In The Throes Of A REAL Coup...

[Axeslinger]

@LegalAmerican   You hit the nail exactly on the head. 

The most virulent Trump critics will not change, will not budge, will not see reason.  They are totally wrapped up in their own virtue and their own views of morality.

And yet, and yet, they have the Colossal Nerve to expect Trump to change.

It boggles the mind.

@Emjay

And once again we have an AT who is either clueless or willfully obtuse.  We do NOT expect trump to change.  Our beef is with the authoritarian wannabes like yourself who simply CANNOT accept that we have a different opinion of trump than you do.  M
Are we actively working to undermine him? NO
Do we think that all of the Mueller stuff is crap and a danger to the Republic?  YES
Are we going to vote for our local R Congress critter this November to at least try to maintain the majority?  YES
Do we think trump has done some things worth a damn?  YES
Have we admitted as much?  YES

And still that’s not good enough for all of you.   I’m sorry, but y’all are doing more to damage trump than any of us because you refuse to accept our God given right to think what we want as Free men.  Both you and the Dems want us to crouch down and kiss the hand that feeds us.  That will be a cold day in hell.   Look in the mirror, you are the problem.

[corbe]

   At least you admit @Mesaclone that he cares. 
   There are a few others here that believe as he does, me included, that it's all FUBAR at this point with the GOP and the senseless infighting further obliterates any hope that we could possibly have. 
   It's not lost on me that Trumpers, in General, have spent the last 20 months on my useless azz instead of the dems.   

[INVAR]

Right now, Trump is the ONLY real weapon we have in this fight.

Then you have already lost the war if you think that Trump is your only weapon.  I'm not surprised you would make such a statement because it is not any different than when it was insisted that only Trump can save us and only Trump can do the miracles needed to defeat the Left.

I'm not into political messiahs and monarchy, even if many of you by default in your insistences, are.

That's all good .... but why do try so hard hour after hour, day after day, year after year to convince others not to fight?

Fight?

You you are not 'fighting' at all.  You're playing politics.  You're busy fighting the symptoms of a war you have already dismissed or surrendered to.  You yourself said that Conservatism could never win another election.   You're playing a silly sports game and think yourselves minutemen based on how loud you cheer Trump and vote for those with Rs after their name.  You castigate the advocacy of the very principles and morality that make liberty and a civil society as intended for us, even possible.  You want to fight what in essence is a spiritual war for the soul of a wayward culture with top-down politics and you get upset when character deficiencies, stupidity and apostasy of those same principles are pointed out when your vaunted political messiahs and saviors abridge them.

You're not fighting.  You're simply playing a game with your choice of politician to go up against their politician and go about knocking this one to obtain advantage - when the rules of the game itself are so perverted and corrupted that liberty loses no matter what pieces you move that you may think are going to keep you in the game.  Meanwhile you're busy ridiculing and bashing those of us fighting a different war against the root causes of why we have arrived at this point in our culture and politics.  Your whole focus in on fighting the symptoms due the war you seem to have already surrendered to, or counted as lost. So in that regard, we have the same exact view of each other's chosen battlefield: as a lost cause.

We were a nation forged from the bottom, on up.  Not the top on down.  You cannot stop where we are going simply by electing people to high office.

Fix the culture, return us to the foundations you and others say can never win another election, and such a people will be able to maintain liberty and select representatives that are faithful to those foundations.  Keep voting for neo-monarchs to 'save you' from the clutches of a wicked and despicable ideology - you still lose what you think you are fighting for. 

"But should the People of America, once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another and towards foreign nations, which assumes the Language of Justice and moderation while it is practicing Iniquity and Extravagance; and displays in the most captivating manner the charming Pictures of Candour frankness & sincerity while it is rioting in rapine and Insolence: this Country will be the most miserable Habitation in the World. We have no Government armed with Power capable of contending with human Passions unbridled by morality and Religion. Avarice, Ambition, Revenge or Galantry, would break the strongest Cords of our Constitution as a Whale goes through a Net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. " - John Adams October 11, 1798

[Absalom]

[que author=Sanguine link=topic=332738.msg1798656#msg1798656 date=1537479237]
Good question.  And, the answer is, those who seek to transform both our society and our government, and those who are in a position of power and let it happen.
[/quote]
-----------------------------
Sound response, yet who decides which vision is correct;
those promoting change or those the status quo???
This is why I assert, those who waive the Constitution as
the answer, are preaching to themselves and justly ignored.
Any disagreement over ideas can only be won by those
w/the superior vision that has been validated by time.
Sadly many would rather just pound the table!!!
 

[Sanguine]

[que author=Sanguine link=topic=332738.msg1798656#msg1798656 date=1537479237]
Good question.  And, the answer is, those who seek to transform both our society and our government, and those who are in a position of power and let it happen.

-----------------------------
Sound response, yet who decides which vision is correct; those promoting change or those the status quo???

This is why I assert, those who waive the Constitution as the answer, are preaching to themselves and justly ignored.

Any disagreement over ideas can only be won by those w/the superior vision that has been validated by time.

Sadly many would rather just pound the table!!!

Well, let's reason through this. 

Why are we a country?  Because many years ago, the founders of this country got together and set it up as a country, and based that establishment upon a written constitution that defines the way the country is set up and the legal basis for being a nation.

As to your comment, I'm against waiving the Constitution.  If we do, there is no legal basis for the existence of our country.

You also mention those with "superior vision validated by time".  Sounds like the Founders.

Was that what you were proposing? 

[Emjay]

@Emjay

And once again we have an AT who is either clueless or willfully obtuse.  We do NOT expect trump to change.  Our beef is with the authoritarian wannabes like yourself who simply CANNOT accept that we have a different opinion of trump than you do.  M
Are we actively working to undermine him? NO
Do we think that all of the Mueller stuff is crap and a danger to the Republic?  YES
Are we going to vote for our local R Congress critter this November to at least try to maintain the majority?  YES
Do we think trump has done some things worth a damn?  YES
Have we admitted as much?  YES

And still that’s not good enough for all of you.   I’m sorry, but y’all are doing more to damage trump than any of us because you refuse to accept our God given right to think what we want as Free men.  Both you and the Dems want us to crouch down and kiss the hand that feeds us.  That will be a cold day in hell.   Look in the mirror, you are the problem.

Well, golly @Axeslinger   I hope you enjoyed beating the hell out of me but I didn't really enjoy being the receiving end. 

I am not an Always Trumper.  My dislike of Trump got me kicked off of TOS and when I first came on this site prior to the election I was just as full of hate for him.

I've explained numerous times that I was sick with fear that Hillary would be elected and one reason I didn't like Trump was I didn't think he could possibly be elected.

When he was actually elected I was so relieved that I decided to give Trump a chance in my own mind.

I think he's acquitted himself far better than I could have dreamed and, while he's not my cup of cocoa in his personality, I think he's been a dang good President and done far more good things in his term so far than I would have believed possible.

I don't care if you like Trump or not.  I don't care if you like me or not.

I was talking about the people who whine for Trump to change while refusing to change themselves.

Trump has been Trump for 72 years.  He's not gonna change.  If you can't accept him the way he is, that is entirely up to you.

But don't blame me if the forces of evil take over.

[Emjay]

   At least you admit @Mesaclone that he cares. 
   There are a few others here that believe as he does, me included, that it's all FUBAR at this point with the GOP and the senseless infighting further obliterates any hope that we could possibly have. 
   It's not lost on me that Trumpers, in General, have spent the last 20 months on my useless azz instead of the dems.

@corbe   You believe as INVAR does, corbe?  That is so interesting.  By the way, I haven't seen anyone attack you or get on your azz except maybe me.  You are too bland and not irritating like other NTers.

As far as people railing against the Dems, corbe, they are not here.  Railing against them would be useless but railing against self-important NTers is just loads of fun.

[corbe]

  Absolutely no one is going to blame you @Emjay for the inevitable demise of our Country, especially if @Right_in_Virginia is still around.

[Jazzhead]

   

   @INVAR debates his position passionately, as most of us do here, including you, @Right_in_Virginia
    It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon or even a Trumper to see that he doesn't care if anyone fights are not, the game is already over.

Then he's a damn fool.  And no, his God isn't going to save him.   God is no excuse for passivity, or hectoring the rest of us to give up.   

[Sanguine]

@corbe   You believe as INVAR does, corbe?  That is so interesting.  By the way, I haven't seen anyone attack you or get on your azz except maybe me.  You are too bland and not irritating like other NTers.

As far as people railing against the Dems, corbe, they are not here.  Railing against them would be useless but railing against self-important NTers is just loads of fun.

Corbe bland?  Come on, @Emjay, he may be a lot of things, but bland he ain't.   

[corbe]

    I am a card carrying Invarmunist @Emjay. 
    It comes with a free Costco membership, you should check it out.

[Emjay]

  Absolutely no one is going to blame you @Emjay for the inevitable demise of our Country, especially if @Right_in_Virginia is still around.

Seriously, corbe, I know you don't like her but I've never seen RIV be as utterly horrible to anyone as some people have been to me lately.

And I'm not expecting an immediate demise of the country.  We are finally on the right track and if we can get you and Invar off your prayer mats to come and help us, we will prevail.

[Cyber Liberty]

[corbe]

   To address you first point, seriously, @Emjay
   More often than not, I value and respect the contribution that @Right_in_Virginia and like minded people, including you, bring here~ just as I do Invar and many, many others, just more aligned on the Invar side.

   When you ask me to get off my prayer rug, well, that's a bit disconcerting and makes me even more want to ask you what I wanted to yesterday, 'Who pizzed in your Wheaties?'

[Emjay]

   To address you first point, seriously, @Emjay
   More often than not, I value and respect the contribution that @Right_in_Virginia and like minded people, including you, bring here~ just as I do Invar and many, many others, just more aligned on the Invar side.

   When you ask me to get off my prayer rug, well, that's a bit disconcerting and makes me even more want to ask you what I wanted to yesterday, 'Who pizzed in your Wheaties?'

Apparently someone did because I have ticked off more than the usual number of people today.

You said you agree with @INVAR about things and I've never seen a post of his that wasn't touting his own morality and comparing it favorably to the morality of others, especially Trump supporters.  And he is constantly playing the religion card so I thought maybe you were with him on that also.

Really, I was just kidding you.  If it hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.  I need all the friends I can get as I lost 3 more yesterday and today.

[corbe]

   I'm gonna go out on a limb here @Emjay and proclaim that I'm not a very Religious person and though I see that angle in Invar's posts, and many other's here, It doesn't bother me.  I'm truly grateful for all of their contributions and insight.   Some of my best Friends here are Christians.

[Emjay]

   I'm gonna go out on a limb here @Emjay and proclaim that I'm not a very Religious person and though I see that angle in Invar's posts, and many other's here, It doesn't bother me.  I'm truly grateful for all of their contributions and insight.   Some of my best Friends here are Christians.

Hey, babe, I've been a Christian all my life and I've studied the teachings of Jesus many, many years in many Bible classes.

True Christianity does not involve being like the Pharisee who said, I thank God that I am not as other men, but in loving others and accepting them.

So I'll admit to not being the kind of Christian I ought to be but I don't think he is that good an example either.

[truth_seeker]

For purposes of clarity....is that a yes or a no.

Noting the cranial extraction was suspended unfinished, the attention was  none the less provided.

[corbe]

Hey, babe, I've been a Christian all my life and I've studied the teachings of Jesus many, many years in many Bible classes.

True Christianity does not involve being like the Pharisee who said, I thank God that I am not as other men, but in loving others and accepting them.

So I'll admit to not being the kind of Christian I ought to be but I don't think he is that good an example either.

   Yesterday my mom's (non gay Lutheran demonination) Minister came to see her in the hospital, took out his Ipad and prayed, as he waked out I mumbled something about Jimmy Swaggart louder than I thought I had, my two devout sisters let me have it with both barrels as my maw lay there on a Morphine drip, in G_d's hands of course. Still a little apprehensive about the subject.

[Emjay]

   Yesterday my mom's (non gay Lutheran demonination) Minister came to see her in the hospital, took out his Ipad and prayed, as he waked out I mumbled something about Jimmy Swaggart louder than I thought I had, my two devout sisters let me have it with both barrels as my maw lay there on a Morphine drip, in G_d's hands of course. Still a little apprehensive about the subject.

That was so not the right time for that, corbe and I think you know it.  If this was Jimmy Swaggart himself and he was giving comfort to your mom, that would have been a good time to shut up.

And, by the way, Jimmy was a really good gospel singer.

[corbe]

   Yea, I get that @Emjay, she got home today and neither sister called me to ask when I was coming over.  Did I mention they are all a bunch of trollable Trumpers?

[Absalom]

Well, I personally do not feel a lot of malaise.  I feel optimism and hope.  I think we are on the right track and I think, with all her flaws, America is the greatest country ever.

I get disgusted at the left and at Hollywood and the media but it comforts me to know that they are in a more inchoate state of rage at Trump than anyone here could possibly be.

--------------------------------
So America is the greatest ever???
Reflect on these a moment.
* Representative Governance in the form of a Republic or Democracy (Pericles and Solon).
* Geometry, which showed the creation of structure in 3-dimensi space (Euclid and Pythagoras).
* History, a timeline of the past identifying place and person (Herodotus and Thucydides).
* Stories reflecting the experiences of Man in the form of the:
   #Novel (Homer's Iliad and Odyssey),
   #Drama (such as the Comedies of Aristophanes or the Tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles),
   #Poetry (Pindar).
* Architecture, including the Acropolis and Parthenon.
* Logic and Philosophy (Plato and Aristotle).
* Science, among them:
   #Botany which measured the economic importance of plant life; the catalyst for formal Agriculture,
   #Biology which determined the life span of living organisms,
   #Medicine which identified and sought the cure of disease, leading to Surgery,
   #Physics which measured energy, force and motion within mature.
These are a few of the creations from the Greeks of Athens, Corinth, Thebes
and the rest; spanning dozens of pages in the Britannica.
Humility not hubris is the prerequisite for reflection and learning; understanding that we are mere
dwarfs who understand what we do because of the legacy of knowledge and wisdom created by the Giants of Antiquity who preceded us and upon whose shoulders we stand!!!

[Absalom]

Well, let's reason through this. 

Why are we a country?  Because many years ago, the founders of this country got together and set it up as a country, and based that establishment upon a written constitution that defines the way the country is set up and the legal basis for being a nation.

As to your comment, I'm against waiving the Constitution.  If we do, there is no legal basis for the existence of our country.

You also mention those with "superior vision validated by time".  Sounds like the Founders.

Was that what you were proposing?

---------------------------------------
Not proposing anything specific, simply exchanging ideas w/you.
Yet referencing the Founders is both laudable and powerful;
rather than pounding the table.

[Sanguine]

---------------------------------------
Not proposing anything specific, simply exchanging ideas w/you.
Yet referencing the Founders is both laudable and powerful;
rather than pounding the table.

 

[Mesaclone]

   At least you admit @Mesaclone that he cares. 
   There are a few others here that believe as he does, me included, that it's all FUBAR at this point with the GOP and the senseless infighting further obliterates any hope that we could possibly have. 
   It's not lost on me that Trumpers, in General, have spent the last 20 months on my useless azz instead of the dems.

That's unfair, we "Trumpers" are great at multi-tasking.

You are angry that Trump supporters have pressured and criticized you for your position...I get it. Heck, I deal with NT folks (not the majority of them, but a significant minority) nearly every day who are spiteful, angry and who thrive only on ad hominem and false-cliche'd arguments. I would likely feel as you do were I in your shoes, initially, but holding to a position that's unsupportable simply to spite people who's behavior you resent is...perhaps...not the path of wisdom.

Perhaps you should look at the words of the great Mahatma Gandhi and apply it to this situation..."I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians."