Author Topic: Is Trump’s Call For Putting Battleships Back In The Navy’s Fleet Even Feasible?  (Read 2071 times)

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Online rangerrebew

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Is Trump’s Call For Putting Battleships Back In The Navy’s Fleet Even Feasible?
Trump wants battleships back in the Navy's inventory, and that may be far-fetched, but his remarks do highlight real deliberations around the future of surface combatants.
Joseph Trevithick, Tyler Rogoway, Howard Altman

Updated Oct 1, 2025 6:21 PM EDT
 

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President Donald Trump says he has been seriously talking with Navy Secretary John Phelan about adding “battleships” with gun-centric armament and heavily armored hulls back into America’s naval force structure. There are immediate questions about the feasibility and practicality of the Navy fielding any sort of battleship, a type of vessel the service has not had in its active inventory since 1992. At the same time, Trump’s comments do touch on real questions about the future of naval guns for major surface warships, especially amid ongoing work globally on railguns, and the potential value of added armor to respond to threats, including cruise missiles and drones.

Trump talked about the prospect of a new battleship for the Navy at an unprecedented all-hands meeting of top U.S. military officers at the Marine Corps’ base in Quantico, Virginia, yesterday. War Secretary Pete Hegseth had called for the gathering and had addressed the attendees first.
 
“I think we should maybe start thinking about battleships,” Trump said, adding that he had spoken to Secretary Phelan on the matter. “Some people would say, ‘No, that’s old technology.’ I don’t know. I don’t think it’s old technology when you look at those guns.”

“It’s something we’re actually considering, the concept of battleship, nice, six-inch side, solid steel. Not aluminum, aluminum that melts. If it looks at a missile coming at it, [it] starts melting as the missile’s about two miles away,” he continued. “Now those ships, they don’t make them that way anymore, but you look at it, your Secretary [Phelan] likes it, and I’m sort of open to it. And bullets are a lot less expensive than missiles.”

“It’s something we’re seriously considering,” he reiterated.

https://www.twz.com/sea/is-trumps-call-for-new-battleships-even-feasible
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Online rangerrebew

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It seems to me, every time Trump wants to generate lots of discussion about a topic, he comes up with outlandish plan sure to roil democrats, the MSM, and rinos and he gets all he needs.  As an example, he may not even be interested in battleships, but raising the possibility may lead to something he does want to have discussions about like democrats standing in the way of some project he does want.
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Online Timber Rattler

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Stupid idea in the age of drones and missiles.  So who's going to run and maintain those ship's 1940s' vintage engines and aim and fire those big 16-inch guns?  Those sailors retired and/or died a long time ago.

And without any ammo?

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23202/do-you-know-what-to-do-with-15000-battleship-shells/
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Offline catfish1957

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I thought with modern technology and drones, that floating hardware like this was less needed. 
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Online DefiantMassRINO

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They tried this in the 1980s/1990s with the USS New Jersey.  Dreadnoughts are antiquated technology and large combustible targets.  Money is better spent on items that will not be used by the enemy for target practice.
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They tried this in the 1980s/1990s with the USS New Jersey.  Dreadnoughts are antiquated technology and large combustible targets.  Money is better spent on items that will not be used by the enemy for target practice.

It also takes between 1,000 and 1,500 sailors and officers to operate those battlewagons.

True story:  When the mothballed New Jersey was re-activated in 1968 for the Vietnam War, it's initial shore bombardment was poorly conducted because the younger sailors had no idea how to properly aim, load, and operate the big guns.  So the Navy had to hire a bunch of World War II gunnery veterans to come aboard and handle the gunnery and ordnance.  She was quickly decommissioned again the following year because of that failure.

