Republican leaders hope to contain outrage in the ranks over Obama immigration moves....By Robert Costa

[Bigun]

YOU won't budge?

How's that working out for so far?

Are you advocating for some other method for people to become citizens Luis?

[GourmetDan]

When was the last time you tried hiring a dishwasher?

When was the last time you paid someone the market rate before the flood of illegal aliens...

[Luis Gonzalez]

Are you advocating for some other method for people to become citizens Luis?

You say that if we don't round them up and deport them, they should not become citizens. I'm pointing out that no enforcement and legal papers is defacto amnesty.

Do you think that the vast majority of them give a rat's ass whether or not they become citizens so long as they get to stay and work legally?

Probably not.

This ship has sailed.

We lost.

[Luis Gonzalez]

When was the last time you paid someone the market rate before the flood of illegal aliens...

I paid minimum wage for level entry dishwashers then, and they are paid that now.

Show figures and data to back your points Dan.

Americans want $15/hr to work in the A/C at WalMart.

How much will they demand to do the back breaking job of harvesting low fruit that's too tender for mechanical harvesting?

[Cyber Liberty]

I sure am glad we settled on who's fault this crap with Obama is.  It's "The Damned Conservatives."  At least I should be thankful the blame isn't on "The Damned Christians" this time.

Y'all have a happy holiday, try not to eat too much turkey....

[GourmetDan]

I paid minimum wage for level entry dishwashers then, and they are paid that now.

Show figures and data to back your points Dan.

Americans want $15/hr to work in the A/C at WalMart.

How much will they demand to do the back breaking job of harvesting low fruit that's too tender for mechanical harvesting?

I didn't say minimum wage, Luis.  I said market rate before the flood of illegal aliens.

Show figures and data to prove that the market rate would be as low as it is without the flood of illegal aliens...

[Luis Gonzalez]

I didn't say minimum wage, Luis.  I said market rate before the flood of illegal aliens.

Show figures and data to prove that the market rate would be as low as it is without the flood of illegal aliens...

How much would an individual who thinks that they should earn a minimum of $15/hr to work in an air conditioned Burger King or WalMart would demand to work eight hours in a field harvesting low vegetables?

[GourmetDan]

How much would an individual who thinks that they should earn a minimum of $15/hr to work in an air conditioned Burger King or WalMart would demand to work eight hours in a field harvesting low vegetables?

How much would any individual competing for low-end jobs make without the flood of illegal aliens?  More than without that flood.

Got supply/demand understanding?

[massadvj]

Other than the fact that OPapaDoc had no legitimate authority to do what he did, I am not particularly bothered by the policy itself, except for one obvious issue that will certainly be raised down the road.

Now that we have these 5 million plus non-citizen residents, look for people on the left to harp and harp about these poor "second class citizens" with no hope for the same rights as other Americans.  They will call us an "apartheid state" and worse, and of course the MSM will provide a steady drumbeat.

At some point, the GOPe will just fold its cards on the whole thing and grant the citizenship path, and then there will be no reason for anyone to fill out any forms before coming to the USA.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I didn't say minimum wage, Luis.  I said market rate before the flood of illegal aliens.

Show figures and data to prove that the market rate would be as low as it is without the flood of illegal aliens...

You're the one who introduced the argument that market wages have been depressed as a result of illegal aliens entering the work force.

OK.

Show me.

[Luis Gonzalez]

How much would any individual competing for low-end jobs make without the flood of illegal aliens?  More than without that flood.

Got supply/demand understanding?

I know a man who ran a large multinational corporation that runs sugar mills in Florida.

He couldn't get American cutters AT ANY WAGE OFFERED, so he began importing cutters from Haiti.

He brought them here legally for the season and brought their families.

He paid them a fair wage, housed them, gave them all free medical attention, had schools set up for the kids and a clinic at each camp.

Local charities brought them clothing.

Worker's rights advocates called them "slaves" and eventually that company stopped bringing them here during the season, opting instead to mechanize.

Who depressed the wages more?

The migrant workers, or mechanization?

[GourmetDan]

You're the one who introduced the argument that market wages have been depressed as a result of illegal aliens entering the work force.

OK.

Show me.

So... your claim is that a flood of low-skilled illegal aliens increasing the supply and therefore the competition for low-end jobs does not depress the wages for those low-end jobs unless someone *proves* otherwise to you.

I'm willing to let you hold that position...

[GourmetDan]

I know a man who ran a large multinational corporation that runs sugar mills in Florida.

He couldn't get American cutters AT ANY WAGE OFFERED, so he began importing cutters from Haiti.

He brought them here legally for the season and brought their families.

He paid them a fair wage, housed them, gave them all free medical attention, had schools set up for the kids and a clinic at each camp.

Local charities brought them clothing.

Worker's rights advocates called them "slaves" and eventually that company stopped bringing them here during the season, opting instead to mechanize.

Who depressed the wages more?

The migrant workers, or mechanization?

Well, I was in the room when the president of a major U.S. corporation said that he 'made a lot of money' from illegal aliens working in his plant because he could hold wages down.

In an economy not flooded with cheap, illegal labor, mechanization and labor would find their equilibrium naturally.  By forcing wages lower with an oversupply of labor you actually hinder and delay progress and harm the lower-end of your labor force.

Both at the same time...

[Bigun]

You say that if we don't round them up and deport them, they should not become citizens. I'm pointing out that no enforcement and legal papers is defacto amnesty.

Do you think that the vast majority of them give a rat's ass whether or not they become citizens so long as they get to stay and work legally?

Probably not.

This ship has sailed.

We lost.

I have never said a word about us rounding them up and deporting them Luis. Not a word.

The can get back where they came from with  our aid IF they want to become citizens!

I know most of them don't give a rat's as about being citizens as well but there are also laws against the employing of illegals that are also part of the equation.  There are also ways for people to come here and work LEGALLY without the need to become a citizen.

In my world anyone who came here by any other means than legal would find the going VERY difficult indeed. And so would the folks that chose to take advantage of them!

[MACVSOG68]

Pardon me for correcting you but it was none other than Senator Harry Reid who killed that bill! NOT the republicans!

Umm, no.  S.1348 was killed by filibuster.  It was sponsored by Harry Reid.  Later Reid brought forward S.1649 a similar bill that was also killed by filibuster, just as the vote on Keystone recently was.  And the filibuster was led by Senator Cornyn.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I have never said a word about us rounding them up and deporting them Luis. Not a word.

The can get back where they came from with  our aid IF they want to become citizens!

I know most of them don't give a rat's as about being citizens as well but there are also laws against the employing of illegals that are also part of the equation.  There are also ways for people to come here and work LEGALLY without the need to become a citizen.

In my world anyone who came here by any other means than legal would find the going VERY difficult indeed. And so would the folks that chose to take advantage of them!

I did and you responded that saying that was OK so long as they never got citizenship.

De facto amnesty.

[Luis Gonzalez]

So... your claim is that a flood of low-skilled illegal aliens increasing the supply and therefore the competition for low-end jobs does not depress the wages for those low-end jobs unless someone *proves* otherwise to you.

I'm willing to let you hold that position...

I hold positions because I have data top support them.

"Since 1973, the average hourly earnings for workers with a high school degree or less have declined in real terms; male high school dropouts’ wages declined by 2 percent, and male high school graduates’ wages declined by 1.2 percent. At the same time, male college graduates’ wages have remained roughly constant in real terms, and men with graduate degrees experienced a 0.7-percentage-point increase in hourly earnings (Burtless, 1998a)."

Now, if you think 2% is a whole lot (minimum wage in California today being $9/hr, that amounts to eighteen cents an hour (in constant dollars) decline since 1973 and the illegal alien explosion. or @ $16/wk on a $40K/yr salary.) then you'd have an argument.

But you don't.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Other than the fact that OPapaDoc had no legitimate authority to do what he did, I am not particularly bothered by the policy itself, except for one obvious issue that will certainly be raised down the road.

Now that we have these 5 million plus non-citizen residents, look for people on the left to harp and harp about these poor "second class citizens" with no hope for the same rights as other Americans.  They will call us an "apartheid state" and worse, and of course the MSM will provide a steady drumbeat.

At some point, the GOPe will just fold its cards on the whole thing and grant the citizenship path, and then there will be no reason for anyone to fill out any forms before coming to the USA.

I've saying that this was inevitable for years.

We should have seized this and worked it to the advantage of the GOP. 

[Formerly Once-Ler]

POST OF THE DAY!

Enforce the laws already on the books - damnit!!!

I wonder why Reagan didn't think of that?

[alicewonders]

I wonder why Reagan didn't think of that?

Dredging up Reagan is completely irrelevant and is meant to deflect from what is happening today.  Not constructive. 

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Umm, no.  S.1348 was killed by filibuster.  It was sponsored by Harry Reid.  Later Reid brought forward S.1649 a similar bill that was also killed by filibuster, just as the vote on Keystone recently was.  And the filibuster was led by Senator Cornyn.

Am I reading this wrong?  Are you saying Cornyn led the filibuster of the recent Keystone bill?

[Formerly Once-Ler]

Dredging up Reagan is completely irrelevant and is meant to deflect from what is happening today.  Not constructive.

I think it is completely relevant that no president in modern times has simply enforced the silly and outdated laws already on the books.

I hear talk jocks and constitutionalists say "We don't need new laws...we need to enforce the laws nobody has enforced for 60 years."

There is little chance for many illegals to enter the US legally before they starve to death.

Hence my reply

[Formerly Once-Ler]

I've saying that this was inevitable for years.

We should have seized this and worked it to the advantage of the GOP.

Really great posts all along this thread Luis.  I can't find fault with any of your logic.

[aligncare]

One group that will benefit most by Obama's gambit are lawyers, specifically immigration attorneys, but many other specialties, too – tax, criminal, business, class-action litigation, international law, drug control law etc. They will reap untold fortunes, mostly from taxpayers, but also directly from illegals.

Illegals desperate to stay are particularly vulnerable at the hands of immigration attorneys. Immigration law has always had some gray area. But now, Obama just made it much, much worse.

[MACVSOG68]

Am I reading this wrong?  Are you saying Cornyn led the filibuster of the recent Keystone bill?

Sorry, no.  He led the filibuster of the two immigration bills in 2007.  I could have better worded that, lol.