The terrible, horrible, no good start for the Republicans

[Longiron]

We see things much the same. The Republicans were given the House and the Senate because the people wanted to put a check on Obama's executive orders, amnesty in particular. Now that the Republicans have shown their hand, and it's clear they will capitulate to Obama, the people will respond appropriately.

There is little chance the Republicans will win the presidency, or hold the Senate in 2016.

You are very correct. Their is only one choice and that is competition in the RINOGOP. Conservatives need to get out of the Primary Process where it is fixed against them. In 2016 the big money donors and Wall Street can live very well with Jeb or Hillary. Does not matter. Someone on here posted about that a few days ago and they are 100% right. The answer is obvious it just needs a leader to implement it ???

[Luis Gonzalez]

Hey, if everyone does as I will do, then you'll get your open borders.

You're a staunch conservative, until your not. Just like your rulers in the GOPe.

I don't want open borders, you're just a liar.

You were a liar under your previous handle, and you haven't changed one bit.

[DCPatriot]

I don't want open borders, you're just a liar.

You were a liar under your previous handle, and you haven't changed one bit.

Wish these types of arguments could be taken to PM.

But, I understand.   You beat me to it Luis.

How can any established member here in a Republican forum EVER vote Democrat.

Personally, I'd prefer you stayed home and not vote at all.

[Relic]

I don't want open borders, you're just a liar.

You were a liar under your previous handle, and you haven't changed one bit.

Really? Guess what genius, I've never had another handle here.

You're obviously quick with personal attacks, but a poor, slow thinker.

Answer me this. What would be happening that's any different if the Dems were in control of Congress? Aside from this speech that no one besides political wonks and junkies will know about. LIVs won't pay attention until the country is burning to the ground. 

[mystery-ak]

 

Luis....please rephrase your post......please!

[Relic]

Wish these types of arguments could be taken to PM.

But, I understand.   You beat me to it Luis.

How can any established member here in a Republican forum EVER vote Democrat.

Personally, I'd prefer you stayed home and not vote at all.

Well, at least you're civil about it this time.

See my reply to Luis.

It kills me to watch this country die the death of a thousand cuts. Nothing gets better, it's a continual spiral to the bottom. The LIVs are oblivious. The average person doesn't care. Republicans control 2/3s of the government and are still powerless.

To heck with it. Burn it to the ground.

[mystery-ak]

OK. I don't want to get a time-out.

But I will say that the tea partiers continue to advocate that the Congress do the same thing, over and over.

Call that what you will.

Sink I have NEVER suspended or banned anyone for their political views...only their actions on the forum.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Really? Guess what genius, I've never had another handle here.

You're obviously quick with personal attacks, but a poor, slow thinker.

Answer me this. What would be happening that's any different if the Dems were in control of Congress? Aside from this speech that no one besides political wonks and junkies will know about. LIVs won't pay attention until the country is burning to the ground.

I'm quick with the personal attack?

You're a guy in a GOP website admitting that you would for Democrats while calling others RINOs.

That tells me a lot about you, but only because you told me.

The personal attack came when you lied about my wanting open borders.

[Relic]

I'm quick with the personal attack?

You're a guy in a GOP website admitting that you would for Democrats while calling others RINOs.

That tells me a lot about you, but only because you told me.

The personal attack came when you lied about my wanting open borders.

Right, you simply want amnesty. A difference without a distinction. Amnesty draws more illegals in search of more amnesty. A de facto open borders policy.

Rather than seek clarification, you went right to the personal attack. It's ok, I take no offense when my attacker is an impotent individual such as yourself.

[truth_seeker]

I will.

I could not say such a thing. Virtually every Republican is to the right of every democrat.

I'll give you the benefit of doubt, assuming the situation makes you so angry, you can't think straight.

[Relic]

I could not say such a thing. Virtually every Republican is to the right of every democrat.

I'll give you the benefit of doubt, assuming the situation makes you so angry, you can't think straight.

I see it clearly. Perhaps a bit more clearly than you do?
The R's took both chambers of Congress. What has changed?

Yes, they all find a way to vote conservative at some point when it doesn't matter. I am aware of the practice of allowing votes to stray from the fold if the member needs to prove his or her credentials. And yes, there are some R's that disagree with the current direction. But, again, what has changed? They will implement the D agenda, or ignore Obama's actions and plead that they are powerless. It's really just a spin on the liberal practice of claiming socialism really works, they just haven't done enough of it yet. The R's will react to the will of the people, they just aren't in control enough yet.

To hell with them.

[Lando Lincoln]

It kills me to watch this country die the death of a thousand cuts. Nothing gets better, it's a continual spiral to the bottom. The LIVs are oblivious. The average person doesn't care. Republicans control 2/3s of the government and are still powerless.

We share that horrific dismay.  I am sure you and I want the same change in direction, to halt that seemingly inexorable spiral.  I suspect we all do.  As such, we all have a desperation or an urgency which heightens reaction to things.  We bicker over tactics, over the "who", and over the what - while wanting (close to) similar outcomes.  I have fine young sons who are men now; they share my values and attitudes.  I will never cede ground to the Democrats by voting for one.  The Republicans can nominate a yellow dog and I will vote for the dog over the Democrat.

I am mindful that the Republican bench continues to strengthen on the State and local levels with what seems to be a good overall bunch.  I know my sons are conservative in their attitudes as are most of their friends.  That gives me something to hope for, to inspire myself.  I will never "let it burn down" without doing the most I can.

Sometimes I think we almost need a catastrophic attack to finally galvanize us and wake up the LIV's.  The question will be whether or not we can survive it and I sincerely pray it does not happen.  Instead, I hope leadership can somehow emerge, through Divine intervention or happenstance - it doesn't matter -  who will lift us from this mire.  If I need the yellow dog to do it, so be it.  It sure as hell won't be blue.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Right, you simply want amnesty. A difference without a distinction. Amnesty draws more illegals in search of more amnesty. A de facto open borders policy.

Rather than seek clarification, you went right to the personal attack. It's ok, I take no offense when my attacker is an impotent individual such as yourself.

The greatest conservative mind of our generation, and of many generations, examined this exact same problem, albeit in a much smaller scale, and came to the conclusion that amnesty was the only solution, because there was no way to round up and deport millions of people.

Reagan's failure was not making damned sure that securing the border happened before amnesty happened.

Today, there is no plan to deport millions more than the numbers Reagan faced. You would prefer they remain illegals (IIRC that's your position) but that's temporary. The current interpretation of the XIV Amendment says that the illegality that you would prefer disappears in one generation, since their  US-born children are US citizens at birth.

If we're not going to throw them out (which we are not), then we need to account for them in one way or another.

Secure/control the borders.

Re-instate the Bracero program.

Begin a legitimization program with those illegal aliens with deep roots in this country and no criminal history.

That's simply a realistic approach, fine tuning what Reagan tried to do, and that's been my position for well over a decade.

[PzLdr]

If the Tea Party idiots continue to muck up the process, THEY will be responsible for whatever happens to the GOP majority. It's the intransigence of the right wing that's causing the problems.

Spare me. We tried it your way twice. Remember 2008 and 2012? How'd that work out for you? Want us to compromise more? Why? Why don't you and all those moderates compromise with us? Better still, elect your GOP Prez and Congress in 2016 without us. you obviously don't need us. You have all those moderates. And remember, the loss is on you, not us.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Spare me. We tried it your way twice. Remember 2008 and 2012? How'd that work out for you? Want us to compromise more? Why? Why don't you and all those moderates compromise with us? Better still, elect your GOP Prez and Congress in 2016 without us. you obviously don't need us. You have all those moderates. And remember, the loss is on you, not us.

Or the TEA Party could try behaving like the majority without actually being the majority and see how far that takes them along the legislative process.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I see it clearly. Perhaps a bit more clearly than you do?
The R's took both chambers of Congress. What has changed?

Yes, they all find a way to vote conservative at some point when it doesn't matter. I am aware of the practice of allowing votes to stray from the fold if the member needs to prove his or her credentials. And yes, there are some R's that disagree with the current direction. But, again, what has changed? They will implement the D agenda, or ignore Obama's actions and plead that they are powerless. It's really just a spin on the liberal practice of claiming socialism really works, they just haven't done enough of it yet. The R's will react to the will of the people, they just aren't in control enough yet.

To hell with them.

You've been condemning this Congress since before they were sworn into office.

[Relic]

The greatest conservative mind of our generation, and of many generations, examined this exact same problem, albeit in a much smaller scale, and came to the conclusion that amnesty was the only solution, because there was no way to round up and deport millions of people.

Reagan's failure was not making damned sure that securing the border happened before amnesty happened.

Today, there is no plan to deport millions more than the numbers Reagan faced. You would prefer they remain illegals (IIRC that's your position) but that's temporary. The current interpretation of the XIV Amendment says that the illegality that you would prefer disappears in one generation, since their  US-born children are US citizens at birth.

If we're not going to throw them out (which we are not), then we need to account for them in one way or another.

Secure/control the borders.

Re-instate the Bracero program.

Begin a legitimization program with those illegal aliens with deep roots in this country and no criminal history.

That's simply a realistic approach, fine tuning what Reagan tried to do, and that's been my position for well over a decade.

Your memory is faulty.
I have no issue with Spanish people. I think that they have been lured here by companies that want to underpay and abuse illegal labor. I am against rounding up and deporting millions of people. It bothers me that Spanish speakers have jumped the line where other nationalities have to wait significant periods and deal with reams of red tape to get into America. But, that's crying over spilt milk.

Close the borders.
Pick an arbitrary number... say, those here longer than 5 years can apply for citizenship immediately. Those here less than 5 years will have to deal with a more lengthy process, (this is to avoid a crush of those coming for instant citizenship).
Revise the laws for hiring illegals to make it very painful for employers who choose to hire illegals.

That all seems reasonable, and would do much to fix the problem.

[Relic]

You've been condemning this Congress since before they were sworn into office.

Once again, your memory is faulty, or you simply enjoy attacking me. Either way, you should check yourself.

I was gleefully surprised that the R's took the Senate. I didn't think it would happen. I said I'd give them time to be seated, and actually do things before I'd begin throwing rocks.

They've done some things, and the rocks are being pitched.

[Lando Lincoln]

The greatest conservative mind of our generation, and of many generations, examined this exact same problem, albeit in a much smaller scale, and came to the conclusion that amnesty was the only solution, because there was no way to round up and deport millions of people.

Reagan's failure was not making damned sure that securing the border happened before amnesty happened.

Today, there is no plan to deport millions more than the numbers Reagan faced. You would prefer they remain illegals (IIRC that's your position) but that's temporary. The current interpretation of the XIV Amendment says that the illegality that you would prefer disappears in one generation, since their  US-born children are US citizens at birth.

If we're not going to throw them out (which we are not), then we need to account for them in one way or another.

Secure/control the borders.

Re-instate the Bracero program.

Begin a legitimization program with those illegal aliens with deep roots in this country and no criminal history.

That's simply a realistic approach, fine tuning what Reagan tried to do, and that's been my position for well over a decade.

Luis, that is an entirely fair opinion, honestly held and expressed, which is shared by many of today's Republicans.  I won't argue for or against it here but I know it differs fundamentally from the Democratic viewpoint of putting all of those people on the seemingly unlimited "dependency reservation" complete with unmonitored voting privileges, welfare perks, etc.  If the last standing Republican has this viewpoint, I will vote for that Republican.  Otherwise, as I see it, hope is gone.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Luis, that is an entirely fair opinion, honestly held and expressed, which is shared by many of today's Republicans.  I won't argue for or against it here but I know it differs fundamentally from the Democratic viewpoint of putting all of those people on the seemingly unlimited "dependency reservation" complete with unmonitored voting privileges, welfare perks, etc.  If the last standing Republican has this viewpoint, I will vote for that Republican.  Otherwise, as I see it, hope is gone.

"In [my] book I talk about the need to enforce the borders. A great country needs to enforce borders for national security purposes, public health purposes, and the rule of law. First and foremost we have to do that. Secondly we need a narrow family petitioning so that it’s the same as every other country, spouses and minor children, not this broad definition of spouse, minor children, adult siblings and adult parents, that crowds out what we need, which are economic driven immigrants. Those who come here to work, to invest in their dreams in this country, to create opportunities for all of us, and that’s what we need to get to.

The plan also includes a path to legal status. I have not seen anybody, and I know there’s disagreement here–some of these people are angry about this, and, look, I kinda feel your pain….The simple fact is we are not going to deport 11 million people, We should give them a path to legal status, where they work. They don’t receive government benefits, where they don’t break the law, where they learn English, and where they make a contribution to our society. That’s what we need to be focused on." - Jeb Bush CPAC 2015

[aligncare]

It kills me to watch this country die the death of a thousand cuts. Nothing gets better, it's a continual spiral to the bottom. The LIVs are oblivious. The average person doesn't care. Republicans control 2/3s of the government and are still powerless.

To heck with it. Burn it to the ground.

