Author Topic: U.S. Navy Iowa-Class Battleships: Could They Really Make a Comeback? Story by James Holmes • 2h  (Read 1943 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rangerrebew

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 176,940

U.S. Navy Iowa-Class Battleships: Could They Really Make a Comeback?
Story by James Holmes • 2h

Over at Popular Mechanics, Kyle Mizokami reports on a video clip (see below) posted by Ryan Szimanski, curator of the USS New Jersey Museum and Memorial, Camden, New Jersey. Last spring, New Jersey spent nearly twelve weeks drydocked in Philadelphia, undergoing $10 million worth of hull repairs, maintenance, and painting. Doubtless, it sorely needed the upkeep. Water and metal are natural enemies—and the dreadnought was last out of the water over three decades ago.


Water has been on the offensive against New Jersey’s hull for a long time. Good to fight back against the elements.

Szimanski’s video is worth your time if you’re an enthusiast for historic warships. It’s tongue in cheek, and filmed underneath New Jersey’s keel while up on the blocks. He riffs on the Taylor Kitsch movie Battleship (2012). (Spoilers follow.) Battleship is a romp—I recommend it—but there’s no question it is farfetched to the point of whimsy. Some moviegoers may find it impossible to suspend disbelief to the extent necessary to enjoy it. In fact, many did find it impossible. Critics pilloried the flick on Rotten Tomatoes, for whatever that’s worth, while audiences rendered a verdict best interpreted as tepidly upbeat.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/u-s-navy-iowa-class-battleships-could-they-really-make-a-comeback/ar-AA1qsgPp?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=61b0d3a3210949b2a3bccb2860e50541&ei=10
The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth.  George Washington - Farewell Address

Offline rangerrebew

  • TBR Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 176,940
Why don't they bring back the Monitor and the Merrimack while they're at it. :whistle:
The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth.  George Washington - Farewell Address

Online rustynail

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,755
Fill them with foam and get the Chinese to waste ordinance trying to sink them.

Offline MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,931
  • Gender: Female
  • Putin, the low rent Hitler
The Iowa Class are way past their service life.

BUT there could be a place for a heavily armed, heavily armored, modern battleship.

Resistance to Jim Robinson is obedience to God.

Offline DefiantMassRINO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,246
  • Gender: Male
"Political correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it’s entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - Alan Simpson, Frontline Video Interview

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,121
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
With aircraft, battleships are totally obsolete.  Paper covers rock.  As basic as a childhood game on a field to see who goes first, etc.

During WWII, they were virtually insignificant with aircraft carriers running about in the Pacific.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2024, 08:18:47 pm by jafo2010 »

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 61,103
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
With aircraft, battleships are totally obsolete.  Paper covers rock.  As basic as a childhood game on a field to see who goes first, etc.

During WWII, they were virtually insignificant with aircraft carrier running about in the Pacific.
It was the destroyers Hoel, Hermann, and Johnston and the destroyer escorts Dennis, John C Butler, Raymond and Samuel B Roberts who got under the Japanese guns at the Battle of Samar that turned the tide. Thinking they were fighting larger vessels, the Japanese had trouble estimating the range and the smaller vessels were eventually sunk, but succeeded in delaying superior Japanese naval forces in the Leyte Gulf operation and screening most of the fleet carriers present.
The Battle of the Suriago Strait was the last Battleship fight that did not involve significant offensive air power.

Missiles have replaced direct gunfire.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,902
With aircraft, battleships are totally obsolete.  Paper covers rock.  As basic as a childhood game on a field to see who goes first, etc.

During WWII, they were virtually insignificant with aircraft carrier running about in the Pacific.
I would substitute drones instead of aircraft.

Whether from the sky or launched in the sea, 10,000 of them directed simultaneously at a very big target would be impossible to defend against.

“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline jafo2010

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,121
  • Dems-greatest existential threat to USA republic!
Agree with both of you.  Missiles and drones are two more weapon categories that will keep the battleship as a museum.

 :yowsa: :yowsa: :yowsa:

Offline PeteS in CA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,534
At Samar, the DDs, DEs, and aircraft from the Taffys all combined to disrupt Kurita's attack. Every time a DD, DE, or Avenger fired torpedoes, the targeted ship(s) had to turn to evade, keeping that course for the several minutes of the torpedo run(s). An Avenger making a fake run - which did happen - still forced IJN ships to evade. The planes of Taffy 3 attacked with whatever they had, but after some time, appropriately armed planes from Taffy 2 and Taffy 1 and rearmed Taff 3 planes joined the attack. The DDs' and DEs' attacks and sacrifice were heroic and beyond, but air attacks also did damage and contributed to the chaos.

Keep in mind, too, that Kurita had had two ships sunk out from under him, losing charts and plans, and some of his staff scattered by their being rescued by different ships. His decision-making capacity had to have been affected.

Japanese radar was a generation or two behind the USN's best. It was not adequate for gunnery direction. So Kurita's ships weren't going to lose track of Taffy 3, but their gunnery direction was optical and their directors had to recalculate and reset every time a targeted American ship ducked into a rain squall or made a sharp course change (which the DDs and DEs did). At some point Kurita realized that his force was being attacked by many more planes than could come from the task group he was attacking and they were likely to keep doing damage while he did not really know who or where those extra carriers were. He probably realized that the damage he might do would be far less than the the probable total destruction of his force and he decided to save his force for some hypothetical future, better, opportunity.

The Iowas' machinery is so antiquated that finding people who know how operate and maintain it would be extremely difficult at best. Replacement parts for the machinery would be unavailable. The electric generation capacity of the Iowas is not sufficient for modern electronics. The Iowas' propulsion and weapons machinery requires manual operation, which entails a large crew. The cumulative weapons power - Tomahawk missiles, the 16"/50 main guns (for which there are no stocks of shells), and the 5"/38 secondaries - are just not great enough for the cost of the crew and logistics necessary to operate the ships.
I am not and never have been a leftist.

If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline AL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 184
  • Gender: Male
Just wondering, is there still usable ammo for the Battleships.  Those ships are awesome.  With todays recruiting problems manning battleships might not be easy.  Todays Navy has some pretty good hardware especially with the Frigates.  But with todays political climate world-wide seems like another world war isn't too far fetched.  https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/Smileys/default/th_patriot.gif

Offline Timber Rattler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,763
  • Conservative Purist and Patriot
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," "psychopathic POS," "depraved SOB," "Never Trump Moron," "Lazarus," and "sock puppet."

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

Offline MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,931
  • Gender: Female
  • Putin, the low rent Hitler
With aircraft, battleships are totally obsolete.

Eighty year old Iowa Class are obsolete. Agreed.

But a modern heavily armored and stealthy battlewagon with a modern complement of anti-air, anti-sub, and surface-to-surface capabilities would be a powerful presence and a game changer much like the Aegis were when they first deployed.

Food for thought is the battleship Nevada was built in 1911. That's one hundred and thirteen years ago.

She had a distinguished service life but most notably she was stout enough to survive two nuclear attacks.

What modern naval vessel in any navy could survive ONE nuclear attack let alone TWO?

That's why I think there can be a place for a modern version of the battleship.
Resistance to Jim Robinson is obedience to God.

Offline Timber Rattler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,763
  • Conservative Purist and Patriot
That's why I think there can be a place for a modern version of the battleship.

Problem is that the Bethlehem Armor Works and Washington Gun Factory no longer exist, and nobody who knows how to build and operate the battleships is still alive.
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," "psychopathic POS," "depraved SOB," "Never Trump Moron," "Lazarus," and "sock puppet."

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

Offline MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,931
  • Gender: Female
  • Putin, the low rent Hitler
Problem is that the Bethlehem Armor Works and Washington Gun Factory no longer exist, and nobody who knows how to build and operate the OLD battleships is still alive.

Build new ones. And not new versions of old designs but new capital ships with new designs.

We build new frigates and destroyers don't we? Why is it so hard to contemplate building new battleships to carry out the role that capital ships can play in a modern navy?

Like some of these ideas:

https://www.google.com/search?q=modern+battleship+design&sca_esv=806d9f5f2f997acf&sca_upv=1&source=hp&biw=1309&bih=996&ei=5m3kZurbEsHCkPIPhZbP6QQ&iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZuR79i5GnNLz8oIC0haxoLTHhv_24RLS&oq=modern+battleship&gs_lp=EgNpbWciEW1vZGVybiBiYXR0bGVzaGlwKgIIAjIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgARItz1QuQdYoSlwAHgAkAEAmAFVoAGfCKoBAjE3uAEByAEA-AEBigILZ3dzLXdpei1pbWeYAhGgAsgIqAIAwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICBBAAGAPCAg4QABiABBixAxiDARiKBZgDAZIHAjE3oAfdVg&sclient=img&udm=2
« Last Edit: September 13, 2024, 12:54:04 pm by MeganC »
Resistance to Jim Robinson is obedience to God.

Offline Timber Rattler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,763
  • Conservative Purist and Patriot
Because the heavy industrial facilities and know-how required to build battleships are long gone, and can't be easily replaced, if at all.  The steel mills and factories were major capital investments, worth billions in todays dollars.  And the steel mill workers who made the armor and the guns are all dead.
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," "psychopathic POS," "depraved SOB," "Never Trump Moron," "Lazarus," and "sock puppet."

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."  ---George Orwell

Offline MeganC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,931
  • Gender: Female
  • Putin, the low rent Hitler
You are right that the expertise to build the old style of battleship is gone.

I'm saying to make a new design using modern materials that are easily accessible.
Resistance to Jim Robinson is obedience to God.

Online IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,902
I Have Seen the Future of Drone Warfare and It Is Frighteningly Beautiful
Stephen Green | 9:15 AM on September 13, 2024

The story goes that in the 1980s, NASA announced that a Space Shuttle research mission was able to detect former riverbeds under the Sahara desert using space-based radar. Fascinating to be sure, since it had long been thought that the Sahara hadn't always been a desert wasteland. But that civilian space agency doing pure research supposedly had a military audience in mind: war planners in the Kremlin.

The message was: "We have the means to find all of your missile silos and see right into them."

Sadly, an exhaustive search failed to turn up the story's origin but it was probably from an early Tom Clancy novel. The point is that seemingly innocent new civilian technology can also serve as a preview of future military applications.

With that in mind, watch this light show that recently took place in Shenzhen, China.
https://twitter.com/CGMeifangZhang/status/1834049931537170441?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1834275373322043709%7Ctwgr%5E49027980d8c8c9f29443b0d7312e04f4c67284f0%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcms.pjmedia.com%2Fposts%2F4932482%3FtitlecategoryIdsubscriptiondatePublishedincludeBody%3DfalsestatuspostIdrouteIdpageIndex%3D0pageSize%3D30postTypeId%3D1total%3D203063
https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2024/09/13/i-have-seen-the-future-of-drone-warfare-and-it-is-frighteningly-beautiful-n4932482
« Last Edit: September 14, 2024, 12:31:06 pm by IsailedawayfromFR »
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Online IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,902
Here's how to deploy drones successfully


https://youtu.be/VYWWdiCO-Rg
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 61,103
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Here's how to deploy drones successfully


https://youtu.be/VYWWdiCO-Rg
It appeared every shot missed (above the drone).

Some changes in technique are called for, namely correcting aim by point of impact.
"Kntucky windage"
Simply enough, when shooting downhill the gun will consistently shoot higher than the point of aim if the gun or optic is 'zeroed' on a level trajectory.

You have to aim below the target in order to hit it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online IsailedawayfromFR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,902
It appeared every shot missed (above the drone).

Some changes in technique are called for, namely correcting aim by point of impact.
"Kntucky windage"
Simply enough, when shooting downhill the gun will consistently shoot higher than the point of aim if the gun or optic is 'zeroed' on a level trajectory.

You have to aim below the target in order to hit it.
That is an aiming problem.

What I also note is

1. more guns need to be fired at it to increase chance of success in hitting it.
2. different type of gun may be required to increase projectiles number at it.

Even if successfully hit, what causes the explosive to detonate anyway?  Seems a direct hit not the vessel but upon the criitcal explosive component it is carrying is the requisite.
“You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing.” Thomas Sowell

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 61,103
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
That is an aiming problem.

What I also note is

1. more guns need to be fired at it to increase chance of success in hitting it.
2. different type of gun may be required to increase projectiles number at it.

Even if successfully hit, what causes the explosive to detonate anyway?  Seems a direct hit not the vessel but upon the criitcal explosive component it is carrying is the requisite.
Granted, painting it with an M2 would have made a difference. I would aim for the control package or propulsion, trying to make it dead in the water, and it could be more easily finished off.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis