Author Topic: Republican leaders hope to contain outrage in the ranks over Obama immigration moves....By Robert Costa  (Read 8462 times)

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Oceander

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I owe you a better response.

Right now, in this country, there is a growing portion of the population (nearly half) who do not pay any taxes with about a third of the population not owning any property, voting themselves a chunk of my earnings to provide for things that they want but can't necessarily afford.

Why should I be OK with having people who do not own property deciding how much I should pay in taxes on my property in order to better their lives?

So yes, everything you said feels right, but at the end of the day, property rights are the foundation on which freedom rests, and property rights and taxation cannot be subject to the whims of a portion of the population that either pays no taxes or owns no property. 

Why should I be OK with being lorded over by a landed elite who refuse to share political power with me?  I seem to remember a certain adage -  no taxation without representation - does it ring a bell?

And before you fling that accusation about the landless majority abusing its power, consider:  a majority of Americans own their own homes, hence are landowners.  Therefore, if the substance of property owners is being eaten out by the landless, then it is only with the connivance of a significant percentage of those very same property owners because the landless, by themselves, are a minority - a distinct minority being just a little over a third of Americans.

Sorry, but that argument, such as it is, simply falls apart when confronted with fact.  The fact is there are a whole lot of property owners who consistently vote with this landless minority, and - as my voting record shows - there is at least one landless peasant who consistently votes with you landed elitists.

Perhaps I should leave here and dedicate myself to suckling on the taxpayer teat?


Jefferson warned of the need for the tree of liberty to be watered with the blood of patriots.  Turning the landless into powerless serfs is the surest way to turn the spigot on.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 02:13:34 am by Oceander »

Oceander

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Oceander wrote above:
[[ Firstly, that makes a hollow mockery of the Declaration of Independence.  "All men are created equal"...]]

It's regrettable that Jefferson put that phrase into the Declaration. It was a great and noble notion, born of the time of The Enlightenment and when men were trying to cast off the rule of kings, but it shares little in common with reality.

As a very prescient lady once said, "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the  consequences of evading reality."

If anything, the course of events in this country over the last 50-60 years should evidence that "equality" is far easier to proclaim, than it is to attain.

Quite frankly, I believe those who have jumped the border should never be granted "equality" with law-abiding citizens. It's not a question of sending them back, which I agree isn't going to happen. But they should never be permitted "full citizenship", which includes the right to vote. Quite the contrary, I want them to remain "second class" individuals, forced to live in limbo unto death.

My opinion only and you can facepalm me all you want.
I don't give a damn...

My statement was made with respect to the pernicious view that only property owners should be entitled to vote.  It had nothing to do with the equally pernicious (mis)use of documents like the Declaration of Independence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Why should I be OK with being lorded over by a landed elite who refuse to share political power with me?  I seem to remember a certain adage -  no taxation without representation - does it ring a bell?

And before you fling that accusation about the landless majority abusing its power, consider: a majority of Americans own their own homes, hence are landowners.  Therefore, if the substance of property owners is being eaten out by the landless, then it is only with the connivance of a significant percentage of those very same property owners because the landless, by themselves, are a minority - a distinct minority being just a little over a third of Americans.

Sorry, but that argument, such as it is, simply falls apart when confronted with fact.  The fact is there are a whole lot of property owners who consistently vote with this landless minority, and - as my voting record shows - there is at least one landless peasant who consistently votes with you landed elitists.

Perhaps I should leave here and dedicate myself to suckling on the taxpayer teat?

Jefferson warned of the need for the tree of liberty to be watered with the blood of patriots.  Turning the landless into powerless serfs is the surest way to turn the spigot on.

Why should the disposition of my wealth be lorded over by a bunch of people who who contribute nothing more than a mass of votes?

BTW... this is not my idea, it was the Founders who believed it a better system, and I agree with them.

Quote
"... a majority of Americans own their own homes, hence are landowners."

So, they can vote.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 05:23:28 am by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I understand your argument and it is a great one for conservatives and elitists.  Not likely to persuade the voters needed to bring the property ownership restriction back.

Renters pay the property taxes of an apartment or trailer park in the form of rent.  Consumers pay the property taxes, and employee wages, and taxes of the business the consumers purchase from.  We all contribute.  Some more than others.  Do renters care less about our country?  Are they less informed than homeowners?  If they work they pay Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment Insurance.

I believe people who care enough to vote are more likely to be a net plus contributor than a content American who doesn't vote.  From the dreamers who serve Hitlery rubber chicken dinners, to the small business owner, to the 1%.  But statistics don't show me a huge difference between renter and homeowner voter participation.


The GOP shouldn't add any new voter restrictions to the platform, but property ownership is likely to be the least effective at weeding out the unwanted voters.  Only 10-15% of Americans owned property at the time the Constitution was ratified.  About 2/3rds of Americans live in there own homes today, but I suspect many of them rented at some point.   

Property taxes fund education primarily in most communities.  Some people have no children.  Why should parents get to dictate the taxes of single property owners?

I believe it is because those children are the ones we have saddled $?? Trillions of debt upon.  Because a majority of voters believe the government has a responsibility to promote the general welfare and growing future tax payers is integral to our continued success.
 

I couldn't agree more.

So, to wit, the greater problem is taxation.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Oceander wrote above:
[[ Firstly, that makes a hollow mockery of the Declaration of Independence.  "All men are created equal"...]]

It's regrettable that Jefferson put that phrase into the Declaration. It was a great and noble notion, born of the time of The Enlightenment and when men were trying to cast off the rule of kings, but it shares little in common with reality.

As a very prescient lady once said, "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the  consequences of evading reality."

If anything, the course of events in this country over the last 50-60 years should evidence that "equality" is far easier to proclaim, than it is to attain.

Quite frankly, I believe those who have jumped the border should never be granted "equality" with law-abiding citizens. It's not a question of sending them back, which I agree isn't going to happen. But they should never be permitted "full citizenship", which includes the right to vote. Quite the contrary, I want them to remain "second class" individuals, forced to live in limbo unto death.

My opinion only and you can facepalm me all you want.
I don't give a damn...

Having met and shook hands with one Dwight Howard, I can tell you, with little or no doubt, that all men are NOT created equal.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Oceander

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Why should the disposition of my wealth be lorded over by a bunch of people who who contribute nothing more than a mass of votes?

BTW... this is not my idea, it was the Founders who believed it a better system, and I agree with them.

So, they can vote.

Are you saying that I don't contribute a damned thing to this country simply because I don't own property?  Thanks a lot.  You do know where federal tax revenues come from, don't you?  They don't come from ad valorem property taxes, they come from income taxes.  Guess what, I work, hence earn an income, and therefore contribute substantially more than some genteel property owner who prefers to live off the property inherited from family.

Why should the disposition of my labor be lorded over by a bunch of people who contribute less than I do to the national fisc.  Those who wish to see a strong military had better be damned happy people like me exist because we contribute more vis-a-vis our labor than property owners contribute vis-a-vis their property holdings.


Perhaps the words of one of the Founders would be apropos here:  We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.

I'm willing to hang together with property owners, but not if it means enslaving myself to their political power.  I'll not take up the offer to weave the rope with which my noose is to be made.


Offline massadvj

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I'd like to arrive at a point in this country in which one cannot enrich oneself, or one's group, by the act of voting.  The purpose of voting in such a system would be to decide who gets to be the caretakers of a government that functions only for the purposes of guaranteeing the rights of citizens and providing a national defense.   

Oceander

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I'd like to arrive at a point in this country in which one cannot enrich oneself, or one's group, by the act of voting.  The purpose of voting in such a system would be to decide who gets to be the caretakers of a government that functions only for the purposes of guaranteeing the rights of citizens and providing a national defense.   

As would I.

Offline Bigun

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I'd like to arrive at a point in this country in which one cannot enrich oneself, or one's group, by the act of voting.  The purpose of voting in such a system would be to decide who gets to be the caretakers of a government that functions only for the purposes of guaranteeing the rights of citizens and providing a national defense.   

I would like to get to a point in this country where EVERYONE entitled to vote has some REAL skin in the game! That is very far from the case today!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Everyone has skin in the game, whether that be the value of one's labor or the value of one's capital.  Folks claim to be for individual freedom, and yet they wish to strip that freedom from some simply because they don't meet certain accidental criteria.

Privileging one over the other simply leads to catastrophe, sooner or later.  Pre-revolution Russia privileged property over labor - serfs were essentially property with no right to control their labor - and that ended up in the Russian revolution and Soviet communism.  Soviet communism privileged labor over property - property owners were treated as little more than thieves and their property summarily taken - and that ended up in decades of human misery and, ultimately, Vladimir Putin.

We either hang together, labor and capital, or we shall surely hang separately.

Offline Bigun

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Quote
Everyone has skin in the game...

Not in anything like fair proportion they don't and YOU know it! 

The very wealthy, your clients I presume, can avail themselves of all manner of mechanisms which allow them to live very well indeed with little or no "income". 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Not in anything like fair proportion they don't and YOU know it! 

The very wealthy, your clients I presume, can avail themselves of all manner of mechanisms which allow them to live very well indeed with little or no "income". 


Then I'm afraid I part company with you.  My individual liberty is as precious to me as any amount of wealth, and I take great umbrage that you would consign me to chains because I don't own real estate.

Offline Bigun

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Then I'm afraid I part company with you.  My individual liberty is as precious to me as any amount of wealth, and I take great umbrage that you would consign me to chains because I don't own real estate.

I've been a little busy this morning and thus not able to entirely keep up with this thread.  Let me attempt to correct that now at least as far as you are concerned!

I do not disagree with you about property taxes. In fact, they would cease to exist entirely if I had my way.  My problem, as you well know, is with the Marxist INCOME tax and it's attendant IRS.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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I've been a little busy this morning and thus not able to entirely keep up with this thread.  Let me attempt to correct that now at least as far as you are concerned!

I do not disagree with you about property taxes. In fact, they would cease to exist entirely if I had my way.  My problem, as you well know, is with the Marxist INCOME tax and it's attendant IRS.

But that still doesn't explain why I should be rendered politically powerless because I don't own real property.  Those who cannot vote are, almost by definition, slaves, and I will not willingly be enslaved.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Then I'm afraid I part company with you.  My individual liberty is as precious to me as any amount of wealth, and I take great umbrage that you would consign me to chains because I don't own real estate.

There are only two reasons why you wouldn't own property.

You made a choice not to or you can't afford it.

The theory behind only property owners voting is that it would keep taxation to a minimum. If that were the case then (in theory) you would be better able to own property and as a result you would be able to vote and more Americans would be able to own property and vote. If you opted not to own property for any number of reasons, then you decided not to partcipate in the political system.

Your individual rights are indeed under attack and there are chains on you, both as a results of the actions of politicians voted into office by the polity at large. Since my (the Founders') idea is not a reality now and hasn't been one in quite some time and considering that our liberty and our wealth have both suffered great losses in the last fifty plus years, I'd say that your idea is more dangerous to both liberty and wealth than mine.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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But that still doesn't explain why I should be rendered politically powerless because I don't own real property.  Those who cannot vote are, almost by definition, slaves, and I will not willingly be enslaved.

That's absurd.

Those who do not vote remain protected by the same Constitution that protege those who do vote.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Oceander

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That's absurd.

Those who do not vote remain protected by the same Constitution that protege those who do vote.


That comment is beneath you.  Constitutional rights don't mean bugger all if you don't have the political power to protect them.  The Soviet constitution was chock full of protections for the average Soviet citizen - for all the good it did them.

If I don't have a vote, then I have no ability to influence whether, or how, the Constitution gets amended, which means I have no means of protecting my Constitutional rights from being excised by those who can vote - the property owners.  The Constitution can be amended two ways:  (1) Congress proposes amendments which are then ratified, or not, by three-fourths of the state legislatures or conventions held in the states, or (2) two thirds of the state legislatures call for a convention proposing amendments which are then ratified, or not, by three-fourths of the state legislatures or conventions held in the states.  The choice of ratification by the legislatures or by conventions is at the discretion of Congress.  Thus, under your proposal, property owners would control the process of proposing amendments because they control both Congress and the state legislatures, and they control the ratification process because they control Congress and can therefore ensure that ratification is always by the state legislatures, which they control.

If I do not have the power of the vote, then my Constitutional rights are worthless, and exist only at the whim and caprice of those who do have the power of the vote.  In other words, without the power to vote I have no rights under the Constitution, period.

Or are property owners so enlightened and benevolent that they can be trusted to rule me with my best interests in mind?  I had thought that one of the object lessons of the Obama (mal)administration was a thoroughgoing debunking of the myth that one group of humans are so wise, so insightful, and so moral that they can, and should, govern in our own best interests, and do so better than any of us could for our own selves.

Offline truth_seeker

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There are only two reasons why you wouldn't own property.

You made a choice not to or you can't afford it.

Entirely untrue. I have met many people that pay much more in taxes, because they choose to not own property.

Various reasons, including frequent transfers, prefer spending on other things, etc. During the mid 1980s I spoke with a senior officer of a multi-national company. He held high positions, and had NEVER owned a home by his mid 50s. The company often provided his housing.

He mad a very high pay package, and no doubt paid big taxes.

Don't forget as well, the real estate debacle of recent years. Many people have been taught to not trust real estate ownership, rightly or wrongly.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Entirely untrue. I have met many people that pay much more in taxes, because they choose to not own property.

Various reasons, including frequent transfers, prefer spending on other things, etc. During the mid 1980s I spoke with a senior officer of a multi-national company. He held high positions, and had NEVER owned a home by his mid 50s. The company often provided his housing.

He mad a very high pay package, and no doubt paid big taxes.

Don't forget as well, the real estate debacle of recent years. Many people have been taught to not trust real estate ownership, rightly or wrongly.

All personal choices.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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That comment is beneath you.  Constitutional rights don't mean bugger all if you don't have the political power to protect them.  The Soviet constitution was chock full of protections for the average Soviet citizen - for all the good it did them.

If I don't have a vote, then I have no ability to influence whether, or how, the Constitution gets amended, which means I have no means of protecting my Constitutional rights from being excised by those who can vote - the property owners.  The Constitution can be amended two ways:  (1) Congress proposes amendments which are then ratified, or not, by three-fourths of the state legislatures or conventions held in the states, or (2) two thirds of the state legislatures call for a convention proposing amendments which are then ratified, or not, by three-fourths of the state legislatures or conventions held in the states.  The choice of ratification by the legislatures or by conventions is at the discretion of Congress.  Thus, under your proposal, property owners would control the process of proposing amendments because they control both Congress and the state legislatures, and they control the ratification process because they control Congress and can therefore ensure that ratification is always by the state legislatures, which they control.

If I do not have the power of the vote, then my Constitutional rights are worthless, and exist only at the whim and caprice of those who do have the power of the vote.  In other words, without the power to vote I have no rights under the Constitution, period.

Or are property owners so enlightened and benevolent that they can be trusted to rule me with my best interests in mind?  I had thought that one of the object lessons of the Obama (mal)administration was a thoroughgoing debunking of the myth that one group of humans are so wise, so insightful, and so moral that they can, and should, govern in our own best interests, and do so better than any of us could for our own selves.

So then, according to you, under our current method we have the political power to protect them.

Why then are they not being protected?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Oceander

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So then, according to you, under our current method we have the political power to protect them.

Why then are they not being protected?

I am saying that without the vote I have no possibility of protecting my rights.  That is a far different thing than saying that having the vote, per se, automatically protects my rights.  The truth of a proposition does not guarantee the truth of the converse.

As far as protecting the rights of the landed gentry: since more than half the US voters own their own homes, and are therefore part of the landed gentry, it necessarily follows that if those rights are being ignored it is because a sufficient number of the landed gentry have chosen to vote against their interests, for whatever reason.  Since we landless peasants are in the minority it is by definition impossible for us to be the cause of the injury to the rights of the landed gentry.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I am saying that without the vote I have no possibility of protecting my rights.  That is a far different thing than saying that having the vote, per se, automatically protects my rights.  The truth of a proposition does not guarantee the truth of the converse.

As far as protecting the rights of the landed gentry: since more than half the US voters own their own homes, and are therefore part of the landed gentry, it necessarily follows that if those rights are being ignored it is because a sufficient number of the landed gentry have chosen to vote against their interests, for whatever reason.  Since we landless peasants are in the minority it is by definition impossible for us to be the cause of the injury to the rights of the landed gentry.

You can drop the Marxist "landed gentry" stuff, owning a piece of property does not make one landed gentry. As you yourself pointed out, a solid two-thirds of Americans own their own home. Those two-thirds are far from being gentry, landed or otherwise.

Here's the point behind this entire debate.

The Founders' idea was that an informed voter, with skin in the game, made for the best voter, and since there as no direct taxation of incomes the tax revenues necessary to run the government came primarily from property owners and owners of businesses, these individuals, directly impacted by all laws and statutes passed by elected public servants, had a vested interest in understanding the policy and governing ideas of political candidates, and opted to keep taxation and governmental interference with private enterprise to a low.

People who did not own property or owned a business had no reason to inform themselves of the issues and political ideology of candidates, since those decisions seldom affected them. Their votes, if allowed to be offered, would be based on nothing but guessing, limited knowledge, or influence by the popular media of the day... does this have an ring of familiarity? This notion that limiting the vote to "landed gentry" (your words) would be a bad thing and offensive to liberty is very much a collectivist view of society, and frankly quite mistaken. It is in fact the best way to preserve liberty. The practice of trading votes for entitlements was one that the Founders wanted to avoid in the American system of government, since it would corrupt the political process and destroy liberty by subjecting the minorities (those with above average wealth) to the whims of an omnipotent majority when it came to taxation. That is the very antithesis of a Constitutional Republic.

Obviously, universal suffrage became the rule of law, driven by the Jeffersonian ideal of equality enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, and here we are today. with less liberty than those people enjoyed prior to suffrage, higher taxes, and a runaway entitlement system (voted into existence by voters who supported politicians based on the "what will you give me in exchange for my vote?" line of thinking) so out of control that it is now being used as a center piece to attract people from other countries to come here and live off of it, so that politicians can manipulate a polity that will support further expansion of that entitlement State by trading votes for gifts from the public coffers, where those coffers are filled with the wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

So, the greater danger to  liberty, and the system that has in fact turned us all into slaves to the State via a national debt created by the State is the Universal suffrage system that's in place right now, not the original vision of the Founders long dead.
 

 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 05:34:59 am by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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You can drop the Marxist "landed gentry" stuff, owning a piece of property does not make one landed gentry. As you yourself pointed out, a solid two-thirds of Americans own their own home. Those two-thirds are far from being gentry, landed or otherwise.

Here's the point behind this entire debate.

The Founders' idea was that an informed voter, with skin in the game, made for the best voter, and since there as no direct taxation of incomes the tax revenues necessary to run the government came primarily from property owners and owners of businesses, these individuals, directly impacted by all laws and statutes passed by elected public servants, had a vested interest in understanding the policy and governing ideas of political candidates, and opted to keep taxation and governmental interference with private enterprise to a low.

People who did not own property or owned a business had no reason to inform themselves of the issues and political ideology of candidates, since those decisions seldom affected them. Their votes, if allowed to be offered, would be based on nothing but guessing, limited knowledge, or influence by the popular media of the day... does this have an ring of familiarity? This notion that limiting the vote to "landed gentry" (your words) would be a bad thing and offensive to liberty is very much a collectivist view of society, and frankly quite mistaken. It is in fact the best way to preserve liberty. The practice of trading votes for entitlements was one that the Founders wanted to avoid in the American system of government, since it would corrupt the political process and destroy liberty by subjecting the minorities (those with above average wealth) to the whims of an omnipotent majority when it came to taxation. That is the very antithesis of a Constitutional Republic.

Obviously, universal suffrage became the rule of law, driven by the Jeffersonian ideal of equality enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, and here we are today. with less liberty than those people enjoyed prior to suffrage, higher taxes, and a runaway entitlement system (voted into existence by voters who supported politicians based on the "what will you give me in exchange for my vote?" line of thinking) so out of control that it is now being used as a center piece to attract people from other countries to come here and live off of it, so that politicians can manipulate a polity that will support further expansion of that entitlement State by trading votes for gifts from the public coffers, where those coffers are filled with the wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

So, the greater danger to  liberty, and the system that has in fact turned us all into slaves to the State via a national debt created by the State is the Universal suffrage system that's in place right now, not the original vision of the Founders long dead.

That is a pretty impressive argument. blij26

So compelling that I'm ready to admit defeat. Next stop Washington.  So, how do we take back the vote from the renters?  I'm willing to sign a petition but not part with my money.

Seriously.  Thanks for taking the time to make your case.         

Oceander

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You can drop the Marxist "landed gentry" stuff, owning a piece of property does not make one landed gentry. As you yourself pointed out, a solid two-thirds of Americans own their own home. Those two-thirds are far from being gentry, landed or otherwise.

Here's the point behind this entire debate.

The Founders' idea was that an informed voter, with skin in the game, made for the best voter, and since there as no direct taxation of incomes the tax revenues necessary to run the government came primarily from property owners and owners of businesses, these individuals, directly impacted by all laws and statutes passed by elected public servants, had a vested interest in understanding the policy and governing ideas of political candidates, and opted to keep taxation and governmental interference with private enterprise to a low.

People who did not own property or owned a business had no reason to inform themselves of the issues and political ideology of candidates, since those decisions seldom affected them. Their votes, if allowed to be offered, would be based on nothing but guessing, limited knowledge, or influence by the popular media of the day... does this have an ring of familiarity? This notion that limiting the vote to "landed gentry" (your words) would be a bad thing and offensive to liberty is very much a collectivist view of society, and frankly quite mistaken. It is in fact the best way to preserve liberty. The practice of trading votes for entitlements was one that the Founders wanted to avoid in the American system of government, since it would corrupt the political process and destroy liberty by subjecting the minorities (those with above average wealth) to the whims of an omnipotent majority when it came to taxation. That is the very antithesis of a Constitutional Republic.

Obviously, universal suffrage became the rule of law, driven by the Jeffersonian ideal of equality enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, and here we are today. with less liberty than those people enjoyed prior to suffrage, higher taxes, and a runaway entitlement system (voted into existence by voters who supported politicians based on the "what will you give me in exchange for my vote?" line of thinking) so out of control that it is now being used as a center piece to attract people from other countries to come here and live off of it, so that politicians can manipulate a polity that will support further expansion of that entitlement State by trading votes for gifts from the public coffers, where those coffers are filled with the wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

So, the greater danger to  liberty, and the system that has in fact turned us all into slaves to the State via a national debt created by the State is the Universal suffrage system that's in place right now, not the original vision of the Founders long dead.
 

 


I'm glad the term "landed gentry" stings - it was supposed to.

Your willful historical blindness is surprising.  In every country where the vote has been denied to a significant portion of the populace, war has inevitably broken out once the subjugation by those with the vote became unbearable.  Was South Africa peaceful, were individual liberties generally respected, during Apartheid?  Was India peaceful, were individual liberties generally respected, in India prior to independence in 1947?  Was Russia peaceful, were individual liberties respected, in Russia prior to the Revolution?  Was the Soviet Union peaceful, were individual liberties respected, between 1917 and 1989?  Was East Germany peaceful, were individual liberties respected, prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall?  Do I have to go on?

Are there risks from universal suffrage?  Of course there are.  Not the least is the risk, evident in some countries of late, that the voters will elect authoritarians who then seize power and abolish the vote.  But those risks pale into insignificance in the face of the bloodletting that inevitably takes place if a significant portion of the populace is denied the vote.

If African Americans had been allowed the vote back in 1789, do you think they would have long consented to remain slaves?  Do you think the Civil War would have been inevitable as it was in that circumstance?

When a significant part of a country's populace is denied the vote, the only civil rights or individual liberties that get respected are those of the remainder who do have the vote.

As to the wisdom of property owners:  every single democrat in Congress is a property owner.  Are they informed of the issues of the day and attuned to the protections of individual liberty?  Barack Obama owns property; is he a paragon of wisdom because of that?  Tom Steyer is a very substantial property owner; is he in the least bit fully informed of the issues and does he take prudent, responsible positions on those issues?

The existence of the current entitlement system is the death-knell to the myth that property owners are, qua property owners, wiser and better at making political decisions that affect everyone, including those who do not own property.  Why?  Because it was created by property owners:  the property owners in Congress and the majority property owners in this country who nonetheless support the members of Congress who set that system up.  Property owners are the majority in this country and therefore the entitlement system cannot be laid at the feet of the propertyless, of those whose votes are, under your assumption, purchased in exchange for government largesse, because even if every single one of us accepted that offer, it would still not be enough to elect enough such politicians to create the entitlement system against the interests - and voting power - of those who own property.

As to the belief of some of the Founders that the vote should have been limited to property owners:  they weren't infallible; the fact that they wrote into the Constitution the very seeds of the Civil War by retaining the institution of slavery is proof enough.  They were wrong on slavery and those who believed that limiting the vote to property owners would guarantee liberty were also wrong.

There's an old canard about the idiocy of the under-21 drinking age:  18 year olds are old enough to fight and die for their country, but not old enough to have a beer before or after.  That goes double for the idea of limiting the vote to property owners:  those who own nothing could - would - still be drafted to fight and die for their country, but would have no say in whether they were to be impressed into service.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I'm glad the term "landed gentry" stings - it was supposed to.

Your willful historical blindness is surprising.  In every country where the vote has been denied to a significant portion of the populace, war has inevitably broken out once the subjugation by those with the vote became unbearable.  Was South Africa peaceful, were individual liberties generally respected, during Apartheid?  Was India peaceful, were individual liberties generally respected, in India prior to independence in 1947?  Was Russia peaceful, were individual liberties respected, in Russia prior to the Revolution?  Was the Soviet Union peaceful, were individual liberties respected, between 1917 and 1989?  Was East Germany peaceful, were individual liberties respected, prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall?  Do I have to go on?

Are there risks from universal suffrage?  Of course there are.  Not the least is the risk, evident in some countries of late, that the voters will elect authoritarians who then seize power and abolish the vote.  But those risks pale into insignificance in the face of the bloodletting that inevitably takes place if a significant portion of the populace is denied the vote.

If African Americans had been allowed the vote back in 1789, do you think they would have long consented to remain slaves?  Do you think the Civil War would have been inevitable as it was in that circumstance?

When a significant part of a country's populace is denied the vote, the only civil rights or individual liberties that get respected are those of the remainder who do have the vote.

As to the wisdom of property owners:  every single democrat in Congress is a property owner.  Are they informed of the issues of the day and attuned to the protections of individual liberty?  Barack Obama owns property; is he a paragon of wisdom because of that?  Tom Steyer is a very substantial property owner; is he in the least bit fully informed of the issues and does he take prudent, responsible positions on those issues?

The existence of the current entitlement system is the death-knell to the myth that property owners are, qua property owners, wiser and better at making political decisions that affect everyone, including those who do not own property.  Why?  Because it was created by property owners:  the property owners in Congress and the majority property owners in this country who nonetheless support the members of Congress who set that system up.  Property owners are the majority in this country and therefore the entitlement system cannot be laid at the feet of the propertyless, of those whose votes are, under your assumption, purchased in exchange for government largesse, because even if every single one of us accepted that offer, it would still not be enough to elect enough such politicians to create the entitlement system against the interests - and voting power - of those who own property.

As to the belief of some of the Founders that the vote should have been limited to property owners:  they weren't infallible; the fact that they wrote into the Constitution the very seeds of the Civil War by retaining the institution of slavery is proof enough.  They were wrong on slavery and those who believed that limiting the vote to property owners would guarantee liberty were also wrong.

There's an old canard about the idiocy of the under-21 drinking age:  18 year olds are old enough to fight and die for their country, but not old enough to have a beer before or after.  That goes double for the idea of limiting the vote to property owners:  those who own nothing could - would - still be drafted to fight and die for their country, but would have no say in whether they were to be impressed into service.
 

You using Marxist propaganda to support your position doesn't sting me. It just illustrates what position you're arguing from.

Here's the undeniable fact.

Since universal suffrage became the rule of law in the land we're all less free and in deeper debt than at any time in the history of the nation prior to it.

P.S. There is no right to vote. At least not according to SCOTUS.

P.S.S. Conscription is unconstitutional.

P.S.S.S. The property owners who created the entitlement system did so after being elected to office by suffraged voters that they made entitlements for votes promises to.

P.S.S.S.S. So, in a conservative forum where the idea that voters voting for politicians based on how much those politicians promise to get them in entitlements is pretty much an accepted truism, you want to argue that this is not a fact?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx