Author Topic: The Public Gives a Big “NO” to $9 Billion Pipeline to Capture CO2 from 57 Ethanol Plants Across Five  (Read 1987 times)

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Offline rangerrebew

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The Public Gives a Big “NO” to $9 Billion Pipeline to Capture CO2 from 57 Ethanol Plants Across Five States
 
By
Guest Contributor
February 21, 2025
 

Editor’s Note: Among the really egregious policy grifts politicians and politically connected green energy profiteers have developed to profit from fears of climate change is the idea of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS).  Under that scheme, carbon dioxide generated during hydrocarbon production and use is captured before it can be released into the atmosphere, and is then stored underground. As explained in Climate Change Weekly recently, different parties benefit from government CCS promotion in different ways, but the result for climate and the public is always the same – higher energy costs and no impact on the climate.

The Heartland Institute recently released a study, Carbon Capture & Property Rights, examining the myriad costs and dangers to health and private property threatened by large scale government efforts to promote carbon capture and storage. It seems, as discussed in the guest post below, in some states the public is getting the message; coming out to tell public officials that they should not endorse CCS, nor allow companies profiting from it to be allowed to use eminent domain to take private property to further their private interests.

Guest Post by Makenzie Huber of South Dakota Searchlight via ESG University.

Hundreds of people, many of them opponents of a carbon dioxide pipeline, filled the Southeast Technical College auditorium Wednesday evening for a state Public Utilities Commission hearing regarding a second attempt by Summit Carbon Solutions to gain a permit for the project.

“We know this is an incredibly important issue to you,” said Commissioner Gary Hanson at the start of the three-hour meeting. “We are here today to learn and listen, and we appreciate each of you being with us today to give us your input.”

https://climaterealism.com/2025/02/the-public-gives-a-big-no-to-9-billion-pipeline-to-capture-co2-from-57-ethanol-plants-across-five-states/
The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth.  George Washington - Farewell Address

Offline Smokin Joe

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One of the major concerns is with the ramifications of a major leak. Unlike natural gas which can be burned off until controlled, CO2 won't burn, and in sufficient concentration, will not permit combustion or even animal life.

In the event of a major leak, it is heavier than air, colorless and odorless, and people envision pools, plumes, and pockets where no human or animal can live, where the car dies (or never starts) if you try to escape (if you even get that far) or if you drive into the cloud...in irregular terrain, just entering a small valley could be deadly.

The Lake Nyos Disaster figures prominently in the minds of the resistance, even though that was a natural occurrence. No one believes that a chance should be taken with the lives of people where the line is supposed to run, except a few promoters and such who won't be living there.

As for me, I don't see going to the expense and risk for a false pretense of stopping global warming, anyway, especially in the cause of making "environmentally friendly renewable fuels" more environmentally friendly.
(Small batch ethanol is fine for purging water from fuel systems, or under the correct manufacturing processes, for moderate consumption, but as a fuel it has a far bigger carbon footprint than it gets credit for. I guess it is fine if you have no other resources, but we do not need to use it.)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2025, 08:35:02 am by Smokin Joe »
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Online Bigun

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How about we just fix the damned problem and shut down those damned useless ethanol plants!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Free Vulcan

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The thing is, this project has no income stream beyond subsidies. They want to pipe it underground, last I heard to caves and bubble thru calcium water to make it inert (never been done before) and call it good.

As recently as '23 there was a CO2 shortage for bottling and other applications. Why are they not creating a source of income by using this for relieve the shortage?

Because it's a grift, with your taxpayer money, lots of glam and promises and not much positive on the backside with the potential safety hazard.
The Republic is lost.

Offline Smokin Joe

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 :pondering:

How about adapting what pipeline is built to carry crude, distillates, and refitting ethanol plants to make topping facilities? https://www.aiche.org/conferences/videos/conference-presentations/new-age-topping-plant-regional-refining-and-regional-power-generation

Pipe in crude, distill off the diesel fraction, and send the byproducts (lighter/heavier fractions) off as value added feedstock for chemical plants.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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That pipeline to North Dakota for CO2 could have some benefits for the increase in crude production in the Williston basin if it went that far.

I believe when I worked the Williston there were some pilot tests of achieving miscibility within the Bakken.  I don't recall results but, I do remember that the feasibility was dropped as there was no reliable CO2 source available.

