Author Topic: 10'000 Mayan Ruins  (Read 529 times)

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Online bigheadfred

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10'000 Mayan Ruins
« on: February 04, 2026, 08:34:24 am »
This is a twelve minute video showing Lidar scans of a relatively small swath of the Yucatan Peninsula.


https://twitter.com/AncientEpoch/status/2018831471533006920
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2026, 11:08:46 am »
That was awesome! I have long contended that there must be more to it down there...

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2026, 11:16:53 am »
For later.
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Offline Polly Ticks

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2026, 11:22:12 am »



Bookmarking so I can come back to it when I can listen.

Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2026, 11:38:16 am »
Did the Mayans have building permits and zoning approvals for those buildings?
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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2026, 11:39:19 am »
LIDAR is amazing tech. They are finding all sorts of stuff everywhere.
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Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2026, 11:44:25 am »
lIDAR has been a gift for archaeology and anthropologists ... proving that so many previous 'assumptions' by pompous 'experts' have been wrong.

Ancient civilizations may have been technologically less advanced than we are now, but they were far from 'primitive'.

Scientists are dicovering that ancient peoples were far more capable than academics gave them credit for.
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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2026, 11:49:50 am »
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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2026, 11:57:11 am »
This is a twelve minute video showing Lidar scans of a relatively small swath of the Yucatan Peninsula.


https://twitter.com/AncientEpoch/status/2018831471533006920


There were several TV shows about the LIDAR finds. Nothing new or hidden from the public.
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Offline MeganC

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2026, 12:50:20 pm »
Did the Mayans have building permits and zoning approvals for those buildings?

They did. The problem is that they can't get approvals to rebuild due to environmental and government regulations.  :tongue2:
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2026, 06:43:34 pm »
LIDAR is amazing tech. They are finding all sorts of stuff everywhere.

Now... Look at all them people... Where's the AG to support them? Where's the roads to allow the ag? Shipping? Sea Ports? Surely all them folks weren't picking their food out of the forest and twisting bark for rope... :shrug:

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2026, 08:46:12 pm »
Now... Look at all them people... Where's the AG to support them? Where's the roads to allow the ag? Shipping? Sea Ports? Surely all them folks weren't picking their food out of the forest and twisting bark for rope... :shrug:
Either there were transport networks to bring in food from outlying areas, or the spaces between the structures, or terraces on them were utilized to grow food (or a bit of both).
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2026, 11:09:02 pm »
Either there were transport networks to bring in food from outlying areas, or the spaces between the structures, or terraces on them were utilized to grow food (or a bit of both).


Tens of thousands of buildings in a single swath - That alone is a hundred thousand people. Many children and multi-generational dwellings, as these things go... Assuming adjoining LIDAR sweeps would have the same results - however many sweeps beyond the adjoining...

That much population density definitely requires supply (it is too big for the land it is on to feed it)... Large acreages of farms must surround it... And those farms require two things that should be evident... Roads and water.

Roads are just as easily apparent as foundations are - Just the compression from use does not easily go away, not to mention gravel or corduroy leaving evidences. And while ditch irrigation to feed fields may not survive, canal-ways and feeder systems should be evident. Likewise sewage facilities. You just don't get that big without these things.

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2026, 11:33:20 pm »
Tens of thousands of buildings in a single swath - That alone is a hundred thousand people. Many children and multi-generational dwellings, as these things go... Assuming adjoining LIDAR sweeps would have the same results - however many sweeps beyond the adjoining...

That much population density definitely requires supply (it is too big for the land it is on to feed it)... Large acreages of farms must surround it... And those farms require two things that should be evident... Roads and water.

Roads are just as easily apparent as foundations are - Just the compression from use does not easily go away, not to mention gravel or corduroy leaving evidences. And while ditch irrigation to feed fields may not survive, canal-ways and feeder systems should be evident. Likewise sewage facilities. You just don't get that big without these things.
Well, you can get that big, you just won't stay that big.

We don't know that all those buildings were occupied, either. SOme may have been warehouses, temples, government structures...It's hard to say without boots on the ground and trowels in it.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2026, 11:34:51 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2026, 01:32:30 pm »
Well, you can get that big, you just won't stay that big.

We don't know that all those buildings were occupied, either. Some may have been warehouses, temples, government structures...It's hard to say without boots on the ground and trowels in it.

Especially after your population contracts European diseases against which they had no immunity.  Early Spanish records say they passed endless villages and cites along their journey up the Amazon. Two decades later, no villages or cities or people were seen on the same river route.

Yes they were all occupied some point. Else why would any one build?
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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2026, 11:31:06 pm »
Especially after your population contracts European diseases against which they had no immunity.  Early Spanish records say they passed endless villages and cites along their journey up the Amazon. Two decades later, no villages or cities or people were seen on the same river route.

Yes they were all occupied some point. Else why would any one build?
Large populations require storage, markets, etc. How many buildings are actually occupied outside of work hours today?
Why would extensive civilizations be any different?
Places of worship--not habitation.
Markets--not habitation.
Warehouses--not habitation.
Government buildings--not habitation.
Libraries and centers of learning--again, not habitation.

So some percentage of the structures involved will not be habitation space.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2026, 06:04:04 pm »
Buildings that people did not live in were used for various things, so they were all occupied in some way at some point, just not lived in.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2026, 06:19:31 pm »
Buildings that people did not live in were used for various things, so they were all occupied in some way at some point, just not lived in.
Technically correct, but misleading. For the purposes of figuring out the population of a city or settlement, you can't deal with every building as if it was residential.  Often the largest edifices are not occupied as residences, but are government or sports or religious complexes, and that's a different dynamic.

We have manufacturing complexes that rank in the millions of square feet (Gigafactory, Texas, 10 million ft^2), office buildings that do as well (Pentagon 6.6 million), but they are not family residences.
There are no residential buildings on the Mall in Washington DC (population zero), for example, yet there are 17 major buildings present.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2026, 06:29:23 pm »
Technically correct, but misleading. For the purposes of figuring out the population of a city or settlement, you can't deal with every building as if it was residential.  Often the largest edifices are not occupied as residences, but are government or sports or religious complexes, and that's a different dynamic.


That's technically correct too. But it still remains that the services are there to support a population. Housing will always vastly outnumber religious, governmental, or business systems. There is a statistical number for that, though I don't remember it anymore.

Even if that number knocks off 30% it is STILL reasonable to claim that the LIDAR sweeps on either side of this one will have a similar density. No matter what you do, that's gonna be a butt-ton of people.

That's gonna require networks to sustain. It has to.

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2026, 01:08:14 am »
That's technically correct too. But it still remains that the services are there to support a population. Housing will always vastly outnumber religious, governmental, or business systems. There is a statistical number for that, though I don't remember it anymore.

Even if that number knocks off 30% it is STILL reasonable to claim that the LIDAR sweeps on either side of this one will have a similar density. No matter what you do, that's gonna be a butt-ton of people.

That's gonna require networks to sustain. It has to.
My guess is that those networks were not evident at the scale of the LIDAR scans, or simply not in the surveyed areas. Romans built great roads, and parts of those survive today. Their engineers built aqueducts that still carry water, and their mastery of concrete by accident or design still has eluded modern builders until recently. Incredible engineering and execution.

But the quality and durability of a road is commonly a factor of available materials, and those may not have been such that the roadbeds would have survived being uprooted by jungle and ordinary erosion. Canal systems, much like flumes used to carry water to mines in the drier parts of the American West, may or may not have survived.

The only way to know is to get there and dig, but I'd want more thorough and comprehensive scans of the area with the highest resolution available first, just to pick and choose sites.

Keep in mind that we just don't know what wiped these people out, and that is a mystery that itches to be solved, despite blaming European Pathogens for the reduction in numbers of the native populations. (In some cases, in North America, correctly so, whether by accident or design). In the same vein, plant pathogens affecting specialized crops or trees that yield food could collapse a society, too, as vital food sources die off.

Keep in mind that the workers cities for building the Egyptian pyramids are only now being uncovered, as Archaeology has reached the tipping point from treasure hunting to understanding the dynamics of ancient societies (and what led to their fall), and the agricultural support mechanisms for large populations may not be evident.

How much of their agriculture was tree based and animal husbandry, we don't know (they didn't have our food pyramid and a bias toward cereal grains, as far as we know), and vertical (tree based) agriculture might produce more food in a smaller space, although preservation (drying, fermentation, packing in honey?) might be problematical. Nuts would have fewer problems. And all of that depends on the climate at the time of occupation, which may have been considerably different from today.
What may or may not have been orchards organized as we would do, would become disorganized over a few hundred years in the wild, with trees seeding their own successors to the point that in a few unmaintained generations the distribution would become more chaotic and not give the appearance of being rooted (pun intended) in human endeavour.
Only botanical surveys for food producing plant distributions might answer that. Building materials might have been cultivated as well, but while LIDAR may provide evidence of habitation (not necessarily simultaneous, just extensive) it can't answer the questions of food production--it sees through the very vegetation that would need to be studied, both living and any seed or pollen remnants from the past.

I don't think those agricultural ideas are new, just rediscovered.
As for sweeps adjacent to the current data having the same distribution of structures, maybe not. In the American West, for instance, some north to south or east to west sweeps would disclose centers of high populations, (Say, along I -94) but a sweep north or south of a sweep of I-94 would yield relatively little in habitation evidence, those being agricultural areas that support (in part) the communities along that thoroughfare. Spectacular results are more likely to yield the sort of funding that can lead to more research; boring (for many) images of what were huge garden plots just don't prod the imagination the same way.
One thing for certain, the scans raise more questions than they answer.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2026, 01:17:33 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2026, 10:42:13 am »
Technically correct, but misleading. For the purposes of figuring out the population of a city or settlement, you can't deal with every building as if it was residential.

But it takes a certain population number to build large stone buildings, using just hand tools and simple human/animal powered machines. Therefor the complexity, materials and size lead to population conclusions.

Further, even buildings that obviously were used to live in cannot be a reliable estimate of population when there are no records of how many people lived in each building. Was it a single family of 4? 16? Or multiple families? One can only guess and guess are all you got.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2026, 07:08:47 pm »
My guess is that those networks were not evident at the scale of the LIDAR scans, or simply not in the surveyed areas. Romans built great roads, and parts of those survive today. Their engineers built aqueducts that still carry water, and their mastery of concrete by accident or design still has eluded modern builders until recently. Incredible engineering and execution.


Right - But the same could be said about the 'Mayan' ... Their waterways are still functional too. A different form of engineering, closer to the earth, I think, but more than adequate and qualified. Exceptional.

Quote
But the quality and durability of a road is commonly a factor of available materials, and those may not have been such that the roadbeds would have survived being uprooted by jungle and ordinary erosion. Canal systems, much like flumes used to carry water to mines in the drier parts of the American West, may or may not have survived.


Right. but flumes won't carry heavy water. And these people (supposedly) knew how to work stone - One would expect heavy stone head gates - At least at the river's edge - and large canal works. I know that field irrigation may not last, but the primary and secondary canal-ways that would deliver the water to many fields would certainly be there.

Quote
How much of their agriculture was tree based and animal husbandry, we don't know (they didn't have our food pyramid and a bias toward cereal grains, as far as we know), and vertical (tree based) agriculture might produce more food in a smaller space, although preservation (drying, fermentation, packing in honey?) might be problematical. Nuts would have fewer problems. And all of that depends on the climate at the time of occupation, which may have been considerably different from today.
What may or may not have been orchards organized as we would do, would become disorganized over a few hundred years in the wild, with trees seeding their own successors to the point that in a few unmaintained generations the distribution would become more chaotic and not give the appearance of being rooted (pun intended) in human endeavour.


Well, sorta. Pretty much everybody makes bread. And farming is much the same wherever you go, as is animal husbandry. And while the qualities of that might be different, with different effects upon the land (bison vs goat), that basics remain the same - food, water, and containment to keep em together, and keep predators away...

Now... A shepherd don't need no fences. And a cowboy sure as hell don't need no fences. But you are no longer talking bout a simple agrarian system when you have such a heavy population density.

That's thousands of goats per day, and tens of thousands of loaves of bread. Every day. Local farms would be there, but that's more than they can do... that means more, shipped in. that is roads or canals, take your pick.

That's sorta what I am getting at - The population density that is apparent in the scan, demands heavy shipping and modern-ish agrarianism in order to exist at that density.

Quote
Only botanical surveys for food producing plant distributions might answer that. Building materials might have been cultivated as well, but while LIDAR may provide evidence of habitation (not necessarily simultaneous, just extensive) it can't answer the questions of food production--it sees through the very vegetation that would need to be studied, both living and any seed or pollen remnants from the past.


Right - But LIDAR can see geography, and the remnant of roads and canals should be quite evident - there are some remnants of pathways that are evident in part. But no roads. no canals. It's a stumper.

Quote
I don't think those agricultural ideas are new, just rediscovered.
As for sweeps adjacent to the current data having the same distribution of structures, maybe not. In the American West, for instance, some north to south or east to west sweeps would disclose centers of high populations, (Say, along I -94) but a sweep north or south of a sweep of I-94 would yield relatively little in habitation evidence, those being agricultural areas that support (in part) the communities along that thoroughfare. Spectacular results are more likely to yield the sort of funding that can lead to more research; boring (for many) images of what were huge garden plots just don't prod the imagination the same way.
One thing for certain, the scans raise more questions than they answer.

Right. Your example backs into what I am putting down... The West is a good example.

Your example assumes I94... But I94 is the reason those towns are there. I94 is why other towns faded away. The establishment of I94 changed the picture.

Prior to the interstate, I think you would find townships established around the railroad and river systems. Before that, primarily river system (at least for industry)

Those patterns should be self evident in this case too. And they are not. That is weird.

Imagine if you would a pre-industrial city the size of 1880 Chicago. Say 500k.

Now, that still ain't fair, because they had rail. But just say. Imagine the pile of hay needed to keep that place going. The grain that they had to ship in... Just for the horses to pull the wagons and carts around... We ain't even talking people yet.  Imagine the monstrous pile of shit that had to be hauled away. Every day. That requires roads for that alone. Gallons of water in the millions. How does that get there? It's crazy to think about. Not to mention feeding and clothing all the citizens. The quantities are astronomical without diesel.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2026, 07:10:33 pm by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2026, 07:24:16 pm »
But it takes a certain population number to build large stone buildings, using just hand tools and simple human/animal powered machines. Therefor the complexity, materials and size lead to population conclusions.


That's right. That might not always be right - The Egyptians were talked about upthread - Using the pyramids as an instance might be unfair - Temporary towns were set up for their construction. Folks and supplies were shipped in.

But this ain't like that - It ain't a 'site'. This is where folks lived.

Quote
Further, even buildings that obviously were used to live in cannot be a reliable estimate of population when there are no records of how many people lived in each building. Was it a single family of 4? 16? Or multiple families? One can only guess and guess are all you got.

Sorta. There are numbers for that. Statistical analysis.

For instance, the Bible says that the Exodus had 600,000 men of age. That is men of fighting age. One can extrapolate a total number, including women, elderly, and children, from that number - And it is a substantial difference.

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Re: 10'000 Mayan Ruins
« Reply #23 on: Today at 07:10:08 am »
That's right. That might not always be right - The Egyptians were talked about upthread - Using the pyramids as an instance might be unfair - Temporary towns were set up for their construction. Folks and supplies were shipped in.

But this ain't like that - It ain't a 'site'. This is where folks lived.

Sorta. There are numbers for that. Statistical analysis.

For instance, the Bible says that the Exodus had 600,000 men of age. That is men of fighting age. One can extrapolate a total number, including women, elderly, and children, from that number - And it is a substantial difference.

Statistics can be made to show absolutely anything desired from the number analysis. Statistics are basically a guesstimate at best, and not to be relied on for real world realities; especially from sources that have undergone multiple language transitions and translations like the Bible.

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