Grokking Freedom

[Luis Gonzalez]

On Gonzo’s Pond: Grokking Freedom
By Luis Gonzalez · A reflective trilogy from Gonzo’s Pond

“To grok is to understand so completely that you become one with what you know.” — Robert A. Heinlein

Part I — Grokking Freedom

The pond woke before I did. A thin fog hovered over its surface, breathing slowly, as if the earth itself were trying to remember something. The water held its mirror still — no judgment, no hesitation — just reflection.

I thought of Charlie Kirk and Valentine Michael Smith again, their names drifting through my mind like lily pads that never touch. One real, one imagined, both stirring the same unsettled waters of belief.

Heinlein’s Martian word comes to me: grok.
To grok is not to think, but to become the thing known — to know water by being water, to know love by dissolving in it.
Smith grokked humanity through its pain and contradictions, learning that freedom was not permission but presence.
And maybe Kirk, in his own combustible way, grokked something too — the dangerous beauty of freedom itself.

https://boilingfrogs.wordpress.com/2025/11/05/the-gonzos-pond-cycle-grokking-freedom/

[Sighlass]

For consideration, some special big moon is on for Wednesday night... ought to make a pond reflection to contemplate a few things.

[Cyber Liberty]

 

[Bigun]

I had forgotten how good you are with a keyboard @Luis Gonzalez 

[Luis Gonzalez]

Thanks old friend.

[roamer_1]

Of course I liked the interplay with the natural world. 

But i would disabuse you of the interchangeable use of freedom and liberty.

Liberty has responsibilities.
Freedom has consequences.

I learned long ago I could never be free. My teens and twenties taught me that. No, liberty is the thing. The real thing. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

Of course I liked the interplay with the natural world. 

But i would disabuse you of the interchangeable use of freedom and liberty.

Liberty has responsibilities.
Freedom has consequences.

I learned long ago I could never be free. My teens and twenties taught me that. No, liberty is the thing. The real thing. 

I need not be disabused of anything my friend, and I'll stand by every word I wrote.

Freedom refers to the ability to act, think, or speak without external restraint or interference, where Liberty refers to freedom that is recognized and protected by society or law.

In our world right now the Liberty (action recognized and protected by law) to Speak and act in accordance to deeply held beliefs are being suppressed by the laws and institutions that define what "Liberty" amounts to. Jews in Europe are being arrested in the streets for being "too publicly Jewish". Liberty, with those artificial boundaries imposed by they who write and enforce laws, is what is lost first in any society.

In Cuba we lost all Liberties, but retained the Freedom to make the decision to jump into the ocean tied to some inner tubes, unconcerned and irrespective of the possible consequences.

Freedom is the power to choose. Liberty is the condition that allows those choices to exist within a just order, where that "just order" is defined by others.

• “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” (Declaration of Independence) — liberty as a structured right.
• “Freedom of speech, freedom of religion” (Bill of Rights) — freedom as specific, personal expressions of autonomy.

You know...

"They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!"

[roamer_1]

I need not be disabused of anything my friend, and I'll stand by every word I wrote.

Freedom refers to the ability to act, think, or speak without external restraint or interference, where Liberty refers to freedom that is recognized and protected by society or law.

In our world right now the Liberty (action recognized and protected by law) to Speak and act in accordance to deeply held beliefs are being suppressed by the laws and institutions that define what "Liberty" amounts to. Jews in Europe are being arrested in the streets for being "too publicly Jewish". Liberty, with those artificial boundaries imposed by they who write and enforce laws, is what is lost first in any society.

In Cuba we lost all Liberties, but retained the Freedom to make the decision to jump into the ocean tied to some inner tubes, unconcerned and irrespective of the possible consequences.

Freedom is the power to choose. Liberty is the condition that allows those choices to exist within a just order, where that "just order" is defined by others.

• “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” (Declaration of Independence) — liberty as a structured right.
• “Freedom of speech, freedom of religion” (Bill of Rights) — freedom as specific, personal expressions of autonomy.

You know...

"They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!"

I will very amicably disagree.

If you leave your pond, and follow the gravel road to it's end, and then take the two track to it's end, around here, you'll run into the wilderness. Go spend a month or two up in there for your introspection.

Up in there you could be as free as is in reach. There may be other folks, but likely not. There might be law in the form of a FS warden or a F&G ranger... But if you stay well off the hiking trails (which is very easy), you'll have no governance at all.

There you might argue, you are free.

You ARE free of the governance of man. But the governance of Yah, and the natural law still applies.

You are free to sit on your butt in the snow instead of collecting firewood.
But if you do, you will die.

You are free to forego building a shelter.
But if you do, you'll die.

You can walk right up and pet a griz.
But if you do, you will die.

You can choose not to lay traps and forage
But then, you'll go hungry.

You can even refuse to bathe in an icy mountain stream...
But the rashes will teach you something.

Even there, among soaring peaks, there is no freedom without responsibilities...

THAT is liberty. The responsibilities that create what you would call freedom. When you no longer mind those chores, what you call freedom will fly away.

Any government of Man merely mimics the truth of it.
The Author of Liberty resides in a higher court.

It is what it is.

Liberty has responsibilities.
Freedom has consequences.

 

[Bigun]

FWIW, I think you are both right. @roamer_1 @Luis Gonzalez

Individual liberty and personal responsibility are inextricably linked. You simply cannot have one without the other.

[libertybele]

Thank you @Luis Gonzalez  - beautifully written.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I will very amicably disagree.

~~~

There you might argue, you are free.

You ARE free of the governance of man.

Your disagreement would make for a blog entry. You should write it.

Liberty, as defined in the Federalist Papers is a collective good, secured by institutions that channel and restrain both governmental and popular power. Basically Bastiat’s opening arguments in The Law.

Freedom is just that. Unrestrained by outside interference.

PS. Of course you have the freedom to starve yourself, but that’d be pretty dumb.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Thank you @Luis Gonzalez  - beautifully written.

Thank you!

[Cyber Liberty]

Your disagreement would make for a blog entry. You should write it.

Liberty, as defined in the Federalist Papers is a collective good, secured by institutions that channel and restrain both governmental and popular power. Basically Bastiat’s opening arguments in The Law.

Freedom is just that. Unrestrained by outside interference.

PS. Of course you have the freedom to starve yourself, but that’d be pretty dumb.

@roamer_1 is one of my best friends on TBR, for a reason.  You could talk with him across a dining room table for hours and come away with many good ideas!

[Luis Gonzalez]

FWIW, I think you are both right. @roamer_1 @Luis Gonzalez

Individual liberty and personal responsibility are inextricably linked. You simply cannot have one without the other.

You’re right of course. Liberty is defined by the people agreeing to set guidelines, restrictions and consequences for the violation of those valued principles of life, property, the pursuit of happiness, and others. Liberty sets in place the communal right to self-defense.

Love Bastiat.

[Bigun]

You’re right of course. Liberty is defined by the people agreeing to set guidelines, restrictions and consequences for the violation of those valued principles of life, property, the pursuit of happiness, and others. Liberty sets in place the communal right to self-defense.

Love Bastiat.

Yep! He had it figured out long ago.


"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."

“Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.”

Frederic Bastiat

[Cyber Liberty]

You’re right of course. Liberty is defined by the people agreeing to set guidelines, restrictions and consequences for the violation of those valued principles of life, property, the pursuit of happiness, and others. Liberty sets in place the communal right to self-defense.

Love Bastiat.

I do too.  Thanks for turning me on to him!

[roamer_1]

FWIW, I think you are both right. @roamer_1 @Luis Gonzalez

Individual liberty and personal responsibility are inextricably linked. You simply cannot have one without the other.

You're right in that @Bigun , but it is an important thing to reinforce, Especially in the face of the 'free sh*t' army'. Free ain't free. There is a cost.

Now, many would paint that cost in blood - And that ain't wrong, as many here can personally attest. I ain't touching that. I respect it, and live in the shadow of those that paid that price.

But there is an ongoing duty, after that horrible price was paid. And that duty is to make sure that price doesn't have to be paid again.

That takes work. That's men taking on the responsibility and individualism that comes with liberty - individualism because it must be inherent in every man. It is in the aggregate of that individual response toward being independent that the work of a state or nation toward liberty is done.

You come from big country too, so I know you understand what I am putting down.

And it is in that, that the distinction must be made.

Freedom is never free. Liberty is the thing.

Perhaps I am too Burkean in my view, but Yah has never promised freedom in this creation. He DID promise liberty, if we can keep it between the navigational buoys.

That's where the core of it lies, not in this or any other government, till Shiloh com.

[Bigun]

You're right in that @Bigun , but it is an important thing to reinforce, Especially in the face of the 'free sh*t' army'. Free ain't free. There is a cost.

Now, many would paint that cost in blood - And that ain't wrong, as many here can personally attest. I ain't touching that. I respect it, and live in the shadow of those that paid that price.

But there is an ongoing duty, after that horrible price was paid. And that duty is to make sure that price doesn't have to be paid again.

That takes work. That's men taking on the responsibility and individualism that comes with liberty - individualism because it must be inherent in every man. It is in the aggregate of that individual response toward being independent that the work of a state or nation toward liberty is done.

You come from big country too, so I know you understand what I am putting down.

And it is in that, that the distinction must be made.

Freedom is never free. Liberty is the thing.

Perhaps I am too Burkean in my view, but Yah has never promised freedom in this creation. He DID promise liberty, if we can keep it between the navigational buoys.

That's where the core of it lies, not in this or any other government, till Shiloh com.

The laws of nature are laws the same as the laws of physics and those laws are immutable. They cannot and will not be violated no matter how hard we try. The piper is going to be paid one way or another. @roamer_1 

...You are free to sit on your butt in the snow instead of collecting firewood.
But if you do, you will die.

You are free to forego building a shelter.
But if you do, you'll die.

You can walk right up and pet a griz.
But if you do, you will die. ...

 

[roamer_1]

Your disagreement would make for a blog entry. You should write it.

I just did. 

Liberty, as defined in the Federalist Papers is a collective good, secured by institutions that channel and restrain both governmental and popular power. Basically Bastiat’s opening arguments in The Law.

Right. Mere mimicry of something far more ancient. And from an Higher court. I am more interested in what Yah defined as Liberty. That is the root,'endowed by our Creator'.

Freedom is just that. Unrestrained by outside interference.

There is always outside interference. Even removing the governments of Man, even then you are not free.

In the prophetic words of Bob Dylan, 'You've got to Serve Somebody'.

If you play that service just right, that's where you will find liberty. Never freedom. I think that may define the original sin.

Pardon me if I am waxxing philosofickle. I so very much miss these deep conversations hereon. 

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1 is one of my best friends on TBR, for a reason.  You could talk with him across a dining room table for hours and come away with many good ideas!

You're gonna make me blush. 

And this ain't nothin, btw... Turn me loose with some beers by a camp fire, or sweet tea on the porch, and Katie bar the door! (don't let him back in here or he'll never shut up!  )