CO2 is a great enhancer of in-situ crude recovery, but needs specific characteristics of crude and formation to make it work, as well as sourced CO2.

The Williston is a great resource for the state, and any potential to increase its recovery of crude is certainly a consideration. 

My thoughts are the new Energy Secretary is extremely knowledgeable in this area and can take it properly under consideration for a project like this.
@Smokin Joe
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Offline Smokin Joe

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That pipeline to North Dakota for CO2 could have some benefits for the increase in crude production in the Williston basin if it went that far.

I believe when I worked the Williston there were some pilot tests of achieving miscibility within the Bakken.  I don't recall results but, I do remember that the feasibility was dropped as there was no reliable CO2 source available.

CO2 is a great enhancer of in-situ crude recovery, but needs specific characteristics of crude and formation to make it work, as well as sourced CO2.

The Williston is a great resource for the state, and any potential to increase its recovery of crude is certainly a consideration. 

My thoughts are the new Energy Secretary is extremely knowledgeable in this area and can take it properly under consideration for a project like this.
@Smokin Joe
Nice in theory, but the location and depth (formation) of the injection wells are not in an oil producing formation nor in an oil producing area. It's just someone else's shit being dumped in our state.

Besides, the Bakken/Three Forks wells have high NGLs and increase their GOR as they age. Why pollute that resource with a non-flammable gas that would have to be separated out at the gas plants, and how would producing CO2 from the ground play with the wacko Carbon Dioxide regs?

One of the chief opposition groups is around Bismarck, ND, and the buffer zone around the pipeline would restrict the growth of the State's Capital City to the East and North. Not popular at all, and again, the possibility of creating an artificial Lake Nyos event is always playing in people's minds.

Most of the over 300 wells I have worked have been in the Williston Basin, stratigraphically from the Spearfish to the Deadwood (and the structured saprolite below the Paleozoics). Carbonate reservoirs are the most common by far, and tend to be more complex than the layer cake presentations that get the wells drilled, there are distinct reservoir boundaries within the same formations, and that has been proven, from the Mission Canyon Fm. to the Red River Fm. Even the Permian Basin has reservoir boundaries laterally, we were running Mass Spec on one well (Wolfcamp)  out by Andrews, and identified three distinct pods in the lateral using geochemistry.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2025, 03:53:44 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Fishrrman

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This entire concept -- "capturing" CO2, then "piping" it to somewhere to inject it into the earth....

It's just totally insane.
It makes no sense at all.
Time to consign this idea to the dustbins...

Offline Hoodat

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I don't have a problem with this scheme as long as it doesn't involve any taxpayer money.  Same goes for the ethanol plants.  If they happen to have $9 billion in extra cash lying around, have at it.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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This entire concept -- "capturing" CO2, then "piping" it to somewhere to inject it into the earth....

It's just totally insane.
It makes no sense at all.
Time to consign this idea to the dustbins...
for decades the Permian basin has piped CO2 from hundreds of miles away from Colorado and New Mexico, contributing many hundreds of millions of barrels crude due to increased recoveries from injecting CO2 into oil reservoirs.

There is a deficit in CO2 sources right now to inject even more and increase crude reserves by many millions of barrels.

I know as I worked those fields and know the geologists who were looking for new sources of CO2.

While we know increased recovery from CO2 injection works well in places in the Permian, that certainty does not exist in the Williston.
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline Hoodat

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While we know increased recovery from CO2 injection works well in places in the Permian, that certainty does not exist in the Williston.

One day it will.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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One day it will.
I do hope, but in oil field terminology, CO2 injection to increase recovery is called tertiary recovery, as it is the third tier of attempting to increase what one gets in a discovered oilfield.  It is expensive and risky and only works when fluids and rocks are favorable.  If they are not, then alternate methods of recovery must be used instead to obtain more oil in tertiary processes.
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Offline Sighlass

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How about we just fix the damned problem and shut down those damned useless ethanol plants!


THIS ^^^^^
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I finally found one of the test pilots results.

Based upon my reservoir engineering review, it is a failure, and will be tough to justify any followup activity. @Smokin Joe @Hoodat

Maybe we don't need any CO2 brought into the Williston

BAKKEN CO2 STORAGE AND ENHANCED
RECOVERY PROGRAM


https://www.netl.doe.gov/sites/default/files/event-proceedings/2017/carbon-storage-oil-and-natural-gas/thur/Jim-Sorensen_Bakken-CO2-Storage-EOR-MstrSubs2017-Final.pdf
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Offline Hoodat

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I do hope, but in oil field terminology, CO2 injection to increase recovery is called tertiary recovery, as it is the third tier of attempting to increase what one gets in a discovered oilfield.  It is expensive and risky and only works when fluids and rocks are favorable.  If they are not, then alternate methods of recovery must be used instead to obtain more oil in tertiary processes.

One interesting thing about dissolving CO2 in organic solvents is that it turns a polar solvent into a non-polar one.  Take a solvent like acetone or methanol which are polar.  They excel in dissolving polar solutes.  One can dissolve a polar solute in methanol, then pump CO2 into it under high pressure, and the polar solute will precipitate out as the solvent changes from polar to non-polar.

Anyway, none of this applies to petroleum which is already non-polar.  But it is cool how much CO2 you can get to dissolve in organic liquids.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline Hoodat

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I finally found one of the test pilots results.

Based upon my reservoir engineering review, it is a failure, and will be tough to justify any followup activity. @Smokin Joe @Hoodat

Maybe we don't need any CO2 brought into the Williston

BAKKEN CO2 STORAGE AND ENHANCED
RECOVERY PROGRAM


https://www.netl.doe.gov/sites/default/files/event-proceedings/2017/carbon-storage-oil-and-natural-gas/thur/Jim-Sorensen_Bakken-CO2-Storage-EOR-MstrSubs2017-Final.pdf

Thanks for posting that, @IsailedawayfromFR .  Working offshore, they would repressurize the wells by pumping seawater into them with the same power pumps they used to feed the pipeline.  But the seawater had to be de-oxygenated first before it went into the well.

When wells are new, they may bring in 98% oil and gas, and 2% sand and water.  But as time goes by, water cuts get higher and higher.
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Online Bigun

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Thanks for posting that, @IsailedawayfromFR .  Working offshore, they would repressurize the wells by pumping seawater into them with the same power pumps they used to feed the pipeline.  But the seawater had to be de-oxygenated first before it went into the well.

When wells are new, they may bring in 98% oil and gas, and 2% sand and water.  But as time goes by, water cuts get higher and higher.

I've practically come to blows with reservoir engineers who thought it would be just fine to pump untreated sea water into a formation. 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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That is interesting.

The CO2 for tertiary recovery does not form a chemical reaction, but is used to reduce in-situ fluid viscosity so that fluids flow more readily through the rock to be produced at the well.

The CO2 must be miscible to the fluids, which has to have a threshold pressure, temperature and fluid composition to work.

Works real well in Permian oil reservoirs, and typically can increase overall crude recovery by ~10% of the original oil in place.  A big number.

Mostly done with conventional reservoirs having good permeability.

Problem with unconventional reservoirs like the Bakken is the reduced rock permeability, which causes difficulty in injected CO2(or any fluid) to be distributed across reservoir volume to contact the in-situ fluids.

That was the problem encountered in the pilot:  Works good in the lab but sucks when a field test is conducted. @Hoodat
« Last Edit: February 22, 2025, 10:49:57 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I've practically come to blows with reservoir engineers who thought it would be just fine to pump untreated sea water into a formation. 
This one would not support that.

Operations hands are the ones to educate us office engineers that all salt water is not the same, particularly if it was produced along with oil.

And I was one of those operating hands when I worked those field jobs in south and gulf coast Texas, and was fortunate to remember those early days in the oil patch.
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This one would not support that.

Operations hands are the ones to educate us office engineers that all salt water is not the same, particularly if it was produced along with oil.

And I was one of those operating hands when I worked those field jobs in south and gulf coast Texas, and was fortunate to remember those early days in the oil patch.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline Smokin Joe

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That is interesting.

The CO2 for tertiary recovery does not form a chemical reaction, but is used to reduce in-situ fluid viscosity so that fluids flow more readily through the rock to be produced at the well.

The CO2 must be miscible to the fluids, which has to have a threshold pressure, temperature and fluid composition to work.

Works real well in Permian oil reservoirs, and typically can increase overall crude recovery by ~10% of the original oil in place.  A big number.

Mostly done with conventional reservoirs having good permeability.

Problem with unconventional reservoirs like the Bakken is the reduced rock permeability, which causes difficulty in injected CO2(or any fluid) to be distributed across reservoir volume to contact the in-situ fluids.

That was the problem encountered in the pilot:  Works good in the lab but sucks when a field test is conducted. @Hoodat
Weyburn field in Southern Saskatchewan has been doing terirary recovery using CO2 for decades, but sources the CO2 from the Synfuels plant in Buelah, ND, where coal is converted to fuels and other byproducts.

https://www.dakotagas.com/about-us/CO2-capture-and-storage/index

But the Weyburn field is in carbonates in one of the shallower parts of the Williston Basin, and those sediments are more conducive to tertiary recovery injection than the more complex interlaminated aand thin interbedded carbonate/clastic sediments of the Bakken and Three Forks.

The disposal wells proposed for the ethanol plant CO2 were not in oil bearing formations, and outside limits of known oil production in the Williston Basin. This isn't an enhanced oil recovery operation, but a garbage dump to gain the appearance of being environmentally correct and to placate the people and agencies who think CO2 is a pollutant.
It isn't, at least until the concentrations become lethal, which is what would be being pumped across multiple states.
I have to note that there is a certain assumption by places with lots of people that they can dump their trash in places without a lot of people. Keep your money and your trash.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 08:08:47 am by Smokin Joe »
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Weyburn field in Southern Saskatchewan has been doing terirary recovery using CO2 for decades, but sources the CO2 from the Synfuels plant in Buelah, ND, where coal is converted to fuels and other byproducts.

https://www.dakotagas.com/about-us/CO2-capture-and-storage/index

But the Weyburn field is in carbonates in one of the shallower parts of the Williston Basin, and those sediments are more conducive to tertiary recovery injection than the more complex interlaminated aand thin interbedded carbonate/clastic sediments of the Bakken and Three Forks.

The disposal wells proposed for the ethanol plant CO2 were not in oil bearing formations, and outside limits of known oil production in the Williston Basin. This isn't an enhanced oil recovery operation, but a garbage dump to gain the appearance of being environmentally correct and to placate the people and agencies who think CO2 is a pollutant.
It isn't, at least until the concentrations become lethal, which is what would be being pumped across multiple states.
I have to note that there is a certain assumption by places with lots of people that they can dump their trash in places without a lot of people. Keep your money and your trash.

Interesting page regarding Dakota Gas and your comments are spot on. Sequestration is one of those things that’s not a problem until it is a big problem.
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Weyburn field in Southern Saskatchewan has been doing terirary recovery using CO2 for decades, but sources the CO2 from the Synfuels plant in Buelah, ND, where coal is converted to fuels and other byproducts.

https://www.dakotagas.com/about-us/CO2-capture-and-storage/index

But the Weyburn field is in carbonates in one of the shallower parts of the Williston Basin, and those sediments are more conducive to tertiary recovery injection than the more complex interlaminated aand thin interbedded carbonate/clastic sediments of the Bakken and Three Forks.

The disposal wells proposed for the ethanol plant CO2 were not in oil bearing formations, and outside limits of known oil production in the Williston Basin. This isn't an enhanced oil recovery operation, but a garbage dump to gain the appearance of being environmentally correct and to placate the people and agencies who think CO2 is a pollutant.
It isn't, at least until the concentrations become lethal, which is what would be being pumped across multiple states.
I have to note that there is a certain assumption by places with lots of people that they can dump their trash in places without a lot of people. Keep your money and your trash.
I affirm your comments regarding pumping CO2 into underground caverns that do nothing but make certain climate wackos feel good, and can potentially produce undesirable effects like leakage and unneeded pollution in areas affected.  In my mind, sequestration for no reason benefits nobody.

My entire original comments were directed at the beneficial aspects of producing and usage of CO2 for enhancements in oil producing theaters, and I wanted to ensure readers here are aware of the those beneficial aspects:

1. It is a solid, proven way to up the amount of oil recovery used by industry.
2. There is an urgent present need for increased volumes of CO2 to be provided to industry, particularly in the Permian basin operations to improve recovery in the largest oil basin in the US.
3. It may not be relevant for certain oil fields as it may not work adequately to justify commercially its introduction.
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I affirm your comments regarding pumping CO2 into underground caverns that do nothing but make certain climate wackos feel good, and can potentially produce undesirable effects like leakage and unneeded pollution in areas affected.  In my mind, sequestration for no reason benefits nobody.

My entire original comments were directed at the beneficial aspects of producing and usage of CO2 for enhancements in oil producing theaters, and I wanted to ensure readers here are aware of the those beneficial aspects:

1. It is a solid, proven way to up the amount of oil recovery used by industry.
2. There is an urgent present need for increased volumes of CO2 to be provided to industry, particularly in the Permian basin operations to improve recovery in the largest oil basin in the US.
3. It may not be relevant for certain oil fields as it may not work adequately to justify commercially its introduction.

One example of this being Seminole CO
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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I affirm your comments regarding pumping CO2 into underground caverns that do nothing but make certain climate wackos feel good, and can potentially produce undesirable effects like leakage and unneeded pollution in areas affected.  In my mind, sequestration for no reason benefits nobody.

My entire original comments were directed at the beneficial aspects of producing and usage of CO2 for enhancements in oil producing theaters, and I wanted to ensure readers here are aware of the those beneficial aspects:

1. It is a solid, proven way to up the amount of oil recovery used by industry.
2. There is an urgent present need for increased volumes of CO2 to be provided to industry, particularly in the Permian basin operations to improve recovery in the largest oil basin in the US.
3. It may not be relevant for certain oil fields as it may not work adequately to justify commercially its introduction.
In the one lateral I worked in the Permian Basin, we identified three reservoir boundaries using Mass Spec data. That means four discrete reservoirs were cut in just two miles. That does not bode well for using CO2 flood to achieve enhanced (tertiary) recovery. Much will depend on the orientation of the laterals relative to the reservoir boundaries, and there is a dearth of data as to the location of those boundaries, simply because most wells there do not have that quality of data.
Our geochemical data was separate, from a separate gas extractor on the shakers to the lab units, from the mud loggers', and that is a good thing. I never met them, as they were conspicuously absent from the location while I was there. Their polyflow line (which brings gas from the extractor on the shaker to analytical equipment in their shack) remained parted for four days and they did nothing to fix it, so any reported gas readings they had, even if more rudimentary, were bogus for that time. You get what you pay for, I guess. 
If that data was present and valid, there is a chance that some of it could be of good enough quality to identify some reservoir boundaries there and determine fields/wells/or areas that are more conducive to tertiary recovery, but I think a lot of what is being seen is the normal production decline in horizontal wells: a steep decline from IP to more sustained production, of abut 80% in the first two years, with more sustained production at ~20% of IP after that with a much slower decline rate, a general increase in produced water, and increase in GOR (Gas/Oil Ratio) as the dissolved gas precipitates from the oil with pressure reduction.

Another problem that can rear its ugly head is when the reservoir reaches 'bubble point' and pore blocking by gas bubbles, something the Canadians were looking into at the U of Regina, and the presence of that phenomenon may be an indicator that using CO2 for reservoir pressure maintenance is a good way to restore and maintain production levels to something approaching levels before the decline.

The question remains one of weighing the value/expense (in the case of more water) of any enhanced recovery against whether the NGLs in the wellhead gas and the gas itself is valuable enough to support the reduction in oil production and costs of water disposal or the cost of processing the CO2 out of the wellhead gas in order to market that. There may well be a point where those curves cross, that will be different for every well, but similar enough to come up with a strategy for tertiary recovery operations in a given field area, provided that proof of concept can be obtained.

Just like walking across the ground, walk a mile in virtually any direction and take careful note of the sediments beneath your feet, there are almost always changes that would, in a reservoir, have effects on the efficacy of CO2 flood operations and which would affect production. About the only place I have ever been I did not notice those differences was on the Salt Flats in Utah, which at the surface had the most homogeneous surface sediments of any place I have ever been (at least on that scale).

I am not saying it won't work, but that the application may be more limited than those doing sales may admit. One well, after all may indicate potential problems, but it does not define the entire Basin by any metric. If there is proof of concept, turn that pipeline around and head it south!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2025, 10:03:34 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis