Author Topic: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday  (Read 5415 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2024, 12:19:39 pm »
Yup, so all it takes is a person who was born in the U.S. and therefore became a U.S. citizen at birth.  That is a natural born citizen.

I guess you missed this part:

Quote
The admission of foreigners into our councils, consequently, cannot be too much guarded against; their total exclusion from a station to which foreign nations have been accustomed to, attach ideas of sovereign power, sacredness of character, and hereditary right, is a measure of the most consummate policy and wisdom.

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"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2024, 12:23:59 pm »
The fact still remains that birthright citizenship IS one of the biggest magnets for ILLEGAL immigration.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2024, 12:24:32 pm »
I guess you missed this part:

I made it big so you can see it!


:facepalm2:

Yup.  And that is why they did not want someone who had been born and grown up in another country and only come to the U.S. as an adult as the president.

A person who was born in the U.S. and who grew up in the U.S. satisfies those requirements.

A "natural born citizen" is an individual who was born in the U.S.  Where their parents came from is of no consequence with the sole exception of someone whose parents, at the time of his/her birth were acting diplomats on current accreditation to the U.S. as diplomats.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2024, 12:25:15 pm »
The fact still remains that birthright citizenship IS one of the biggest magnets for ILLEGAL immigration.

I don't disagree with you.  But if you want to change that, you will have to get the Constitution amended. 


Online Bigun

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2024, 12:34:39 pm »

:facepalm2:

Yup.  And that is why they did not want someone who had been born and grown up in another country and only come to the U.S. as an adult as the president.

A person who was born in the U.S. and who grew up in the U.S. satisfies those requirements.

A "natural born citizen" is an individual who was born in the U.S.  Where their parents came from is of no consequence with the sole exception of someone whose parents, at the time of his/her birth were acting diplomats on current accreditation to the U.S. as diplomats.

The highlighted part is complete BS and YOU know it!

I posted three examples of SCOTUS telling us what a "Natural Born" Citizen is above and you respond that they didn't know what they were talking about even though, at least in the first example, they were themselves members of the founding generation. I can't pitch them any slower.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 12:37:50 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2024, 12:37:15 pm »
I don't disagree with you.  But if you want to change that, you will have to get the Constitution amended.

That's the obvious -- but that brings us back to 'interpretation' of eligibility.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2024, 12:44:47 pm »
That's the obvious -- but that brings us back to 'interpretation' of eligibility.

No, it doesn't.

Anyone who is physically present within the geographic confines of the U.S. is subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., with the exception of accredited diplomats who, in accordance with international law and treaty obligations, cannot be punished by a U.S. court and can only be expelled from the country.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2024, 01:03:27 pm »
No, it doesn't.

Anyone who is physically present within the geographic confines of the U.S. is subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S., with the exception of accredited diplomats who, in accordance with international law and treaty obligations, cannot be punished by a U.S. court and can only be expelled from the country.

Interesting that you used that pesky word 'jurisdiction'.  Just sayin'.

Online Bigun

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2024, 01:05:40 pm »
Quote
from: libertybele on Today at 11:17:14 am
Duh ... obviously .... the keyword is "jurisdiction"  and that is a point of contention.

Smugness and arrogance....you gotta love it right?   :laugh:


Dude - so to speak - do you even know what the term means?  Because from your posts, it's pretty obvious that you don't.

According to the people who passed the 14th amendment it means those not subject to any other jurisdiction.

Please read!

https://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20211111045042/https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=073/llcg073.db&recNum=11
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2024, 02:34:50 pm »
Oh we have a Constitution, but how many of our elected officials will honestly adhere to it?
I wonder if even half of them have read it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Harris Eligibility Lawsuit Hearing Friday
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2024, 03:58:45 pm »
No, actually, you don't care about enforcing the Constitution, you care about finding some mostly irrelevant hook to "justify" the end-results you want to reach for other reasons.  Vattel wasn't elected, didn't write the Constitution, or any part of it, and wasn't expressly incorporated into any part of the Constitution by express or necessary implication.

Vattel is not determinative of what the terms of the Constitution mean, including the requirements for being president.  Vattel can be used as guidance to try and work out a principled distinction between the bare term "citizen" and the phrase "natural born citizen" and the simplest, and most straightforward, back in the day when there weren't even any simple immigration controls, was that the Founders were looking for some proxy, some indicia that an individual was more likely not a foreign mole, someone with foreign loyalties who was attempting to become president to subvert the U.S.  The indicia they arrived at was that if someone had been born in the U.S., and had grown up as always being an American, that such a person would have the requisite lack of foreign entangling loyalties.  Thus, a "natural born citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution most comfortably fits with the distinction between an individual who was born here and an individual who was born elsewhere and subsequently immigrated to the U.S.  That this is also consistent with the express language of the 14th Amendment further buttresses the interpretation of the phrase "natural born citizen".

On that basis, the most reasonable reading of the requirement that the president be a "natural born citizen" is that the person have been an American since birth - that he or she have been born in the U.S. - and not merely naturalized into U.S. citizenship when he or she was already an adult (minor children cannot become naturalized citizens before they turn 18).

That is a sufficient distinction between the bare term "citizen" and the compound phrase "natural born citizen", it accomplishes the purposes the Founders appear to have had when they drafted the requirement, and is therefore the most likely interpretation of that phrase in the context of who can be citizen.

Trying to impose Vattel as the end-all-be-all of the meaning of the Constitution is more of an abuse of the Constitution than finding a workable, reasonable interpretation of the language is.
The early edition (1774) of Barclay's dictionary was not expressly incorporated in the Constitution, BUT the words defined in it were, with meanings understood in that historical context. Same with concepts borrowed from English Common Law, and elsewhere, including Vattel.

What makes sense in the historical context of the Founding?

That no one with any allegiance to another country be allowed to fill the highest offices in the land. Citizenship was considered conferred through the Father, not just by geographical place of birth. If the father was a citizen of another country, they were subject to that country's jurisdiction, no matter where they went, as well as the laws of the land they stood upon. It stands to reason that those most loyal to the budding Republic would be born of citizens of that selfsame republic, and have lived their lives growing up in the Republic or under the jurisdiction thereof  (which they would be, as children of citizens). There is nothing whatsoever that magically makes a person born of foreign parents loyal to any other country (besides that/those of their parents) just by virtue of merely being born somewhere else.

Being born of US citizen parents and raised under US law and the Constitution may not guarantee such loyalty, but the odds are far better.

Otherwise, British Loyalists could have come to America with the intent of returning the colonies to England from within, and raise (and groom) a child to run for public office, and perhaps become President to fulfill that aim.

Today, expand that to the other 193 or so countries on the globe, and especially stir in a healthy (or unhealthy) dose of Marxism or some other anti-Constitutional and anti-American philosophy from childhood, and just get that gestating baby across the line, like a lunge for the end zone, and they can be president some day? Even if neither parent ever eventually became a US citizen? I really do not think that is what the Founders had in mind.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis