Trump blames NATO talks for provoking russia into Ukraine war

[kevindavis007]

Former President of the United States and Republican presidential candidate, Donald Trump, stated that in his opinion, the war erupted because Ukraine ignored Russia's warnings about the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO.

Trump was a guest on Thursday's podcast "All In" hosted by financier and Elon Musk's associate David Sacks, who is known for his pro-Russian views. The Republican candidate stated that Ukraine joining the North Atlantic Alliance would be "madness."

During the conversation, Trump was asked if he would agree to exclude the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO as part of the negotiations to end the war in that country. In response, the former president suggested that the issue of Ukraine's potential accession to NATO might have provoked Russia to take aggressive actions against Ukraine.

"Russia does not want NATO and its forces at its border"

- For 20 years, I've heard that NATO is a real problem for Russia. I've heard it for a long time, and I think that is truly the reason why this war started - Trump said. He accused the current U.S. President, Joe Biden, of causing the conflict with his "provocative" statements during the escalating tensions before the Russian invasion.

Read More: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-blames-nato-talks-for-provoking-russia-into-ukraine-war/ar-BB1oFsK4

I just wish Trump would shut his mouth. Doesn't he realize that the STATE OF ALASKA (which is part of America), is right next to Russia? So technically NATO is already near Russia! Also, as usual, when it comes to Russia, he is an F**kin idiot.

[libertybele]

I have to agree with Trump on this one - and as I have pointed out in other posts, Biden's verbal predictions that Putin was going to escalate the war and giving Z $$$ didn't help!

- For 20 years, I've heard that NATO is a real problem for Russia. I've heard it for a long time, and I think that is truly the reason why this war started - Trump said. He accused the current U.S. President, Joe Biden, of causing the conflict with his "provocative" statements during the escalating tensions before the Russian invasion.

[kevindavis007]

I have to agree with Trump on this one - and as I have pointed out in other posts, Biden's verbal predictions that Putin was going to escalate the war and giving Z $$$ didn't help!

- For 20 years, I've heard that NATO is a real problem for Russia. I've heard it for a long time, and I think that is truly the reason why this war started - Trump said. He accused the current U.S. President, Joe Biden, of causing the conflict with his "provocative" statements during the escalating tensions before the Russian invasion.

Of course you do.

[Hoodat]

Russia is the aggressor - not Ukraine.

[Hoodat]

I have to agree with Trump on this one - and as I have pointed out in other posts, Biden's verbal predictions that Putin was going to escalate the war and giving Z $$$ didn't help!

That's on Biden, not on NATO, not on Ukraine.  If anything, NATO has stepped to the plate just as Trump urged them to do.  Their defense budgets are increasing.  Their share of actual military aid to Ukraine is ever increasing, while US aid primarily consists of cash being paid out to Ukraine's neighbors with what little military aid sent is in the form of decades old supply stocks (which are then charged back to the taxpayer at full price while the money is spent elsewhere).

As for your claim about giving Zelenskiy money, that simply isn't true.  In the year leading up to Russia's invasion, Biden pledged military aid - aid that was not delivered until many weeks after Russian troops landing on Hostomel airport right outside of Kyiv.

The only reason this war continues is because Russia continues to attack.  If Russia withdrew from Ukraine today, the war would end today.  It is really that simple.  And if Biden wanted to make that happen, he would remove all restrictions on US oil production and encourage opening the spigot to drive down the price of oil.  THAT ALONE would convince Russia to withdraw.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I have to agree with Trump on this one - and as I have pointed out in other posts, Biden's verbal predictions that Putin was going to escalate the war and giving Z $$$ didn't help!

- For 20 years, I've heard that NATO is a real problem for Russia. I've heard it for a long time, and I think that is truly the reason why this war started - Trump said. He accused the current U.S. President, Joe Biden, of causing the conflict with his "provocative" statements during the escalating tensions before the Russian invasion.

No offense, but I think that is a line of pure Russian propaganda contradicted by facts.  And Trump uttering that little bit of Russian propaganda has pushed me right back into a firm "ain't voting for President" position.  It's just a lame excuse by Putin to seize lands he covets.

I'm sure many of the Russian people may have believed the stated fear of western invasion, because they've been fed it as a useful line of propaganda by their own government. Gullible westerners have accepted and repeated that as well. But apart from being irrational, it is clear from the actions of their government that the Russian leadership/Putin himself did not share that fear:

First, Ukraine was nowhere near being admitted to NATO -- wasn't even on a timeline of any kind. And if it ever got to the point when there was the typical years-long timeline set, Russia knows that it takes a long time for that to happen, with lots of debates, benchmarks, etc., and that any one single member state could stop it. So the alleged "fear" of Ukrainian ascension to NATO was wildly premature.

Second, if Russia truly was (even if irrationally) afraid of invasion from the West, then why risk provoking the feared NATO into a military confrontation by invading Ukraine?? Russia's invasion of Ukraine actually strengthened NATO. Keeping Sweden and Finland out of NATO has been a major strategic goal of Russia for many decades, but this war caused that exact thing to happen. It further triggered significant rearmament by member states in the exact alliance Russia supposedly feared. That is not the action of a nation afraid of western invasion.

And third, Russia was perhaps three years away from having most major NATO powers completely dependent upon Russian fossil fuels. That alone would have been yet another guarantee (in addition to their massive stockpile of nuclear weapons) that Russia wouldn't be invaded from the West, and Russian leadership knew that. But they choose to give up that additional guarantee of no western invasion to invade Ukraine. Again, emphatically not the action of a country motivated by fear of conflict with the West.

The truth is not that Russia invaded Ukraine because it was afraid of NATO - it invaded Ukraine because it wasn't afraid of NATO.

Trump, as usual, has his head up his a** on an important issue because he doesn't bother to get informed before shooting off his mouth.

[Hoodat]

First, Ukraine was nowhere near being admitted to NATO -- wasn't even on a timeline of any kind. And if it ever got to the point when there was the typical years-long timeline set, Russia knows that it takes a long time for that to happen, with lots of debates, benchmarks, etc., and that any one single member state could stop it. So the alleged "fear" of Ukrainian ascension to NATO was wildly premature.

Not only that, Zelenskiy announced to the world back in Jan 2022 that he had accepted that Ukraine would not join NATO and that it would remain in a state of neutrality.  Several weeks later, he would see Russian BMPs clogging the roads just north of Kyiv.  So no, this whole propaganda bullshit argument about the West being responsible for Russia's invasion is just that - bullshit.  I am sick of hearing it repeated for years now, with those posting it (again) totally deaf to the actual facts at the time.

[libertybele]

Not only that, Zelenskiy announced to the world back in Jan 2022 that he had accepted that Ukraine would not join NATO and that it would remain in a state of neutrality.  Several weeks later, he would see Russian BMPs clogging the roads just north of Kyiv.  So no, this whole propaganda bullshit argument about the West being responsible for Russia's invasion is just that - bullshit.  I am sick of hearing it repeated for years now, with those posting it (again) totally deaf to the actual facts at the time.

But since 2022, Zelenskyy has pushed for acceptance into NATO.

Ukraine’s push for NATO membership is rooted in its European past – and its future

During a recent meeting with the nation’s diplomatic corps, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy gave Ukraine’s ambassadors their marching orders for the rest of the year: Work to help secure Ukraine’s membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the European Union. Zelenskyy also told the ambassadors to focus on helping Ukraine secure bilateral agreements for security guarantees between Ukraine and individual G7 countries, including the United States.

“The task of ambassadors to NATO countries is to work to consolidate all the capitals of the Alliance around common security priorities,” he said. “It is in Ukraine that security for our continent and for the rules-based international order as a whole is being gained, and this deserves political and legal recognition by all our allies.”

Zelenskyy held the August 2023 meeting with ambassadors three weeks after leaving the NATO summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, without the timetable for Ukraine to join the alliance that he wanted.............

https://theconversation.com/ukraines-push-for-nato-membership-is-rooted-in-its-european-past-and-its-future-209839

[Hoodat]

@libertybele

Here it is.  Again.

https://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,462610.msg2634507.html#msg2634507

[Maj. Bill Martin]

But since 2022, Zelenskyy has pushed for acceptance into NATO.

Ukraine’s push for NATO membership is rooted in its European past – and its future

During a recent meeting with the nation’s diplomatic corps, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy gave Ukraine’s ambassadors their marching orders for the rest of the year: Work to help secure Ukraine’s membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the European Union. Zelenskyy also told the ambassadors to focus on helping Ukraine secure bilateral agreements for security guarantees between Ukraine and individual G7 countries, including the United States.

“The task of ambassadors to NATO countries is to work to consolidate all the capitals of the Alliance around common security priorities,” he said. “It is in Ukraine that security for our continent and for the rules-based international order as a whole is being gained, and this deserves political and legal recognition by all our allies.”

Zelenskyy held the August 2023 meeting with ambassadors three weeks after leaving the NATO summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, without the timetable for Ukraine to join the alliance that he wanted.............

https://theconversation.com/ukraines-push-for-nato-membership-is-rooted-in-its-european-past-and-its-future-209839

Doesn't impact either 1) the reality that NATO membership would still have been many years down the road, if ever and 2) all the other reasons that the alleged fear of the Russian leadership of an invasion by the West was complete b.s..

The weirdest part of this argument is that whenever this war does end, Ukraine eventually being admitted to NATO has become far more likely as a consequence of this invasion.

[Hoodat]

But since 2022, Zelenskyy has pushed for acceptance into NATO.

Ukraine’s push for NATO membership is rooted in its European past – and its future

During a recent meeting with the nation’s diplomatic corps, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy gave Ukraine’s ambassadors their marching orders for the rest of the year: Work to help secure Ukraine’s membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the European Union. Zelenskyy also told the ambassadors to focus on helping Ukraine secure bilateral agreements for security guarantees between Ukraine and individual G7 countries, including the United States.

“The task of ambassadors to NATO countries is to work to consolidate all the capitals of the Alliance around common security priorities,” he said. “It is in Ukraine that security for our continent and for the rules-based international order as a whole is being gained, and this deserves political and legal recognition by all our allies.”

Zelenskyy held the August 2023 meeting with ambassadors three weeks after leaving the NATO summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, without the timetable for Ukraine to join the alliance that he wanted.............

So you're saying that Russia invaded Ukraine in Feb 2022 because Zelenskiy pushed for NATO membership AFTER the invasion?  Seriously?

[Maj. Bill Martin]

So you're saying that Russia invaded Ukraine in Feb 2022 because Zelenskiy pushed for NATO membership AFTER the invasion?  Seriously?

That's exactly what she's saying.

Russian propaganda on this issue has been extraordinarily effective, and a lot of Americans have bought into it because most don't take the time to actually sit down and analyze the relevant facts.  And, you have "leaders" like Trump who swallow that line of propaganda and repeat it.  If you try to explain the relevant facts, people will ignore them because it is too much to read.

So...deliberately chosen ignorance.

[240B]

Biden/Obama started the war. When Russia had thousands of troops and armor on the border of Ukraine, Biden/Obama said, "a small incursion" would not be a big deal. That was like waving a green flag to Putin, and Biden/Obama knew that at the time.

I do not know all the behind the scenes details, but for some reason, whatever reason?, Biden/Obama wanted this war.

[libertybele]

The truth is not that Russia invaded Ukraine because it was afraid of NATO - it invaded Ukraine because it wasn't afraid of NATO.

Trump, as usual, has his head up his a** on an important issue because he doesn't bother to get informed before shooting off his mouth.

Again, I look at it as Biden ran his mouth predicting Putin's aggression before he escalated the war and was giving Z assistance almost since he took office.  What was Putin to think?  Perhaps Putin isn't afraid of NATO, but he would be foolish not to be afraid of NATO if Ukraine was accepted into the fold. 

Was Putin the aggressor in this instance?  Yes, but IMHO the U.S. didn't exactly try to keep him at a distance. Putin also sees how weak Joe really is.

Secondly, I don't think Trump has his head up his azz in this case; we didn't have the escalation from Putin and money pouring into Ukraine like we do now under Biden.

[libertybele]

Biden/Obama started the war. When Russia had thousands of troops and armor on the border of Ukraine, Biden/Obama said, "a small incursion" would not be a big deal. That was like waving a green flag to Putin, and Biden/Obama knew that at the time.

I do not know all the behind the scenes details, but for some reason, whatever reason?, Biden/Obama wanted this war.

It's a money maker.  How much money have the Biden's and Obama's siphoned off of this war???  When Trump questioned where all the $$ was going (Burisma/Hunter as well) that's about the time when they decided to impeach him.

[Hoodat]

Perhaps Putin isn't afraid of NATO, but he would be foolish not to be afraid of NATO if Ukraine was accepted into the fold.

You do realize that Biden was blocking Ukraine's entry into NATO, right?  Do you also realize that it was clear to everyone including Putin that Ukraine would not be joining NATO before Putin invaded?  All Putin needed was that rejection.  If any possibility of Ukraine joining NATO had remained in late 2021 or early 2022, Putin would not have invaded.  He got the green light in Jan 2022 when Ukraine's entry was rejected thanks to the US.

Secondly, I don't think Trump has his head up his azz in this case; we didn't have the escalation from Putin and money pouring into Ukraine like we do now under Biden.

Having his head up his ass is the only explanation I can come up with for him being this ignorant of world events.

[Hoodat]

It's a money maker.  How much money have the Biden's and Obama's siphoned off of this war???  When Trump questioned where all the $$ was going (Burisma/Hunter as well) that's about the time when they decided to impeach him.

100% correct.  Yet it has nothing to do with Russia's choice to invade Ukraine.

[libertybele]

So you're saying that Russia invaded Ukraine in Feb 2022 because Zelenskiy pushed for NATO membership AFTER the invasion?  Seriously?

No.  The comment was made; Not only that, Zelenskiy announced to the world back in Jan 2022 that he had accepted that Ukraine would not join NATO . All I am saying is that in '23 Z did ask for acceptance into NATO.

Yes, I understand why Z changed his mind, but I can't help but think that perhaps encouraging Putin to ramp up the war was a way to get Ukraine into NATO?   At least it's clearly been a money maker.

Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the extensive knowledge of this war as some in here - but I have seen the videos of Beck's research pre-Zelenskyy that leaves me with a whole lot of questions as to the motivation and involvement of the U.S. (Hunter/Biden/Obama) -- follow the money. I also have read bits and pieces of the history that goes back decades of the Russo/Ukraine war.  Enter Zelenskyy the war is escalated and the amount of $$ that we've poured into Ukraine is multi billions with a promise of even more.  It's hard to keep track of the exact total that we have given them to date.

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-money-has-the-us-given-ukraine-since-russias-invasion/
https://www.crfb.org/blogs/congressionally-approved-ukraine-aid-totals-175-billion
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-mike-johnson-ukraine-israel-b72aed9b195818735d24363f2bc34ea4
https://www.heritage.org/global-politics/commentary/yes-america-the-biggest-military-donor-ukraine

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Biden/Obama started the war. When Russia had thousands of troops and armor on the border of Ukraine, Biden/Obama said, "a small incursion" would not be a big deal. That was like waving a green flag to Putin, and Biden/Obama knew that at the time.

I do not know all the behind the scenes details, but for some reason, whatever reason?, Biden/Obama wanted this war.

Stupid comment by Biden, unquestionably.  But that still doesn't make it their fault that the war started -- that is on Putin.

And I don't believe that either Biden or Obama wanted this war.  Biden is just an idiot who has always said stupid things.  I believe he was trying to tamp down the possibility of a large-scale war by saying we wouldn't do much if it was only a minor incursion.  I don't think he believed the Russians would essentially ignore that qualifier and try to take over the entire country.

So...I think the Russians were already resolved to do exactly what they did before that Biden ever made that comment.   They certainly had staged troops for something much more than a minor incursion before he made that comment.  Doesn't make it any less stupid, but it didn't cause the war, and it didn't result in it being expanded.

[libertybele]

100% correct.  Yet it has nothing to do with Russia's choice to invade Ukraine.

I am not confident of that.  Was Russia threatened with Ukraine's acceptance into NATO if he didn't comply with what the US or the west wanted??  I question that.  Putin isn't stupid by any means.

[libertybele]

Stupid comment by Biden, unquestionably.  But that still doesn't make it their fault that the war started -- that is on Putin.

And I don't believe that either Biden or Obama wanted this war.  Biden is just an idiot who has always said stupid things.  I believe he was trying to tamp down the possibility of a large-scale war by saying we wouldn't do much if it was only a minor incursion.  I don't think he believed the Russians would essentially ignore that qualifier and try to take over the entire country.

So...I think the Russians were already resolved to do exactly what they did before that Biden ever made that comment.   They certainly had staged troops for something much more than a minor incursion before he made that comment.  Doesn't make it any less stupid, but it didn't cause the war, and it didn't result in it being expanded.

Well, I guess now it boils down to, I trust Trump on this issue more so than I do Biden, or Obama and again, we didn't see this escalation under Trump, nor did we pour billions more into Ukraine like we're doing now.

Secondly, I don't think Biden is cognitive enough to make decisions on Ukraine; his handlers are telling him what to do.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Again, I look at it as Biden ran his mouth predicting Putin's aggression before he escalated the war and was giving Z assistance almost since he took office.  What was Putin to think?  Perhaps Putin isn't afraid of NATO, but he would be foolish not to be afraid of NATO if Ukraine was accepted into the fold. 

Was Putin the aggressor in this instance?  Yes, but IMHO the U.S. didn't exactly try to keep him at a distance. Putin also sees how weak Joe really is.

Secondly, I don't think Trump has his head up his azz in this case; we didn't have the escalation from Putin and money pouring into Ukraine like we do now under Biden.

Trump has his head up his ass in saying that potential NATO expansion was the reason Putin invaded Ukraine.  It was not.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I am not confident of that.  Was Russia threatened with Ukraine's acceptance into NATO if he didn't comply with what the US or the west wanted??

Exactly how would that have "threatened" Russia?  NATO was a military shell.  This point keeps getting ignored but it is critical. 

And on top of that, there was no chance - zero - that Ukraine was going to be joining NATO within the next few years.  So why invade Ukraine and reinvigorate NATO over something that might not ever happen?

I question that.  Putin isn't stupid by any means.

And that's exactly the point.  Putin is not stupid, and knew perfectly well that NATO presented no military threat to Russia.  There isn't even the ghost of an argument that it did.

[libertybele]

Trump has his head up his ass in saying that potential NATO expansion was the reason Putin invaded Ukraine.  It was not.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because in part, yes I believe the threat of NATO expansion was one of the reasons Putin escalated the ongoing war. Perhaps not the sole reason, but it did provoke him; even if it was in a small way.

[Hoodat]

But since 2022, Zelenskyy has pushed for acceptance into NATO.

Again, Zelenskiy pushing for NATO entry AFTER the invasion is not cause for the invasion.  Of course Zelenskiy would reach out to NATO with over 100,000 Russian troops on its soil committing war atrocities.  Anyone in their right mind would be seeking allies against such unwarranted bullying aggression.