Author Topic: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out  (Read 6032 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2025, 12:20:22 pm »
The rough, tough, creampuff bravado never stops with them.

It's fascinating to watch ... 88devil

Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2025, 12:22:21 pm »
Couple if Interesting factoids from FBN....

1. 96% of the time in history when the VIX has exceeded 40....   has resulted in an up market one year later.
2. The Finkster...  (what I call him) from Blackrock is saying the market is near a buying point.

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Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2025, 12:25:09 pm »
It's softer .... maybe his comm team will write the next one.  (Although I am lovin' "Panican"  :laugh: )

Did you see my earlier post from Cramer on "Black Monday"?.  As much as I hate 'em I might have to watch CNBC tonight for comic relief.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2025, 12:29:00 pm »
It's softer .... maybe his comm team will write the next one.  (Although I am lovin' "Panican"  :laugh: )

Well, he could have dusted off "We have nothing to fear but fear itself.", even if it has been used before. :laugh:
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Offline Wingnut

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2025, 12:33:24 pm »
If oil gets down to $40-$45 per barrel life will be good.  The US will stop drilling...but life will be good.  Time to refill the SPR that the Bungler In Chief decimated. 
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2025, 12:40:37 pm »
If oil gets down to $40-$45 per barrel life will be good.  The US will stop drilling...but life will be good.  Time to refill the SPR that the Bungler In Chief decimated.

At $40/bbl, Putin is probably dead within 6 months, and the Russian army stranded in The Ukraine.

Iran?  Bad...  really bad.  I don't know enough about their infrastructure to speculate on what will happen on the streets of Teheran. 
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2025, 12:43:54 pm »
If oil gets down to $40-$45 per barrel life will be good.  The US will stop drilling...but life will be good.  Time to refill the SPR that the Bungler In Chief decimated.
$60 is okay, for a little while. $40 just collapses another sector of the economy. Low prices set up high prices, because for the CAPEX to come out, the price has to shine. Depletion curves are steep on horizontal wells (80% drop from IP in the first year or two), and the price will spike later if drilling stops. For once, I'd love to see sustained activity and stable prices, because everyone would benefit in the log run (better able to budget).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2025, 12:53:21 pm »
$60 is okay, for a little while. $40 just collapses another sector of the economy. Low prices set up high prices, because for the CAPEX to come out, the price has to shine. Depletion curves are steep on horizontal wells (80% drop from IP in the first year or two), and the price will spike later if drilling stops. For once, I'd love to see sustained activity and stable prices, because everyone would benefit in the log run (better able to budget).

Like your perspective for the E & P part of the industry,   For M & R, it is a better story, as margins improve, and demand increases.  But that is the rub. Remember back in the '80's when oil dropped to $15/bbl?  It was a disaster for the Indy upstream businesses, and hurt states like, Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana badly in tax revenues.  And once the price returned, industry was ill prepared, and it took like 5 years to re-tool.

Long term $40/bbl oil is not good for the country.  But...  if it can shake out Putin and the Mullahs, it might be worth it in the long run.
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Offline mystery-ak

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2025, 01:11:55 pm »
 Updated April 7, 2025 11:38am EDT
Trump threatens to add 50% tariffs on China if retaliatory tariffs not dropped
China condemns Trump administration tariffs as 'economic bullying'

By Greg Norman FOXBusiness

President Donald Trump warned Monday that he would impose "additional tariffs on China of 50%" if Beijing "does not withdraw" the 34% tariffs it announced against the U.S. last week.

China unveiled the measures in response to Trump's "Liberation Day" tariff announcements.

"China issued Retaliatory Tariffs of 34%, on top of their already record setting Tariffs, Non-Monetary Tariffs, Illegal Subsidization of companies, and massive long term Currency Manipulation, despite my warning that any country that Retaliates against the U.S. by issuing additional Tariffs, above and beyond their already existing long term Tariff abuse of our Nation, will be immediately met with new and substantially higher Tariffs, over and above those initially set," Trump wrote on Truth Social.