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Offline The_Reader_David

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Can someone persuade Trump to actually consult relevant experts before proposing things?  I think whoever it is will have to pretend to believe that Trump really is always the smartest person in the room, and take the tack that being the smartest person in the room doesn't mean having the most expertise in every possible domain relevant to the running of the executive branch or proposals for legislation.
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Offline jafo2010

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World War II proved decisively that battleships were obsolete.  They serve ZERO PURPOSE as a war making asset.  ZERO!!!

They make nice museums, and that is where they should remain.  ANd constructing a new battleship, an all new design would be cost prohibitive and provide an asset with very limited combat function.  It would be the quintesential example of squandering taxpayer dollars.  But then again, government pukes with military fat *sses may just give Trump what he wants.  It is spending money, and they have proven to be good at that, particularly the wasting it along the way.

We need to continue to develop our ability to generate hundreds of thousands of drones, air drones, robotic ground drones that kill with little to no human intervention.  We need to get to the Cyberdyne level of machines(as in the movie Terminator series) designed to kill mankind, without losing control of the machines.  That is the next level of war making.

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I've had this stupid discussion with other people in the past so bear with me and anyone responding to me with idiocy? You've been warned that I will have zero tolerance for you.  tipping hat!!

"Trump talked about the prospect of a new battleship for the Navy"

NEW

So like how the US Navy has modern frigates and destroyers in 2025 the Navy can also have modern battleships.

Maybe they would have some big guns? Maybe they'll just have missiles. Maybe they'd be nuclear powered?

In any case the proposal is for a new capital ship. Not a new construction of a 1940's ship with crank telephones, optical range finders, steam engines, and etc.

Naval weapons in this day and age are designed to destroy the lightly armored ships that prevail these days.

A modern battleship with six-inch modern armor and modern defenses would be a force multiplier. It would also brush off most of the modern weaponry in use now. Most important is it could be designed to withstand drone attacks.  :yowsa:

It is an idea worth considering.
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I've had this stupid discussion with other people in the past so bear with me and anyone responding to me with idiocy? You've been warned that I will have zero tolerance for you.  tipping hat!!

"Trump talked about the prospect of a new battleship for the Navy"

NEW

So like how the US Navy has modern frigates and destroyers in 2025 the Navy can also have modern battleships.

Maybe they would have some big guns? Maybe they'll just have missiles. Maybe they'd be nuclear powered?

In any case the proposal is for a new capital ship. Not a new construction of a 1940's ship with crank telephones, optical range finders, steam engines, and etc.

Naval weapons in this day and age are designed to destroy the lightly armored ships that prevail these days.

A modern battleship with six-inch modern armor and modern defenses would be a force multiplier. It would also brush off most of the modern weaponry in use now. Most important is it could be designed to withstand drone attacks.  :yowsa:

It is an idea worth considering.

 888high58888

Offline MeganC

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An idea of what a modern, stealthy battleship could look like...

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Online Timber Rattler

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An idea of what a modern, stealthy battleship could look like...

Here's the problem though, Megan.  The U.S. no longer has the industrial base nor the shipbuilding capacity to build new modernized battleships.  Bethlehem Steel, which manufactured the heavy armor, closed in 2003 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem_Steel) and the Washington Naval Gun Factory (https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nmusn/explore/photography/washington-navy-yard/manufacturing/wwii-1962.html) where the big guns were made, closed in 1962.  There's literally nobody left who can build new battleships much less operate and maintain them.

And like I posted above, all 16,000 16-inch shells have been destroyed by the Army.  So there's no more ammo for them either.  And the Scranton ordnance works is already overloaded with building 155mm shells for the U.S. Army (and Ukraine).  The defense drawdfowns of the 1990s are now biting us squarely on the butt.

See also:  https://nationalsecurityjournal.org/the-great-u-s-navy-battleship-comeback-will-never-happen/
« Last Edit: October 02, 2025, 07:25:25 pm by Timber Rattler »
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I've had this stupid discussion with other people in the past so bear with me and anyone responding to me with idiocy? You've been warned that I will have zero tolerance for you.  tipping hat!!

"Trump talked about the prospect of a new battleship for the Navy"

NEW

So like how the US Navy has modern frigates and destroyers in 2025 the Navy can also have modern battleships.

Maybe they would have some big guns? Maybe they'll just have missiles. Maybe they'd be nuclear powered?

In any case the proposal is for a new capital ship. Not a new construction of a 1940's ship with crank telephones, optical range finders, steam engines, and etc.

Naval weapons in this day and age are designed to destroy the lightly armored ships that prevail these days.

A modern battleship with six-inch modern armor and modern defenses would be a force multiplier. It would also brush off most of the modern weaponry in use now. Most important is it could be designed to withstand drone attacks.  :yowsa:

It is an idea worth considering.
Thank you. I don't know why people skip over key words and run straight to the movies (Battleship).

Combat survivability just might still be relevant, and that comes with armor, decks that can take a hit, and defensive systems that can interdict attacking forces, manned or otherwise. Automation and modern systems would reduce crew needs, and its possible to cut down on other problems that were present with WWII tech.
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Offline the OlLine Rebel

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An idea of what a modern, stealthy battleship could look like...

Modern early ironclad?  The Virginia?

Not a very intimidating sight.  I'd stick with ship bristling with guns from every angle.  (And that's where the battleship could serve a good purpose, esp. litoral - intimidating brute force look.)
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Modern early ironclad?  The Virginia?

Not a very intimidating sight.  I'd stick with ship bristling with guns from every angle.  (And that's where the battleship could serve a good purpose, esp. litoral - intimidating brute force look.)
Bristling with guns is nice (especially for shooting down incoming threats), but a lot of combat nowadays isn't the slugfest at Hampton Roads, rather over the horizon deliveries of ordnance. Being well enough armored to withstand lesser threats (most drones) would be nice to wed with stealth, and launching missiles is likely the most effective long distance offense against capital ships.

A gunboat class of small ships capable of using 'dumb' munitions from railguns, (perhaps with small nuclear power plants), might have the shallow draft needed for littoral operations and couple it with a punch. They would have to be defended, passively (armor) or actively (Phalanx type systems) against drones, missiles, and shore based threats.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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With the failure of the Zumwalt Class Destroyers bringing back the 4 Iowa class BB's wouldn't be a bad idea.


The would be the perfect platform size wise and electrical generation wise to be a platform to launch and operate drones from...replace two of the 16"-gun turrets with either the hypervelocity turrets they took off the Zumwalt or replace them with rail guns.

There's enough gunners mates who were on the ships up through the Gulf War that could be brought in as instructor trainers to teach a new generation how to operate those Mark 7 guns.


They were already equipped with Tomahawk and Harpoon missile launchers. 


The Marines haven't had effective artillery support for beach landings since they retired the BB's.  The Clinton era DoD thought 5" guns could do it...turns out they can't.


If we can brag about flying B-52's until they're 100 and continue to upgrade their electronics and their engines...there's no reason the same philosophy can't be applied to the four battleships we have wasting away as museum ships.

They project power just as much as any aircraft carries does. 
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Offline BobfromWB

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I've had this stupid discussion with other people in the past so bear with me and anyone responding to me with idiocy? You've been warned that I will have zero tolerance for you.

"Trump talked about the prospect of a new battleship for the Navy"

NEW

So like how the US Navy has modern frigates and destroyers in 2025 the Navy can also have modern battleships.

Maybe they would have some big guns? Maybe they'll just have missiles. Maybe they'd be nuclear powered?

In any case the proposal is for a new capital ship. Not a new construction of a 1940's ship with crank telephones, optical range finders, steam engines, and etc.

Naval weapons in this day and age are designed to destroy the lightly armored ships that prevail these days.

A modern battleship with six-inch modern armor and modern defenses would be a force multiplier. It would also brush off most of the modern weaponry in use now. Most important is it could be designed to withstand drone attacks.
It is an idea worth considering.

If only US steel makers still knew how to make 13" hardened armored plate. Which knowledge was lost long ago.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2025, 10:54:31 am by BobfromWB »
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If only US steel makers still knew how to make 13" hardened armored plate. Which knowledge was lost long ago.

Exactly, and the steel mills to manufacture it.


Actually, the U.S. Navy doesn't need new battleships but more cruisers and destroyers and submarines.  Remember that the original British empire of the 18th and 19th century was held together by the Royal Navy, which was mostly comprised of fast moving, less expensive, 74-gun, 3rd Rate Ships of the Line.  The Brits had hundreds of them at their peak, and they could be used to wave the flag anywhere in the world while projecting force when necessary.  Putting all the eggs in one basket, like we do with our CVs now, is a recipe for disaster if a general war with the ChiComs ever breaks out.
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Trump needs to delegate this sort of stuff.

Offline MeganC

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Here's the problem though, Megan.  The U.S. no longer has the industrial base nor the shipbuilding capacity to build new modernized battleships.  Bethlehem Steel, which manufactured the heavy armor, closed in 2003 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem_Steel) and the Washington Naval Gun Factory (https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/museums/nmusn/explore/photography/washington-navy-yard/manufacturing/wwii-1962.html) where the big guns were made, closed in 1962.  There's literally nobody left who can build new battleships much less operate and maintain them.

And like I posted above, all 16,000 16-inch shells have been destroyed by the Army.  So there's no more ammo for them either.  And the Scranton ordnance works is already overloaded with building 155mm shells for the U.S. Army (and Ukraine).  The defense drawdfowns of the 1990s are now biting us squarely on the butt.

See also:  https://nationalsecurityjournal.org/the-great-u-s-navy-battleship-comeback-will-never-happen/

Why the hell are you stuck on this notion that a modern battleship must look like an eighty year old Iowa class? You're being ridiculous.

Plus any steel mill that produces high carbon steel for skyscrapers can easily produce armor for ships. And if we need them then we can build the steel mills we need.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2025, 03:59:29 pm by MeganC »
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Offline MeganC

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Trump needs to delegate this sort of stuff.

He will. But first he has to get the discussion started.
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Offline MeganC

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The knowledge wasn't lost, it was applied elsewhere.

from r/metalworking

https://www.reddit.com/r/metalworking/comments/e9qf01/say_hello_to_rhe_biggest_fucking_beam_ive_ever/

from r/metalworking

https://www.reddit.com/r/metalworking/comments/e9qf01/say_hello_to_rhe_biggest_fucking_beam_ive_ever/
Not the biggest beam I've seen. I fitted much taller (in the web) structural steel for coal fired Power plants back in the '70s. While they were lighter (36X360 as opposed to 14X800) they were bigger.

But you are right. We have the information somewhere on how to formulate and produce steel for armoring ships. It is a matter of (re)building the mills to do so, something that from the ground up, could be made more efficient, more 'environmentally friendly', and have better quality control than the old mills.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline BobfromWB

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But you are right. We have the information somewhere on how to formulate and produce steel for armoring ships. It is a matter of (re)building the mills to do so, something that from the ground up, could be made more efficient, more 'environmentally friendly', and have better quality control than the old mills.

Even if the information exists somewhere in some forgotten archive, information does not automatically translate into the skill for workers to make it. Big thick beams are in a totally different class than hardened armor plate over a foot thick.

Thickness of a steel plate is easily overcome by modern weapons which is why MIA2 Abrams have depleted uranium over thick steel; armored plate is a different kettle of fish. Then there is the problem of joining the plates - another skill lost.

Its a very expensive problem to recreate what once was when the same money could go elsewhere: like into surface and subsurface drones to fight more modern war against China's vast Navy and combatant freighters [ freighters which are now serving as drone launch platforms harassing the US Navy ].


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Offline Smokin Joe

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Even if the information exists somewhere in some forgotten archive, information does not automatically translate into the skill for workers to make it. Big thick beams are in a totally different class than hardened armor plate over a foot thick.

Thickness of a steel plate is easily overcome by modern weapons which is why MIA2 Abrams have depleted uranium over thick steel; armored plate is a different kettle of fish. Then there is the problem of joining the plates - another skill lost.

Its a very expensive problem to recreate what once was when the same money could go elsewhere: like into surface and subsurface drones to fight more modern war against China's vast Navy and combatant freighters [ freighters which are now serving as drone launch platforms harassing the US Navy ].
If we have the will, anything is possible.

The stealth equations were from the '60s, translated in the '70s, and eventually led to the F-117 and beyond.
 I recall seeing the occasional flying wing out of Andrews AFB in my youth, and they were gone, but now they're back. Turns out with upgrades in engines, avionics, and materials, the concept has been revived.

Rediscovering old tech would be a better investment than producing thin skinned naval combatants that can't take a punch, because we just don't have enough hulls to fight a war of attrition.

The armored belt around the Iowa Class battleships was 12.1 inches; just over a foot, but enough progress has been made in layered armor that that also is likely not the only solution to armoring a ship.

As for joining those plates, well, that information is out there, too.
 
Skills can be learned and re-learned (which is why we write stuff down), or we'd still be chasing food with pointy sticks.

Apply the same principles used in more modern armor to naval vessels so they can at least take a few drone hits without being disabled--because if the Chinese (or anyone else) uses them effectively, those little kamikazes are going to come in in swarms numbering in the hundreds and some will get through, above, below, and at surface level.

Otherwise, save the excuses for the Gold Star Families.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2025, 07:29:55 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline BobfromWB

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The knowledge wasn't lost, it was applied elsewhere.

Those are just thick pieces of steel, not armor plate which is a totally different process.
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Offline BobfromWB

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that information is out there, too.
 

If it is, go find it as no one else can. All the people who made it, who joined the plates are dead, and the mills are gone; the equipment to make the plate, sold for scrap decades ago.

Like I said this is just a folly and not worth the effort or the time, when the time and resources are better used to make AI controlled surface and sub-surface drones - something the Navy is attempting, but instead of making cheap drones that can operate in swarms, they seem to be focusing on making a few big expensive drones.

Which is why we are not prepared for modern warfare - they focus on making big, expensive, low volume weapons, which when destroyed and used up, leave the cupboard bare.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

As for making thin-skinned vessels, even the Navy sees that as a dead end. The future is submarines and cheap AI drones.


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Offline Fishrrman

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Bob said:
"Which is why we are not prepared for modern warfare - they focus on making big, expensive, low volume weapons, which when destroyed and used up, leave the cupboard bare."

If that's the case, it sounds to me like the only solution for "modern warfare" against an enemy like China may be to go nuclear as quickly as possible and hope for the best...

(we're not going to beat them using conventional means...)

Offline Smokin Joe

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If it is, go find it as no one else can. All the people who made it, who joined the plates are dead, and the mills are gone; the equipment to make the plate, sold for scrap decades ago.

Like I said this is just a folly and not worth the effort or the time, when the time and resources are better used to make AI controlled surface and sub-surface drones - something the Navy is attempting, but instead of making cheap drones that can operate in swarms, they seem to be focusing on making a few big expensive drones.

Which is why we are not prepared for modern warfare - they focus on making big, expensive, low volume weapons, which when destroyed and used up, leave the cupboard bare.

Quantity has a quality all its own.

As for making thin-skinned vessels, even the Navy sees that as a dead end. The future is submarines and cheap AI drones.
Well, Bob, the only really elusive bit of metallurgy I am aware of is the legendary Damascus steel of the Middle ages. Efforts to recreate its legendary properties have been ongoing for decades. But, like the armor steels, there is a combination of chemical composition, tempering and work that make the metal what it is. Crystal size, orientation, dispersion are all related to mechanical processing and thermal treatment.

To find it you might have to dig through actual print materials not just do a mouse click. But even then, there is a lot of ongoing research being done on the properties of steel, much of it by bladesmiths, that might be adapted to larger projects; there is considerable interest in up-armoring vehicles, not just for military applications, and more modern developments are factored in with layered armor and anti-spall blankets for military and personal use.
If a web search can find this:
https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3305_0.pdf

Then it is likely the 'formulas' still exist for those armored belts, or with the actual ships, they could be sampled and reverse engineered.

As for mills, they would have to be built from scratch, most likely, and the people running them would be pushing buttons rather than pulling levers, not using 80 year old technology to produce the modern result.

Observing the use of shaped charges (RPG warheads) dropped from drones (or attached to them) in Ukraine, the question is of how to effectively armor against attacks using more modern warheads.

Because no matter how many drones you have, you have to deploy them from somewhere. The Chinese have islands they have augmented or flat-out built throughout the Spratleys which give them forward basing options. Their container ship fleet gives them mobile options, along with deniability right up to the time they start launching. Hostilities toward ostensibly merchant vessels short of open warfare will be frowned upon, and the load out on any (if not all) such vessels could have a military component sitting idle until called up. We don't have enough submarines to shadow them all.

I agree that drones will be (are) 'the next big thing' in warfare, and we have a ways to go to get up to speed. But having drones is only part of the equation; we have to get them to where they can be utilized effectively. If we are to effectively deploy even one-way drones with loiter time over target areas, we need a platform to deploy them from, in effective numbers, and if it isn't survivable, the drones will not matter.
We also need the sort of defense that will counter the enemy's drones, whatever form that takes.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2025, 04:43:11 am by Smokin Joe »
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Offline MeganC

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Modern early ironclad?  The Virginia?

Not a very intimidating sight.  I'd stick with ship bristling with guns from every angle.  (And that's where the battleship could serve a good purpose, esp. litoral - intimidating brute force look.)

I assume then you believe a B-17 would be better than a B-2? Should we build new Flying Fortresses "bristling with guns" or should we build aircraft and ships that can do their jobs and protect their crews?
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...or should we build aircraft and ships that can do their jobs and protect their crews?

Therein lies the problem...we can't anymore.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Therein lies the problem...we can't anymore.
Well, if we can't, we'd better figure out how.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline BobfromWB

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 ...  it sounds to me like the only solution for "modern warfare" against an enemy like China may be to go nuclear as quickly as possible and hope for the best... (we're not going to beat them using conventional means...)

And who told you that they are not beatable using conventional weapons? Do you know anything about the PLA other than what the billion dollar Chinese propaganda machine told you? Do you know anything about Chinese culture?

Do you know that PLA Rocket Forces use the rocket fuel to heat their tea? Do you know that China has not beaten anyone in any conflict since the Korean War [ where any 'victory' is very questionable ]? Do you know that any large scale troop loss will cause the abject collapse of the CCP as millions of people are made impoverished, destitute, and homeless when their sole support is killed in combat?

Do you know that the fancy weapons they proudly parade are usually constructed from plywood, plastic, and cardboard?

Do you know that a PLAN assignment to a submarine is largely a death sentence, so many have been lost?

Do you know that the Admiral of a fleet has to ask his political officer before any decision is taken and that decision must be OKed by the rest of the fleet's political officers and by Command in Beijing before any real action is taken?

It gets worse if I go on.
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Offline BobfromWB

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I assume then you believe a B-17 would be better than a B-2? Should we build new Flying Fortresses "bristling with guns" or should we build aircraft and ships that can do their jobs and protect their crews?

Going for the B-21, loyal wingmen, and the NGAD fighter here.
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Offline BobfromWB

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... we have to get them to where they can be utilized effectively. If we are to effectively deploy even one-way drones with loiter time over target areas, we need a platform to deploy them from, in effective numbers, and if it isn't survivable, the drones will not matter.

We also need the sort of defense that will counter the enemy's drones, whatever form that takes.

The USAF & Navy are already well into using cargo planes and other types to launch drones from. Its always defense and counter defense and counter-counter defense in any war - there is no one solution that works all the time - and only works until a counter is used, and so on. See the Russia-Ukraine war.

War is not a zero sum game. Its an evolving exchange that lasts until the last bloke that is willing to die for his cause is killed. Otherwise, every one just licks wounds, rearms, and awaits the next opportunity to strike the enemy.
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Offline BobfromWB

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Well, if we can't, we'd better figure out how.

Its called war. Everyone knows they can die at any point it it. No one is absolutely protected. Trying to figure that out has been going on since the first guy got hit by a spear.
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Offline libertybele

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And who told you that they are not beatable using conventional weapons? Do you know anything about the PLA other than what the billion dollar Chinese propaganda machine told you? Do you know anything about Chinese culture?

Do you know that PLA Rocket Forces use the rocket fuel to heat their tea? Do you know that China has not beaten anyone in any conflict since the Korean War [ where any 'victory' is very questionable ]? Do you know that any large scale troop loss will cause the abject collapse of the CCP as millions of people are made impoverished, destitute, and homeless when their sole support is killed in combat?

Do you know that the fancy weapons they proudly parade are usually constructed from plywood, plastic, and cardboard?

Do you know that a PLAN assignment to a submarine is largely a death sentence, so many have been lost?

Do you know that the Admiral of a fleet has to ask his political officer before any decision is taken and that decision must be OKed by the rest of the fleet's political officers and by Command in Beijing before any real action is taken?

It gets worse if I go on.

Thank you for your insight on this.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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And who told you that they are not beatable using conventional weapons? Do you know anything about the PLA other than what the billion dollar Chinese propaganda machine told you? Do you know anything about Chinese culture?

Do you know that PLA Rocket Forces use the rocket fuel to heat their tea? Do you know that China has not beaten anyone in any conflict since the Korean War [ where any 'victory' is very questionable ]? Do you know that any large scale troop loss will cause the abject collapse of the CCP as millions of people are made impoverished, destitute, and homeless when their sole support is killed in combat?

Do you know that the fancy weapons they proudly parade are usually constructed from plywood, plastic, and cardboard?

Do you know that a PLAN assignment to a submarine is largely a death sentence, so many have been lost?

Do you know that the Admiral of a fleet has to ask his political officer before any decision is taken and that decision must be OKed by the rest of the fleet's political officers and by Command in Beijing before any real action is taken?

It gets worse if I go on.

Yeah there's people that study this stuff for a living, I leave it up to them. Cause I have no idea. I've seen things on both sides. China does get the headlines I will say.

Offline BobfromWB

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China does get the headlines I will say.

That is what a multi-billion dollar propaganda campaign will buy.
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Offline MeganC

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Therein lies the problem...we can't anymore.

We can't build steam locomotives anymore. Nor should we.

But just the same as we build modern aircraft carriers, destroyers, and frigates, we can build modern battleships.
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Offline Kamaji

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What would be the point of a battleship?

And if it's not in line with the dreadnoughts of yesteryear, then it's not a "battleship" eo nomine.  So no, there is no such thing as a "modern" battleship that doesn't replicate what the dreadnoughts of old had, and it's been demonstrated rather convincingly that the dreadnoughts of old no longer make much sense militarily, other than keeping one or two commissioned for the sake of "showing off".
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Offline MeganC

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What would be the point of a battleship?

And if it's not in line with the dreadnoughts of yesteryear, then it's not a "battleship" eo nomine.  So no, there is no such thing as a "modern" battleship that doesn't replicate what the dreadnoughts of old had, and it's been demonstrated rather convincingly that the dreadnoughts of old no longer make much sense militarily, other than keeping one or two commissioned for the sake of "showing off".

