Marine Infantry veteran says enlisted shouldn’t become officers — mayhem ensues

[rangerrebew]

Marine Infantry veteran says enlisted shouldn’t become officers — mayhem ensues
Veterans on social media widely rejected the idea

BY JEFF SCHOGOL | PUBLISHED NOV 27, 2023 7:30 PM EST
 
Marine veteran Ivan Snook set social media aflame on Sunday after posting that the U.S. military should stop allowing enlisted service members to become officers.

“Mustangs erode the esteem, legitimacy and distinct culture of the officer corps like merchants marrying into the aristocracy,” Snook posted on X. “Nevertheless, we are intent on lowering the standards and reducing military service to being ‘just a job’ asap.”


“Mustang” is slang for a U.S. military officer who commissioned after serving as an enlisted service member.

Judging from the reaction that Snook received when he posted his theory about mustangs on X, it’s fair to say that many other veterans — including longtime enlisted, officers and mustangs who have been both — disagree with him.

One retired Marine colonel posted that mustangs are respected within the Marine Corps because they’ve already proven themselves. Others posted that they served with great officers who were prior enlisted service members. And one user wrote that he would rather serve under a mustang or warrant officer than a military service academy graduate.

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/us-military-enlisted-officers-mustangs/

[rangerrebew]

I served on a Carrier under a CO who was a mustang and a CO who was from the Academy.  It's a small sampling, I know, but I'd take the mustang any day of the week.

[Bigun]

I served on a Carrier under a CO who was a mustang and a CO who was from the Academy.  It's a small sampling, I know, but I'd take the mustang any day of the week.

The writer of this article is completely FOS! I personally know several West Point graduates who got their appointments BECAUSE of their enlisted service. I myself received such an appointment but never attended because I was already married before the paperwork caught up with me.

[sneakypete]

The writer of this article is completely FOS! I personally know several West Point graduates who got their appointments BECAUSE of their enlisted service.

@Bigun

I used to use "I wanna volunteer for West Point" with my SGM every time he wanted to assign me to some clerk n jerk duty. The last time was when he said he was going to  deny my request for a transfer to VN.

Apparently,there is/was a MASSIVE amount of paper work involved in applications for transfers to WP.

[Bigun]

@Bigun

I used to use "I wanna volunteer for West Point" with my SGM every time he wanted to assign me to some clerk n jerk duty. The last time was when he said he was going to  deny my request for a transfer to VN.

Apparently,there is/was a MASSIVE amount of paper work involved in applications for transfers to WP.

I don't know about any of that. All I know is that my C/O in Vietnam made the appointment, but the paperwork didn't catch up with me until a couple of months after I was married. @sneakypete

[sneakypete]

I don't know about any of that. All I know is that my C/O in Vietnam made the appointment, but the paperwork didn't catch up with me until a couple of months after I was married. @sneakypete

@Bigun

I must have used that threat at least 3 times,and never once  followed through. I  had NO desire to be an officer,and the SGM knew it.

For some odd reason,I really got along good with  SGM's. Actually got along good with  officers too,as long as they were SF officers.

SF wasn't really an organization that paid much  attention to rank. I was once assigned to fill sandbags with a Captain. If something has to be done,whoever is free would get the job. Had Captains drive to the airport several times to pick me up after being off partying with friends during a standdown.

I knew of at least 2 Captains in FOB-2 that were radio operators on recon teams led by E-6's,and make no mistake about it,the E-6 WAS the Recon Team Leader. Generally speaking,they would do this until they got enough  experience on the ground to lead their own teams.

Yes,even the Army could make sense occasionally.

[Bigun]

@Bigun

I must have used that threat at least 3 times,and never once  followed through. I  had NO desire to be an officer,and the SGM knew it.

For some odd reason,I really got along good with  SGM's. Actually got along good with  officers too,as long as they were SF officers.

SF wasn't really an organization that paid much  attention to rank. I was once assigned to fill sandbags with a Captain. If something has to be done,whoever is free would get the job. Had Captains drive to the airport several times to pick me up after being off partying with friends during a standdown.

I knew of at least 2 Captains in FOB-2 that were radio operators on recon teams led by E-6's,and make no mistake about it,the E-6 WAS the Recon Team Leader. Generally speaking,they would do this until they got enough  experience on the ground to lead their own teams.

Yes,even the Army could make sense occasionally.

I had already had plenty of opportunities to go to OCS and become an officer and a gentleman but an appointment to the point was a totally different deal. The Army wound up offering to send me to VMI instead, with a year of prep school included because I had been out of school for some time by then.  I declined the offer (probably the biggest mistake of my life) because I hand seen enough of the Army under LBJ. @sneakypete

[sneakypete]

I had already had plenty of opportunities to go to OCS and become an officer and a gentleman but an appointment to the point was a totally different deal. The Army wound up offering to send me to VMI instead, with a year of prep school included because I had been out of school for some time by then. I declined the offer (probably the biggest mistake of my life) because I hand seen enough of the Army under LBJ. @sneakypete

@Bigun

Don't be so sure that was a mistake.

The first time Col Abt on Okie tried to get me a commission was to put in for a slot at West Point. I asked the other officers I knew about this,what to expect if I  accept,what life as an Officer was really like,etc,etc,etc,and got mixed reviews. Yeah,there WERE benefits,but there was also a price to pay that enlisted swine didn't have to put up with.

I did agree to go to OCS in Georgia right before I left Okie. The plan was to get me a commission,send me back to Okie,and then deploy me to VN with  a TDY A-Team to "learn the ropes on the ground". Unfortunately,or unfortunately,for some reason the paperwork wasn't approved before I got orders to go back to Bragg. I immediately  put in for a transfer to the 5th SFG in VN as soon as I got there,and a few months later was on my way back to Asia,as  low-ranking enlisted swine. Which did NOT bother me at all. You  could walk all around anywhere with Spec-4 patches on your sleeves,and it would never seem to occur to anyone in the regular army that you weren't supposed to be there. Which could result in another Jeep for the company,swaps of guns for food,etc,etc,etc.

Whereas if you were a SSG E-6 or higher and wandering  around in a regular army compound,somebody is going to want to know why you are there and what you are doing.

This was one of the reason I stole a USAF fatigue jacket off of a clothes line when I was in the Dominican Republic.The army was there for months and still eating C-rations headed in a big pot of hot water,and the USAF was feeding their people hot meals that were actually  cooked. Given that the USAF had flight crews coming in and out every day from all over the place,nobody paid much  attention to a stranger standing in the  chow line.

Things like that add up.

[Bigun]

@Bigun

Don't be so sure that was a mistake.

The first time Col Abt on Okie tried to get me a commission was to put in for a slot at West Point. I asked the other officers I knew about this,what to expect if I  accept,what life as an Officer was really like,etc,etc,etc,and got mixed reviews. Yeah,there WERE benefits,but there was also a price to pay that enlisted swine didn't have to put up with.

I did agree to go to OCS in Georgia right before I left Okie. The plan was to get me a commission,send me back to Okie,and then deploy me to VN with  a TDY A-Team to "learn the ropes on the ground". Unfortunately,or unfortunately,for some reason the paperwork wasn't approved before I got orders to go back to Bragg. I immediately  put in for a transfer to the 5th SFG in VN as soon as I got there,and a few months later was on my way back to Asia,as  low-ranking enlisted swine. Which did NOT bother me at all. You  could walk all around anywhere with Spec-4 patches on your sleeves,and it would never seem to occur to anyone in the regular army that you weren't supposed to be there. Which could result in another Jeep for the company,swaps of guns for food,etc,etc,etc.

Whereas if you were a SSG E-6 or higher and wandering  around in a regular army compound,somebody is going to want to know why you are there and what you are doing.

This was one of the reason I stole a USAF fatigue jacket off of a clothes line when I was in the Dominican Republic.The army was there for months and still eating C-rations headed in a big pot of hot water,and the USAF was feeding their people hot meals that were actually  cooked. Given that the USAF had flight crews coming in and out every day from all over the place,nobody paid much  attention to a stranger standing in the  chow line.

Things like that add up.

I always found that I could go almost anywhere I wanted if I carried a clipboard, walked fast, and looked worried. @sneakypete

[Free Vulcan]

Sorry but the military isn't immune to the rules of any good managed organization. We're suffering the same problem in the corporate world right now - promoting people with degrees but no ground level experience and they can't lead their way out of a wet paper bag.

[sneakypete]

I always found that I could go almost anywhere I wanted if I carried a clipboard, walked fast, and looked worried. @sneakypete

@Bigun

Yup!

NOBODY wanted to be a part of a crisis that involved paperwork,commissioned officers,etc,etc because  sure as hell,whatever went wrong is going to be determined to be the fault of the lowest-ranking enlisted swine involved.

This was never a problem in SF,though.

The downside to mingling with  the  regular army was you had to be careful about what you  said and did around the RA types. Seems like every time I got around those  folks,somebody  was always trying  to  stab somebody  else in the back so THEY could look good and get promoted.

This was PROBABLY because it was so hard to make E-5 and above in the regular army due  to  a VERY limited number of NCO slots.

In a SF line unit,the  lowest rank there was an E-5,with the  exceptions of cooks and other  necessary support people. Seems like an awful lot of them ended up  volunteering for  SF Training Group so they could get out of that mess and get promoted,too. Which could also be a bad thing if they brought the "regular army mindset" with them when they came. Most that tried that got booted  out of Training Group long before graduation because in SF,EVERYBODY co-operates in order to get whatever needs to be done,done. Unlike regular units,there is no "make  busy work". If you don't actually have something to do,the team sgt will always look around for some class he can send you  to in order to make you more useful. If he can't find anything,you just take off for the day and do whatever pleases you.  Providing,of course,the team sgt knows how to get in immediate touch with  you  in case of a mission alert.

The truth is the Regular Army guys that transferred over to SF were one of our biggest assets both because they had "connections" with regular units that were useful,and because there is no way  of predicting when you will need some obscure bit of knowledge that  is not normally  related to your "New Job",but  the "regular army" guy  that volunteered for SF used to deal with  daily.

There really is no such thing as "useless knowledge".