"Therefore, if China does not withdraw its 34% increase above their already long term trading abuses by tomorrow, April 8th, 2025, the United States will impose ADDITIONAL Tariffs on China of 50%, effective April 9th," he continued. "Additionally, all talks with China concerning their requested meetings with us will be terminated! Negotiations with other countries, which have also requested meetings, will begin taking place immediately. Thank you for your attention to this matter!"

more
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/trump-says-china-biggest-abuser-them-all-tariffs-ignoring-his-warnings-not-retaliate
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2025, 01:18:28 pm »
Updated April 7, 2025 11:38am EDT
Trump threatens to add 50% tariffs on China if retaliatory tariffs not dropped
China condemns Trump administration tariffs as 'economic bullying'



I have a lot respect for Charles Payne, and in the last hour (commenting on this exchange),he thinks that there is now 50/50 that China invades Taiwan in the fairly near term  to invoke nationalism in the midst of this financial crisis.

Not far fetched at all.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2025, 02:13:14 pm »
All moot...  WH just announced there will be no 90 day pause.  Too bad, wish he would have. For 0rderly process.

Wonder who promulgated the rumor.  They need to be investigated for market manipulation fraud.
Those in the Administration should be very careful in stock trades during these roller coaster rides.

An innocent buy or sell might coincidentally be at a time a charge can be made for just such things.

Best if all in power keep financials in passive accounts
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2025, 02:17:57 pm »
Those in the Administration should be very careful in stock trades during these roller coaster rides.

An innocent buy or sell might coincidentally be at a time a charge can be made for just such things.

Best if all in power keep financials in passive accounts

Just like in '20, I am sure there are 1000's of low lifes who stealthly gamed the trading arbitrage to their advantage.  When you have trade volume of this level, good luck to SEC noticing any of the guilty.

That is why earlier I suggested that there be trading circuit breakers on trade volume, along with equity price drops.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2025, 02:31:44 pm »
$60 is okay, for a little while. $40 just collapses another sector of the economy. Low prices set up high prices, because for the CAPEX to come out, the price has to shine. Depletion curves are steep on horizontal wells (80% drop from IP in the first year or two), and the price will spike later if drilling stops. For once, I'd love to see sustained activity and stable prices, because everyone would benefit in the log run (better able to budget).
I have a different take as an oil and gas economist for decades and conducting many thousands of economics for projects .

Oil companies have a portfolio of many projects.  They seek stability of prices first and foremost, high prices secondarily for projects.

Projects are always examined for approval by achieving threshold returns, no matter what the price happens to be.

Higher prices mean more activity, sure, but are not necessarily as important as a degree of confidence that prices will not be volatile over the time a project's return on capital is obtained.

Even $40 oil is not a doom scenario for integrated oil companies, as at that price, the feedstock for their refineries and chemical plants make profits there outstanding.  And the dirty secret for oil companies that make profits from foreign sources, is that a cost recovery mechanism exists which permits the company to have their costs covered prior to profit taking, so it is a less risky proposition for the company to undertake.  The host country instead takes it on the chin during low oil prices in revenue.

That latter effect results in less drilling domestically and more overseas during low crude prices, and vice versa during high crude prices.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2025, 02:33:26 pm »
Hot off the press-

Bessent being tasked by Trump for direct negotiations with Japan for trade resolution. 

Nice big chunk to resolve right there.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2025, 02:40:37 pm »
I have a different take as an oil and gas economist for decades and conducting many thousands of economics for projects .

Oil companies have a portfolio of many projects.  They seek stability of prices first and foremost, high prices secondarily for projects.

Projects are always examined for approval by achieving threshold returns, no matter what the price happens to be.

Higher prices mean more activity, sure, but are not necessarily as important as a degree of confidence that prices will not be volatile over the time a project's return on capital is obtained.

Even $40 oil is not a doom scenario for integrated oil companies, as at that price, the feedstock for their refineries and chemical plants make profits there outstanding.  And the dirty secret for oil companies that make profits from foreign sources, is that a cost recovery mechanism exists which permits the company to have their costs covered prior to profit taking, so it is a less risky proposition for the company to undertake.  The host country instead takes it on the chin during low oil prices in revenue.

That latter effect results in less drilling domestically and more overseas during low crude prices, and vice versa during high crude prices.

100% correct, and why the likes of CVX and XOM have survived a 120 years.  Still even as an oil company retiree, I don't have problem with $40/bbl oi for awhile, and that financial sacrifice for me, ..... if it eliminates some nagging geopolitical problems like Russia and Iran. 

I was around during $15/bbl oil, and it wasn't fun.   
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2025, 04:40:20 pm »
100% correct, and why the likes of CVX and XOM have survived a 120 years.  Still even as an oil company retiree, I don't have problem with $40/bbl oi for awhile, and that financial sacrifice for me, ..... if it eliminates some nagging geopolitical problems like Russia and Iran. 

I was around during $15/bbl oil, and it wasn't fun.
I was a field engineer assessing projects at $4/bbl and there were a lot of projects to do.

The big integrated companies pay a consistent dividend that grows over time, one reason I am big with them.  They can do this with the diversification of domestic/foreign production, upstream vs downstream and make money through thick or thin.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2025, 08:57:44 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline oldno7

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2025, 08:42:04 pm »
 Since I retired and somewhat before, I have been a successful short term/daytrader.

Today was a nice day, bought NVDA and TSLA(early)

Offline Hoodat

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2025, 08:46:18 pm »
Since I retired and somewhat before, I have been a successful short term/daytrader.

Today was a nice day, bought NVDA and TSLA(early)

Buddy of mine at work made $10k on Friday by trading options.  I caught him in the break room and screamed at him,  "YOU DID THIS !!!  YOU JINXED THE MARKET !!!"

Anyway, he just does it for fun and readily admits that what he does is gambling.  He hits it more often than he misses though.
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Offline oldno7

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2025, 08:51:41 pm »
Buddy of mine at work made $10k on Friday by trading options.  I caught him in the break room and screamed at him,  "YOU DID THIS !!!  YOU JINXED THE MARKET !!!"

Anyway, he just does it for fun and readily admits that what he does is gambling.  He hits it more often than he misses though.

 It's all fun and games until the bloodbath :beer: I have a good system I wrote on Think or Swim.
Heres some buys this morning.
Will they hold? I have no idea, I'm a reaction trader, not a prediction trader.
Well those are small but clickable, I hope.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2025, 09:02:14 pm »
I should have put everything I had in GME.  It's gone up 14% over the last five days.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2025, 10:51:13 pm »
I have a different take as an oil and gas economist for decades and conducting many thousands of economics for projects .

Oil companies have a portfolio of many projects.  They seek stability of prices first and foremost, high prices secondarily for projects.

Projects are always examined for approval by achieving threshold returns, no matter what the price happens to be.

Higher prices mean more activity, sure, but are not necessarily as important as a degree of confidence that prices will not be volatile over the time a project's return on capital is obtained.

Even $40 oil is not a doom scenario for integrated oil companies, as at that price, the feedstock for their refineries and chemical plants make profits there outstanding.  And the dirty secret for oil companies that make profits from foreign sources, is that a cost recovery mechanism exists which permits the company to have their costs covered prior to profit taking, so it is a less risky proposition for the company to undertake.  The host country instead takes it on the chin during low oil prices in revenue.

That latter effect results in less drilling domestically and more overseas during low crude prices, and vice versa during high crude prices.
My focus is on the Domestic upstream oil industry. I have turned down opportunities to work overseas and concentrated my efforts here. If energy self-sufficiency is the goal, decimating the upstream end of the domestic oil industry is not the way to achieve it. Yes, the multinational larger oil companies will ride that out just fine, at least at the boardroom level, but the effects of busting a booming domestic industry in mid stride have always been that good people leave the industry, equipment is scrapped, despite being viable, and in the long run, to get those hands back, it's going to cost a lot more.  My first 'bust' was in '82, and there have been a few since. We don't need one now, especially when you consider the decline curves I mentioned.
Coming on the heels of the Biden anti-oil era, and having areas reopened or freshly opened to drilling, crashing the price will mean lost opportunity to make new discoveries and exploit that window of opportunity.

If we get another Democrat in office, we're stuck with reduced production (80% production decline from IP on horizontal wells drilled until the price crash, which happens in the first couple years, not replaced by constant new production brought on line*)  and undeveloped prospects that may not be reopened to drilling in our lifetimes.

*Please note, this is the salient difference between the bust of say, 1986, where the vast majority of wells were vertical wells, which declined from IP relatively slowly, no where near as fast as the first two year decrease in production from Horizontal wells in unconventional reservoirs.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2025, 09:06:21 am »
My focus is on the Domestic upstream oil industry. I have turned down opportunities to work overseas and concentrated my efforts here. If energy self-sufficiency is the goal, decimating the upstream end of the domestic oil industry is not the way to achieve it. Yes, the multinational larger oil companies will ride that out just fine, at least at the boardroom level, but the effects of busting a booming domestic industry in mid stride have always been that good people leave the industry, equipment is scrapped, despite being viable, and in the long run, to get those hands back, it's going to cost a lot more.  My first 'bust' was in '82, and there have been a few since. We don't need one now, especially when you consider the decline curves I mentioned.
Coming on the heels of the Biden anti-oil era, and having areas reopened or freshly opened to drilling, crashing the price will mean lost opportunity to make new discoveries and exploit that window of opportunity.

If we get another Democrat in office, we're stuck with reduced production (80% production decline from IP on horizontal wells drilled until the price crash, which happens in the first couple years, not replaced by constant new production brought on line*)  and undeveloped prospects that may not be reopened to drilling in our lifetimes.

*Please note, this is the salient difference between the bust of say, 1986, where the vast majority of wells were vertical wells, which declined from IP relatively slowly, no where near as fast as the first two year decrease in production from Horizontal wells in unconventional reservoirs.
I understand completely your pain and have met a taxi driver once who used to be a geologist for an oil company during the 80s.

Low prices will always be part of the cycle unfortunately.  They will go back up eventually and we will have to rebuild our resource structure to support increased activity.
One key difference now vs the 80s is that there were very limited expertise and resources outside the US in industry back then.  One reason I was needed in the North Sea. Now there is tremendous access present across the world in the industry, so the US can obtain such much more quickly and lessen the slump in retraining for US energy needs.

While that does not offer much solace for individuals impacted here, it certainly supports a better effect to this country to get back up and running after a slump.

The golden light present now is that the nail will finally get hammered into the coffin of renewables as the low oil prices will decimate any and all financial attraction for them in the absence of government interference. 

It will be some time before a company ventures whole-hog into renewable projects that have no discernable financial payout.

As an aside, I witnessed first-hand the effects of the 80s low prices.  I chose to work internationally during that decade and so was insulated from all the domestic turmoil that occurred.  It is just a fact of life in the complex world of global oil industry.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2025, 09:16:48 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2025, 09:57:58 am »
Wealth destruction is one way to fight inflation from the monetary side.
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Offline catfish1957

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Re: $2.4 Trillion in Stock Valuation Wiped Out
« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2025, 10:40:34 am »
Wealth destruction is one way to fight inflation from the monetary side.

You 100% sure of this, past this tariff discussion period?

Let's bookmark this post, and revisit it 12/31/25 and see if you are right
I display the Confederate Battle Flag in honor of my great great great grandfathers who spilled blood at Wilson's Creek and Shiloh.  5 others served in the WBTS with honor too.