For the love of God and all that is Holy stop with this bullshit that a modern capital ship has to look like they did in the 1940's!!!

The Zumwalt (DDG 1000) doesn't look like a Fletcher class, does it? Then please knock it off with these bullshit objections to the idea and let the naval architects sort it out.

Thank you.
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For the love of God and all that is Holy stop with this bullshit that a modern capital ship has to look like they did in the 1940's!!!

The Zumwalt (DDG 1000) doesn't look like a Fletcher class, does it? Then please knock it off with these bullshit objections to the idea and let the naval architects sort it out.

Thank you.

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Offline Kamaji

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For the love of God and all that is Holy stop with this bullshit that a modern capital ship has to look like they did in the 1940's!!!

The Zumwalt (DDG 1000) doesn't look like a Fletcher class, does it? Then please knock it off with these bullshit objections to the idea and let the naval architects sort it out.

Thank you.



If you want to call it a "battle ship", then a "battle ship" it must be.

If you want some other sort of capital ship, fine, but that doesn't make it a "battle ship". 

You want the classic contradiction, that which is both A and not-A at the same time.  Can't happen.

And Donald Trump just ain't that smart.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2025, 09:40:32 pm by mystery-ak »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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And who told you that they are not beatable using conventional weapons? Do you know anything about the PLA other than what the billion dollar Chinese propaganda machine told you? Do you know anything about Chinese culture?

Do you know that PLA Rocket Forces use the rocket fuel to heat their tea? Do you know that China has not beaten anyone in any conflict since the Korean War [ where any 'victory' is very questionable ]? Do you know that any large scale troop loss will cause the abject collapse of the CCP as millions of people are made impoverished, destitute, and homeless when their sole support is killed in combat?

Do you know that the fancy weapons they proudly parade are usually constructed from plywood, plastic, and cardboard?

Do you know that a PLAN assignment to a submarine is largely a death sentence, so many have been lost?

Do you know that the Admiral of a fleet has to ask his political officer before any decision is taken and that decision must be OKed by the rest of the fleet's political officers and by Command in Beijing before any real action is taken?

It gets worse if I go on.
All I know is that if LeMay had had his way and nuked the massed Chinese Communist troops across the Yalu River, my Dad would have had a shorter war and at least one less purple heart (out of three).
« Last Edit: October 06, 2025, 08:46:41 am by Smokin Joe »
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Well, if we can't, we'd better figure out how.

At this point the only way we'll learn is the hard way.
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Offline MeganC

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If you want to call it a "battle ship", then a "battle ship" it must be.

If you want some other sort of capital ship, fine, but that doesn't make it a "battle ship". 

You want the classic contradiction, that which is both A and not-A at the same time.  Can't happen.

And Donald Trump just ain't that smart.

And every frigate should look like The USS Constitution to satisfy your ridgid mindset.

And\nHere I thought I was the one who was autistic.  *****rollingeyes*****
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The USS Constitution is a frigate.
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Offline Kamaji

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And every frigate should look like The USS Constitution to satisfy your ridgid mindset.

And\nHere I thought I was the one who was autistic.  *****rollingeyes*****

It’s not my mindset that’s rigid.  A “battleship” is a very specific type of ship - look it up (for once) - akin to the way that “tractor-trailer” is a very specific type of commercial vehicle. 


Battleships, eo nomine, are no longer substantial warfare assets, any more than horse-drawn wagons are. 

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Offline BobfromWB

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All I know is that if LeMay had had his way and nuked the massed Chinese Communist troops across the Yalu River, my Dad would have had a shorter war and at least one less purple heart (out of three).

That was MacArthur. Truman fired him - and it was not nuking, but laying a miles wide belt of Cobalt 60 the entire length of the border.
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