of any aspect of society or the lives of individuals by anything?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

bkepley

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #134 on: August 15, 2015, 02:42:42 pm »
How can an ideology like communism, which is the extreme manifestation of left-wing ideology and strives to exert complete control of every aspect of society and an individual's life, be part of the same side of the political spectrum as anarchy, which is the idea that no government should exist, ergo there should be no control of any aspect of society or the lives of individuals by anything?

The terms represent those most opposed to the current form of government versus those most in favor and it is applied to any government for historical reasons.

Offline EdinVA

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #135 on: August 15, 2015, 02:51:50 pm »
How can an ideology like communism, which is the extreme manifestation of left-wing ideology and strives to exert complete control of every aspect of society and an individual's life, be part of the same side of the political spectrum as anarchy, which is the idea that no government should exist, ergo there should be no control of any aspect of society or the lives of individuals by anything?

Because the root of both is an unwillingness to accept responsibility.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #136 on: August 15, 2015, 02:52:25 pm »
No but it sue as heck leads to LESS government IMHO!  Which is a very GOOD thing!

Reading Luis' cogent reply, I can take solace in knowing that the ideal 'center' is on our side of middle.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Bigun

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #137 on: August 15, 2015, 02:57:00 pm »
Reading Luis' cogent reply, I can take solace in knowing that the ideal 'center' is on our side of middle.

 :amen:  :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #138 on: August 15, 2015, 02:59:50 pm »
Because the root of both is an unwillingness to accept responsibility.

Wrong.

Anarchy is the willingness to accept absolute responsibility for our own existence.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #139 on: August 15, 2015, 03:00:19 pm »
Reading Luis' cogent reply, I can take solace in knowing that the ideal 'center' is on our side of middle.

Exactly.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #140 on: August 15, 2015, 03:01:30 pm »
The terms represent those most opposed to the current form of government versus those most in favor and it is applied to any government for historical reasons.

Word salad.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline EdinVA

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #141 on: August 15, 2015, 03:05:09 pm »
Wrong.

Anarchy is the willingness to accept absolute responsibility for our own existence.

Wrong.
It is the unwillingness to accept responsibility in society and the necessary rules for order.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #142 on: August 15, 2015, 03:09:18 pm »
Wrong.
It is the unwillingness to accept responsibility in society and the necessary rules for order.

Society is a collectivist construct.

Communism strives to create complete order by eliminating freedom via extreme rules (laws).

Anarchy strives to deconstruct order by creating extreme freedom via the absolute absence of rules (laws).

Completely opposite concepts that have absolutely nothing in common.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline famousdayandyear

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #143 on: August 15, 2015, 03:27:28 pm »
No, it's called, 'We're living out here in the countryside. Leave us the $#&K alone!'      :laugh:

 :howlin: Yay doggies

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #144 on: August 15, 2015, 03:33:00 pm »
The way I have always viewed the political spectrum, from grad school days, is with the free republican form of government in the middle of the spectrum - the "ideal balance" if you will of personal freedom, social and personal responsibility, with a representative form of governance balanced by diffusion and absolute checks on power. This middle is what was envisioned by the American Founders (but never perfectly realized of course, like all ideals).  I always saw this as the middle.  Not very different than what Luis (and others here) said in a different way.

As you moved leftward, you arrived at the welfare state (soft socialism) and then to true socialism...pressing eventually to the extreme of totalitarian communism.  As you moved rightward you would come to crony capitalism, old style Monarchy in its various forms (all the way to its harshest form as seen in the Empire of Japan that mixed Monarchy with fascism) including feudalism, to ecumenical or religious-based governing structures and finally to the harshest mixture of these totalitarian forms: fascism.  The irony of the spectrum of course is that it seemed to bend into a circle, as hard communism and fascism are nearly indistinguishable to the common man.  This worked and was rather elegant - and explained the 20th century beautifully. 