I understand your frustration, but I cannot agree with the latter. So many reasons I could never vote democrat.

I work with a doctor from Ukraine, heavy Russian accent. It's a real kick talking to him.

He's very conservative. A fan of Levin, as am I. And he's very concerned about the direction America is headed. He can't understand how we possibly could have voted for Obama twice – a communist – in America!

You get an interesting perspective talking with someone who's lived under communism. He tells me he knows he may speak openly in criticizing Obama here.

But, he also said that in Russia today any criticism of Putin is whispered "in the kitchen or the bathroom." The fear of speaking out is palpable. Even Catholic priests have been recruited by the KGB to inform about things heard in the confessional. Phone lines are tapped. Letters are opened.

I could never vote Democrat. They would head us down that same road.

[libertybele]

Say what you want or even call me unpatriotic or whatever, but I refuse to vote for someone who I do no feel is qualified for the job.  I am tired of voting for the lesser of the two evils.  I will not vote for Christie, Bush, Rubio, and the like.  It is way past time to vote with our conscious and NOT vote strictly because of party.  The conservative party that I voted for long ago seems to no longer exist.  Why is that?  Because too many of the GOPe have this mindset that if they are more moderate they will appeal to more voters.  Sorry, but I am one that doesn't agree.  The reason that the GOPe doesn't attract more voters is because they have lost their conservative way based on the principles upon which this country was founded and have allowed the slow dismantling of our Constitution over time all in the name of political correctness! 

[Relic]

I understand your frustration, but I cannot agree with the latter. So many reasons I could never vote democrat.

I work with a doctor from Ukraine, heavy Russian accent. It's a real kick talking to him.

He's very conservative. A fan of Levin, as am I. And he's very concerned about the direction America is headed. He can't understand how we possibly could have voted for Obama twice – a communist – in America!

You get an interesting perspective talking with someone who's lived under communism. He tells me he knows he may speak openly in criticizing Obama here.

But, he also said that in Russia today any criticism of Putin is whispered "in the kitchen or the bathroom." The fear of speaking out is palpable. Even Catholic priests have been recruited by the KGB to inform about things heard in the confessional. Phone lines are tapped. Letters are opened.

I could never vote Democrat. They would head us down that same road.

My point is, we are headed down that road, it's just a matter of how quickly we arrive at the destination.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Once again, your memory is faulty, or you simply enjoy attacking me. Either way, you should check yourself.

I was gleefully surprised that the R's took the Senate. I didn't think it would happen. I said I'd give them time to be seated, and actually do things before I'd begin throwing rocks.

They've done some things, and the rocks are being pitched.

You - I haven't given up on the newly elected Republican Congress. I said I'd give them 6 months to a year. However, the early returns aren't good. I've already heard Republicans saying they can't do much with both chambers, but give them the presidency and Congress, and then they'll make things happen. Ugh. 12/17/2014

You hadn't given up on a GOP Congress weeks before they'd been sworn in.

[libertybele]

I understand your frustration, but I cannot agree with the latter. So many reasons I could never vote democrat.

I work with a doctor from Ukraine, heavy Russian accent. It's a real kick talking to him.

He's very conservative. A fan of Levin, as am I. And he's very concerned about the direction America is headed. He can't understand how we possibly could have voted for Obama twice – a communist – in America!

You get an interesting perspective talking with someone who's lived under communism. He tells me he knows he may speak openly in criticizing Obama here.

But, he also said that in Russia today any criticism of Putin is whispered "in the kitchen or the bathroom." The fear of speaking out is palpable. Even Catholic priests have been recruited by the KGB to inform about things heard in the confessional. Phone lines are tapped. Letters are opened.

I could never vote Democrat. They would head us down that same road.

Keep in mind that there are candidates who do NOT run under the Democratic or Republican umbrella.  IF America were to get fed up with their choices and elect people based on if they are in agreement with with they stand for and how they voted instead of voting just for the sake of voting for party, we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in.  I find it disheartening that the qualifications to "qualify" and get on a ballot are different for a third party candidate then there is for a Republican or Democrat.

Years ago, I attended the Republican Club in my area during what eventually became the McCain vs. Obama race.  It was amazing that I gathered solid information as to the voting records and their opinions on issues and passed the information out and even though many liked the others candidates better they stated that they wouldn't vote for them because they didn't think they could win.  Really?  If the mindset was changed for people to vote their conscious things might be a whole lot different.