However, I never viewed the spectrum as absolute, encompassing all possible forms of human civilization...in one sense libertarianism is a mixture of left and right that arrives oddly enough not at the middle seemingly any time...and the modern Greens seem to arrive at both extreme fascism and/or communism on business regulation while keeping touch with soft socialism on other social issues. And then there are the Anarchists - who are just into destruction ala Clockwork Orange - they revel in the law of the jungle.  They are the devil's antithesis to the idea of structure and are always outside any spectrum of governance.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 03:35:46 pm by Scottftlc »
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Offline Bigun

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #145 on: August 15, 2015, 03:37:53 pm »
The way I have always viewed the political spectrum, from grad school days, is with the free republican form of government in the middle of the spectrum - the "ideal balance" if you will of personal freedom, social and personal responsibility, with a representative form of governance balanced by diffusion and absolute checks on power. This middle is what was envisioned by the American Founders (but never perfectly realized of course, like all ideals).  I always saw this as the middle.  Not very different than what Luis (and others here) said in a different way.

As you moved leftward, you arrived at the welfare state (soft socialism) and then to true socialism...pressing eventually to the extreme of totalitarian communism.  As you moved rightward you would come to crony capitalism, old style Monarchy in its various forms (all the way to its harshest form as seen in the Empire of Japan that mixed Monarchy with fascism) including feudalism, to ecumenical or religious-based governing structures and finally to the harshest mixture of these totalitarian forms: fascism.  The irony of the spectrum of course is that it seemed to bend into a circle, as hard communism and fascism are nearly indistinguishable to the common man.  This worked and was rather elegant - and explained the 20th century beautifully. 

However, I never viewed the spectrum as absolute, encompassing all possible forms of human civilization...in one sense libertarianism is a mixture of left and right that arrives oddly enough not at the middle seemingly any time...and the modern Greens seem to arrive at both extreme fascism and/or communism on business regulation while keeping touch with soft socialism on other social issues. And then there are the Anarchists - who are just into destruction ala Clockwork Orange - they revel in the law of the jungle.  They are the devil's antithesis to the idea of structure and are always outside any spectrum of governance.

Which is exactly why we should always stick to the Constitution as our guide.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 03:43:31 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #146 on: August 15, 2015, 03:54:03 pm »

As you moved leftward, you arrived at the welfare state (soft socialism) and then to true socialism...pressing eventually to the extreme of totalitarian communism.  As you moved rightward you would come to crony capitalism, old style Monarchy in its various forms (all the way to its harshest form as seen in the Empire of Japan that mixed Monarchy with fascism) including feudalism, to ecumenical or religious-based governing structures and finally to the harshest mixture of these totalitarian forms: fascism.  The irony of the spectrum of course is that it seemed to bend into a circle, as hard communism and fascism are nearly indistinguishable to the common man.  This worked and was rather elegant - and explained the 20th century beautifully. 

That is how I learned it. Since the 60s and 70s others have put forth variations. Here is a quick one most of us have seen.

http://theadvocates.org/quiz/quiz.php#

There are five regions on two axes; Left (liberal), Centrist, Right (conservative), Libertarian, Statist (Big Government). Numeric values are used for Personal and Economic issues
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Bigun

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #147 on: August 15, 2015, 04:04:48 pm »
That is how I learned it. Since the 60s and 70s others have put forth variations. Here is a quick one most of us have seen.

http://theadvocates.org/quiz/quiz.php#

There are five regions on two axes; Left (liberal), Centrist, Right (conservative), Libertarian, Statist (Big Government). Numeric values are used for Personal and Economic issues

I have taken any number of these quizzes and consistently  fall somewhere around the line between Right conservative and Libertarian.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

bkepley

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #148 on: August 15, 2015, 04:05:14 pm »
Word salad.

BS.  Left wing and right wing originated from those who sat on the left wing who opposed the Royals versus those who sat on the right who supported them.  They wouldn't have a clue about all the "word salad" you are spewing.  Left and right are commonly used exactly in the way I described it.  If you like yours better then fine but don't expect the rest of the world to fall in line.

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Re: A top US general picked apart Donald Trump's ISIS policy
« Reply #149 on: August 15, 2015, 05:07:35 pm »
Because they are mislabeled.

How can anarchists and communists have any level of common ground?
I'd have to say that your basic definition of the political spectrum is flawed.  Politics is not a one-dimensional line with a "right" and "left", but more like a square - with four corners.

The corners correspond to personal AND economic liberties.

See below:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Nolan-chart.svg/2000px-Nolan-chart.svg.png

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