Author Topic: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire  (Read 10634 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2023, 06:35:50 pm »
With loans, more assets as collateral, gets you lower rates because the risk is lower. So even if you pay back the loan you still benefitted from the fake asset values (if they are fake). They are ill gotten gains. So there is material gain from doing this. But, normally it is the lenders responsibility to determine what assets are worth. On the other hand, if you hide debt/liabilities from the lender that is a crime.

But still, if the contract was conducted accordingly, and with honor, then there has been no harm... Or all lawyers and used car dealers would be at the bottom of the ocean... and while that might be a favorable outcome in most cases (present company excepted all around), lawyers and used car salesmen remain.

Offline mystery-ak

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2023, 06:37:37 pm »
 Trump could lose control of famed properties under New York fraud ruling
by Zach Schonfeld and Ella Lee - 09/27/23 3:06 PM ET

A major loss Tuesday in former President Trump’s New York civil fraud case raises the potential for him to lose control of some of his famed properties and ability to do business in the state.

A New York judge ruled Tuesday that state Attorney General Letitia James (D) proved core elements of her far-reaching case, narrowing the scope of the trial that is set to begin as soon as Monday.

The decision finds Trump, two of his adult children — Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr. — and their businesses liable for fraud after James’s office sued them last September. They have denied any wrongdoing and vowed to appeal.

Here are five things to know about Trump’s big loss:

more
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4226139-trump-could-lose-control-of-famed-properties-under-new-york-fraud-ruling/
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2023, 06:40:03 pm »
That's because the policy behind Executive Law §63(12) is to police people who are persistently engaged in conduct that could give rise to fraud.  It's not an odd distinction, it's similar to setting a speed limit on the highway and ticketing or arresting people who violate that speed limit, whether or not they actually caused any harm through their speeding.

It's also similar to laws that make it illegal to engage in false advertising - those statutes typically apply regardless of whether or not anyone was actually harmed by an instance of false advertising.

Thank you. Your analogy sufficed... So now then, is this a sticky wicket, or is it likely to be overturned? And how is the appeal likely to be laid (grounds)?

Offline 240B

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2023, 06:45:46 pm »

I’ll second that

At first glance, this seems like a political witchhunt. But when it’s explained by @Kamaji, it becomes more in focus
Apparently this Judge valuated Mara Lago at $18 million, which is apparently what HE would pay for it. Independent valuations are over $300 million. It seems that this Judge is deciding 'fraud' based on his own personal opinion, not based on a free and fair marketplace.

It is on appeal.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2023, 06:47:47 pm »
Thank you. Your analogy sufficed... So now then, is this a sticky wicket, or is it likely to be overturned? And how is the appeal likely to be laid (grounds)?

Since it was a decision on a motion for summary judgment, the first tack will be to demonstrate that there is a disputed matter of fact that must be tried to a fact-finder.  One could also try to argue that the judge misapplied the law as it exists (unlikely), or that the controlling precedents are wrong and that something more than just a persistent course of conduct of issuing “imaginative” statements of financial condition is required for a person’s conduct to come within the statute.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2023, 06:49:45 pm »
Apparently this Judge valuated Mara Lago at $18 million, which is apparently what HE would pay for it. Independent valuations are over $300 million. It seems that this Judge is deciding 'fraud' based on his own personal opinion, not based on a free and fair marketplace.

It is on appeal.

The judge didn’t pull a valuation out of thin air or base it on his own subjective sense of value.  That would have been a value drawn from the documentary evidence adduced by the attorney general and already admitted into court.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2023, 07:06:53 pm »
Since it was a decision on a motion for summary judgment, the first tack will be to demonstrate that there is a disputed matter of fact that must be tried to a fact-finder.  One could also try to argue that the judge misapplied the law as it exists (unlikely), or that the controlling precedents are wrong and that something more than just a persistent course of conduct of issuing “imaginative” statements of financial condition is required for a person’s conduct to come within the statute.

So factual disputation is the likely forward play - Thanks...  :beer:

Offline 240B

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2023, 07:15:09 pm »
The judge didn’t pull a valuation out of thin air or base it on his own subjective sense of value.  That would have been a value drawn from the documentary evidence adduced by the attorney general and already admitted into court.
Whether the Judge or some paid third party, somebody did pull valuations out of thin air, and grossly undervalued.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2023, 07:24:43 pm »
A New York judge on Tuesday found former President Trump liable for fraud, handing a major legal victory to New York Attorney General Letitia James (D) in her sprawling civil case over Trump’s businesses.

They must have uncovered more dirt on Biden yesterday.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2023, 07:37:30 pm »
Whether the Judge or some paid third party, somebody did pull valuations out of thin air, and grossly undervalued.

Hardly.  Read the opinion and find out where the valuation came from.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2023, 07:44:33 pm »
It seems that this Judge is deciding 'fraud' based on his own personal opinion, not based on a free and fair marketplace.

It also seems that this judge is deciding 'fraud' without there being any victim of fraud.
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Online DefiantMassRINO

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2023, 07:53:17 pm »
How many other real estate developers play the same game?

Trump can't be the only one in New York.
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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline libertybele

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2023, 08:27:35 pm »
How many other real estate developers play the same game?

Trump can't be the only one in New York.

Probably not, but the only one that they are interested in holding responsible is Trump.

Online corbe

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2023, 08:56:39 pm »
   "I'm a successful Businessman, worth $10B; I will not be beholden to Special Interests in Washington DC, I will Self-Finance my campaign."    :rolling:
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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2023, 10:33:41 pm »
John LeFevre
@JohnLeFevre
The New York judge says Mar-a-Lago is worth between "$18 and $27.6 million."
A nearby vacant lot (2.3 acres) is for sale on Zillow for $200 million.
Mar-a-Lago sits on 17 acres, with waterfront on both sides.
Is the judge licensed to evaluate real estate? Is the judge a broker?
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2023, 08:36:25 am »
How many other real estate developers play the same game?

Trump can't be the only one in New York.

Most real estate developers don't consider "truthful hyperbole" to be the mainstay of their business practices; Trump did and still does.  A more honest word for "truthful hyperbole" is lying.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2023, 08:50:31 am »
It also seems that this judge is deciding 'fraud' without there being any victim of fraud.

No, he's not.  Reading the opinion itself would prove quite edifying.  The statute under which the Attorney General has sued Trump does not require that there be a "victim of fraud", it requires only that the defendant have persistently engaged in conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to decieve, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud.  People v. Gen. Elec. Co."  See page 18 of the opinion under the heading "Materiality".

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2023, 08:58:46 am »
Is the judge licensed to evaluate real estate? Is the judge a broker?

Three words:

Read.

The.

Opinion.


The judge derived that valuation from the evidence submitted by the NY attorney general, specifically, the Palm Beach County Assessor's valuation for property tax purposes.  See page 26 of the opinion; to wit: "From 2011-2021, the Palm Beach County Assessor appraised the market value of Mar-a-Lago at between $18 million and $27.6 million.  NYSCEF Doc. No. 905."

In the absence of other credible valuation reports, and in the absence of any reason to believe that the property assessor is valuing on some other basis other than a good-faith fair market value basis, the valuations provided by a local property tax assessor are generally admissible as evidence of value.

Furthermore, the evidence that Trump put into the case regarding how he and his team had valued Mar-a-Lago were conclusory and without an evidentiary foundation.  Accordingly, not worth the paper written on.

Once again, Trump has done this to himself, repeatedly, and he has nobody but himself to blame.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2023, 09:51:09 am »
   I was aware of that @Kamaji BUT he probably got loans of those 6 failed businesses; Water, Steaks, Airline, Casino and University?  My impression is that he was always a mediocre Businessman at best.

Like any businessman, Trump has had winners and losers. I don't think he necessarily lost money on the water, steaks and university. These were cases in which he probably lent his name for a fee. He definitely lost money and left a lot of people holding the bag in the casino business, and I think the same might be true of the airlines.

Trump's modus operandi has always been to leave a lot of fecal matter in his wake. He did that as a businessman, and he does that as a politician. I sometimes wonder how it is at all possible for him to continue to be viable with all the enemies he has made. Even I have to admire his resilience and unmitigated gall.  I won't vote for him in the primary, but I can't help but see what he is up against, and admire how he refuses to capitulate.

My biggest fear is that he is more interested in the regency of the office, and less interested in doing the hard things that need to be done. Other than punishing his enemies -- which I have no doubt he will do -- I don't think he has the inclination or the capability to reverse the bullying by the federal government. I think he wants that power for himself.

 

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2023, 10:08:57 am »
Apparently this Judge valuated Mara Lago at $18 million

Sounds like the judge is the one here committing fraud.
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2023, 10:10:22 am »
Three words:

Read.

The.

Opinion.

Did the opinion happen to mention the name of the party that was defrauded and the amount of their losses?
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Offline LMAO

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2023, 10:28:59 am »

My biggest fear is that he is more interested in the regency of the office, and less interested in doing the hard things that need to be done. Other than punishing his enemies -- which I have no doubt he will do -- I don't think he has the inclination or the capability to reverse the bullying by the federal government. I think he wants that power for himself.

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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2023, 11:08:01 am »
Did the opinion happen to mention the name of the party that was defrauded and the amount of their losses?

The statute in question does not require that.  Read.  The.  Opinion.

This is not some fly-by-night, "creative" interpretation of a statute that has never been used against anyone else.  This statute has seen a fair bit of use against the likes of General Electric and Dominos Pizza, and it does not require that anyone have been defrauded.  It is like a speed limit or the laws against deceptive advertising - the violation happens if one speeds or engages in deceptive advertising, whether or not anyone was injured by one's speeding, or by one's deceptive advertising.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2023, 11:11:56 am »
Sounds like the judge is the one here committing fraud.

The judge did nothing of the sort.  The judge rather correctly dismissed Trump's valuations as (a) not based on any evidence, and (b) clearly erroneous because - as his own attorneys admitted during oral argument on the summary judgment motion - they ignored use restrictions that Trump himself had voluntarily put in place.  Instead, the judge relied on the evidence the NY AG offered which consisted of the valuation reports of the Palm Beach County Assessor for the years 2011 to 2021, which determined a fair market value for Mar-a-Lago of between $18m and $27.6m.

Reliance on a property tax assessor's value determination is not unreasonable, and is frequently done, for example, in estate cases, where inherited real estate has to be valued.

In other words, Trump gave the judge no other option but to adopt the evidence proffered by the NY AG because Trump offered no other evidence.

Read.  The.  Opinion.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2023, 12:02:32 pm »
Read.  The.  Opinion.

Again, what was the "repeated fraudulent or illegal act"?  The opinion is 35 pages of the judge defending his denial of the petition.  But zero pages characterizing the repeated fraudulent or illegal action that Trump allegedly performed.  Maybe you are the one who needs to Read. The. Opinion.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=SW20FJCsispWwDnx1ms5Dw==&system=prod
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2023, 12:12:05 pm »
Again, what was the "repeated fraudulent or illegal act"?  The opinion is 35 pages of the judge defending his denial of the petition.  But zero pages characterizing the repeated fraudulent or illegal action that Trump allegedly performed.  Maybe you are the one who needs to Read. The. Opinion.

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=SW20FJCsispWwDnx1ms5Dw==&system=prod

Then you didn't read the opinion.

The opinion lays out quite concisely what elements the NY AG has to prove to succeed under the statute, and why the AG has managed to do so.

The fraudulent actions Trump performed were providing grossly inflated valuations of his property on his Statements of Financial Condition for which Trump could provide no evidentiary basis and which, in point of fact, Trump's own lawyers admitted were false because, in the case of Mar-a-Lago, they intentionally did not take into account the use restrictions Trump had voluntarily placed on the property.

Here is that point from page 27 of the opinion:  "Defendants further imply that they may ignore the plain language of the 2002 Deed restrictions because they would likely be able to use the Florida judicial system to get out of their contractual requirements; they further asser that because they may successfully breach their contract in the future, they were not required to consider the restrictions of the 2002 Deed when valuing the property. NYSCEF Doc. 1292 at 48-51. This argument is wholly without merit. At the time in which the defendants submitted the SFCs, the restrictions were in effect, and any valuations represented to third-parties must have incorporated those restrictions; failure to do so is fraud. Assets values that disregard applicable legal restrictions are by definition materially false and misleading." (emphasis mine).

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2023, 12:24:30 pm »
The NY State Court judge is referring to assessments in Florida and Scotland.  Last time I checked, Florida and Scotland did not fall under NY State legal jurisdiction.  But I digress.  Again, what was the repeated fraudulent or illegal act?
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2023, 12:32:15 pm »
On p. 26, the judge cites a discrepancy between the valuation placed on a Florida property by the Florida county tax assessor and the claimed SFC value by Trump.  This is commonplace.  Rarely does any property sell for the value placed by a municipal tax assessor.  I recently sold a house for nearly double the county assessment.  Does that constitute fraud?  Certainly not.  It isn't Trump's responsibility to do Palm Beach County's job for them.  And it certainly isn't the business of the State of New York to judge it.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2023, 12:33:51 pm »
The NY State Court judge is referring to assessments in Florida and Scotland.  Last time I checked, Florida and Scotland did not fall under NY State legal jurisdiction.  But I digress.  Again, what was the repeated fraudulent or illegal act?

Stop being pig-headed.  The fraudulent act was providing valuations that were false - demonstrably so in the case of Mar-a-Lago - and that were made without any factual basis.

In point of fact, failing to take into account the use restrictions - which Trump admitted to not doing - is almost per-se fraudulent.

Furthermore, the issue is whether, in NY, Trump made false statements regarding his assets; the location of the assets themselves is immaterial.

Again, stop trying to dance around the obvious.

If you don't like reading the opinion because it offends you, then read the statute and the other cases that have been based on it.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 12:40:29 pm by Kamaji »

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2023, 12:40:30 pm »
Stop being pig-headed.  The fraudulent act was providing valuations that were false - demonstrably so in the case of Mar-a-Lago

Demonstrably so, eh?  So what is the current assessed sale value of the property?


- and that were made without any factual basis.

Made without any factual basis?  This entire case was created without any factual basis for the charges?
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2023, 12:42:40 pm »
On p. 26, the judge cites a discrepancy between the valuation placed on a Florida property by the Florida county tax assessor and the claimed SFC value by Trump.  This is commonplace.  Rarely does any property sell for the value placed by a municipal tax assessor.  I recently sold a house for nearly double the county assessment.  Does that constitute fraud?  Certainly not.  It isn't Trump's responsibility to do Palm Beach County's job for them.  And it certainly isn't the business of the State of New York to judge it.

The judge notes that because the judge was not presented with any other evidence of value, other than the Palm Beach County Assessor's determinations, and Trump was not even able to make a coherent argument for why those valuations should be ignored.

Furthermore, the judge also notes that Trump's lawyers admitted in their briefs that the use restrictions on the property were intentionally ignored by Trump when pulling his valuations out of his ass.  As the judge notes, intentionally failing to take into account valid existing restrictions is fraudulent.  Period.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2023, 12:47:18 pm »
Demonstrably so, eh?  So what is the current assessed sale value of the property?

Yes, demonstrably so, because whatever the value of the property, the accurate value had to be determined by taking the use restrictions into account, which would have significantly reduced the value of the property, and Trump's lawyers admitted in their briefs that Trump intentionally chose to not take those use restrictions into account.

Quote
Made without any factual basis?  This entire case was created without any factual basis for the charges?

Bullshit.  Trump made statements of fact in his Statements of Financial Condition, which statements the NY AG alleged were false, and which the AG has proven were false because the only competent valuation evidence introduced into court - the Palm Beach County Assessor's valuations - were substantially less than the values Trump put on his SFCs, and Trump could neither introduce evidence that justified the values he pulled out of his ass, nor could he should that the Palm Beach County Assessor's valuations were unreliable.

He had to have done one of those two things to contradict the evidence of value the NY AG submitted to the court.  He did neither, despite having plenty of opportunity to do so.  The only logical conclusion to be drawn is that Trump made those valuations up, and they were necessarily inflated because he intentionally chose to not take into account factors that would have reduced that value, as his lawyers have already admitted in court.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2023, 12:55:56 pm »
Bullshit.  Trump made statements of fact in his Statements of Financial Condition, which statements the NY AG alleged were false, and which the AG has proven were false because the only competent valuation evidence introduced into court - the Palm Beach County Assessor's valuations - were substantially less than the values Trump put on his SFCs

The Palm Beach valuation was not a sales valuation but a tax valuation.  And it hardly qualifies as competent.  And if the judge is relying on a tax assessment, then he himself is guilty of the exact same thing he falsely accuses Trump of doing.  In other words, this judge has no factual basis for challenging the accuracy of Trump's assessment.

There are private entities who are in the business of conducting property valuations for sales purposes.  Did this judge hire any of them to get a factual assessment?  Or did he simply make up a number based on a woefully inaccurate tax assessment?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2023, 12:59:24 pm »
Yes, demonstrably so, because whatever the value of the property, the accurate value had to be determined by taking the use restrictions into account, which would have significantly reduced the value of the property

Your basis?  Oh yeah, that's right.  The judge never conducted a property valuation himself.  He basically just made up a number based on an old non-New York county tax assessment (i.e. not sales assessment).
 

and Trump's lawyers admitted in their briefs that Trump intentionally chose to not take those use restrictions into account.

So what?  If I am legally handicapped but chose not to park in a handicapped parking spot, am I guilty of fraud?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2023, 01:01:46 pm »
The Palm Beach valuation was not a sales valuation but a tax valuation.  And it hardly qualifies as competent.  And if the judge is relying on a tax assessment, then he himself is guilty of the exact same thing he falsely accuses Trump of doing.  In other words, this judge has no factual basis for challenging the accuracy of Trump's assessment.

There are private entities who are in the business of conducting property valuations for sales purposes.  Did this judge hire any of them to get a factual assessment?  Or did he simply make up a number based on a woefully inaccurate tax assessment?


Then Trump and his lawyers should have been able to prove that.  Since they couldn't, that was the only competent evidence the judge had for value.

What is the judge supposed to do?  Go and make up a value himself?  Wasn't that precisely what you were just bitching about earlier?

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2023, 01:03:03 pm »
Your basis?  Oh yeah, that's right.  The judge never conducted a property valuation himself.  He basically just made up a number based on an old non-New York county tax assessment (i.e. not sales assessment).
 

So what?  If I am legally handicapped but chose not to park in a handicapped parking spot, am I guilty of fraud?

No, the judge did not make up a value.  He accepted as the only competent evidence available the values that the NY AG had entered into evidence.

Wow.  You really cannot grasp reality here, can you?

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2023, 01:11:43 pm »

Then Trump and his lawyers should have been able to prove that.  Since they couldn't, that was the only competent evidence the judge had for value.

Nope.  It was the value he chose to use as a substitute for sales valuation.  And it wasn't anywhere close to "competent".


What is the judge supposed to do?  Go and make up a value himself?

That's what he already did.  Without having a single independent assessment of the sales value of the property, the judge chose a number himself based on a tax estimate - one that is not based on actual sales valuation but is based on a percentage of total tax revenue needed for government revenue purposes.  So yes, in order to compare to Trump's number (which has nothing to do with tax assessment), the judge made up a value himself.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2023, 01:16:56 pm »
No, the judge did not make up a value.  He accepted as the only competent evidence available the values that the NY AG had entered into evidence.

The NY AG entered into evidence a value that had zero to do with potential sales value of the property.  Nothing.  Zip.  Nada.  And it wasn't "competent", evidenced by the fact that several entities have already come forward willing to fork over $18 million for the property and turn a 3000% profit the next day.  But I do get a big laugh out of you calling a county tax assessor "competent" when it comes to real estate sales.


Wow.  You really cannot grasp reality here, can you?

Reality?  How about pointing out how any of this matters?  Was anyone defrauded?  Did any illegal acts take place?  Heck, if anything, the Palm Beach tax assessor should be fired for not accepting Trump's valuation.  Good grief, Trump should be given a medal for declaring the value as high as he did.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2023, 02:10:39 pm »
:facepalm2:

Clearly, people do not understand how litigation, particularly civil litigation, proceeds.

Oh well.  I've tried, but there is no reasoning with someone who is contumaciously satisfied with his own ignorance.

:shrug:

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2023, 02:24:30 pm »
:facepalm2:

Clearly, people do not understand how litigation, particularly civil litigation, proceeds.

Oh well.  I've tried, but there is no reasoning with someone who is contumaciously satisfied with his own ignorance.

I understand how litigation proceeds.  I also understand that there was no actual fraud committed.  And you of all people should understand that a judge's ruling does not constitute proof or fact.

Again, who was defrauded here?  What repeated illegal acts took place?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2023, 03:04:41 pm »
I understand how litigation proceeds.  I also understand that there was no actual fraud committed.  And you of all people should understand that a judge's ruling does not constitute proof or fact.

Again, who was defrauded here?  What repeated illegal acts took place?

No, actually, you clearly do not.

This is how litigation generally proceeds, in schematic form:

1.  Plaintiff has some evidence that would, if true, justify a lawsuit by plaintiff against defendant.

2.  Plaintiff sues defendant, and includes allegations as to the factual basis for the claim, and oftentime attaching documents that support the claim.

3.  Defendant files a reply to the claim, either agreeing with, or denying, plaintiff's allegations.  Defendant will often attach documents supporting its position.

4.  Plaintiff or defendant may then make a motion for summary judgment, claiming that as a matter of law, based on the facts adduced so far, the moving party is entitled to judgment because there are no material issues of fact to be decided.  Each side briefs the matter and may include additional documents that bear on the matter.

5.  Judge reviews the pleadings, including documents introduced as evidence, and arguments presented at oral argument, and decides whether there is a material issue of fact that needs to be decided by a fact-finder or not.  Judge rules accordingly.

In this case, it would have gone something like this:

1.  AG sues Trump claiming that he has consistently lied on his SFCs about the values of his property, and that those lies constitute acts creating an atmosphere conducive to fraud.  AG includes copies of the SFCs and copies of the Assessor's valuations for the years 2011 to 2021.

2.  Trump replies to the claim, and either admits or denies each allegation - let's assume he denies each allegation.

3.  AG moves for summary judgment, claiming that, as a matter of law, Trump violated Exec. Law 63(12) because the values on the SFCs were substantially higher than the assessor's values.

4.  Trump replies to the motion for summary judgment with a brief that is supposed to contest the basis for summary judgment.  In this motion, since the crux of the issue is that there is no issue of material fact regarding the difference in the valuations, it would be incumbent upon Trump and his lawyers to include documents that would tend to show that the AG's claim was wrong, or at the least that there was a material issue of fact to try.  That might include things like the following:  (a) the actual valuation report Trump relied on originally to arrive at the value, even if that report was prepared by him and his staff, (b) evidence tending to show that the assessor's valuations - which clearly are only arrived at as a means of dividing the property tax pie up between all of the various properties within the taxing jurisdiction - are unreliable - for example, if it had been my case, I would have had several junior associates spending several weeks to comb through all of the property sales in and around Mar-a-Lago during the relevant times, focusing particularly on unique properties, to present evidence that there was a wide discrepancy between the assessor's values - which are a matter of public record and easily obtained - and the actual sales values for those properties; I would hope that there would be no consistent pattern or delta to the differences so that I could argue both that there was a significant difference, and that the differences were so different property to property that no simple rule could be derived from them, such as "multiply the assessor's valuations by 5.4 to arrive at the likely sale value" - I would also have them comb the deeds for those properties to see if there are use restrictions on any of the other properties, so that I could gauge the differential effect that would have vis-a-vis the assessor's valuations.  With respect to Trump's conscious choice to disregard the effect of the use restrictions on valuation, I would have had an opinion commissioned by an outside lawyer experienced in those matters who could opine on whether or not Trump or a purchaser would have been successful in defeating those restrictions in court, and then argued in my reply brief to the AG's motion that it was correct to weight the effect of those restrictions as something less than 100% due to the chances that overturning them might have been successful - hopefully, my expert would have opined that there was a very good chance (say, 75% or better) of overturning the restrictions, so that it would have been reasonable to have substantially discounted their effect on the value of that property.

To all appearances, Trump and his lawyer did none of these things.  Instead, they got off into the woods on arguments about standing and parens patriae, none of which was very well argued even so.

Clearly, (a) Trump did not hire the best and the brightest, if even a poor sod like me can come up with a better litigation strategy, and (b) it is still the case that Trump did himself in because he didn't have proper valuations done on his properties when he prepared the SFCs.  To all appearances, he didn't even go to a few of his friends in the business and get BPOs from commercial real estate brokers.

As a result, the judge was left with very few options.  He could have, as he did, accept the value propounded by the AG as being the only competent, objective evidence of value entered into the case.  In a civil litigation, the judge's job is not to hunt for the TRUTH like some black-robed Diogenes, it is to determine, based on the law and the evidence presented, which party has the better position.

It astounds me that Trump is such a fuckwit that he couldn't even hire lawyers who could diligently attack the AG's case on summary judgment. 

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2023, 03:15:22 pm »
3.  AG moves for summary judgment, claiming that, as a matter of law, Trump violated Exec. Law 63(12) because the values on the SFCs were substantially higher than the assessor's values.

The problem here is that higher values on his SFC compared to a Florida county tax assessor DOES NOT CONSTITUTE FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT.


As a result, the judge was left with very few options.  He could have, as he did, accept the value propounded by the AG as being the only competent [sic], objective evidence of value entered into the case.

The judge had other options available that he did not choose.  Regardless, his opinion does not constitute proof that fraud took place.  It is simply an opinion.  Which is why I questioned the evidence backing up that opinion.  And clearly, there wasn't any.


To all appearances, Trump and his lawyer did none of these things.  Instead, they got off into the woods on arguments about standing and parens patriae, none of which was very well argued even so.

Clearly, (a) Trump did not hire the best and the brightest, if even a poor sod like me can come up with a better litigation strategy, and (b) it is still the case that Trump did himself in because he didn't have proper valuations done on his properties when he prepared the SFCs.  To all appearances, he didn't even go to a few of his friends in the business and get BPOs from commercial real estate brokers.

.  .  .

It astounds me that Trump is such a fuckwit that he couldn't even hire lawyers who could diligently attack the AG's case on summary judgment.

No argument from me on any of that.  Trump is not the sharpest legal mind in the shed.  I could have put up a better defense than this.  In fact, I already have.  All he needed to do was to provide a list of other properties that had been sold nearby in the last decade.





If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2023, 03:23:26 pm »
The problem here is that higher values on his SFC compared to a Florida county tax assessor DOES NOT CONSTITUTE FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT.


The judge had other options available that he did not choose.  Regardless, his opinion does not constitute proof that fraud took place.  It is simply an opinion.  Which is why I questioned the evidence backing up that opinion.  And clearly, there wasn't any.


No argument from me on any of that.  Trump is not the sharpest legal mind in the shed.  I could have put up a better defense than this.  In fact, I already have.  All he needed to do was to provide a list of other properties that had been sold nearby in the last decade.








:facepalm2:

Again, read the bleep opinion and the cases to which it cites. 

THE STATUTE DOES NOT REQUIRE PROOF OF FRAUD OR AN ILLEGAL ACT

All it requires is that there be proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud.  People v. Gen. Elec. Co."  See page 18 of the opinion under the heading "Materiality".

And making up values that are substantially greater than the only objective evidence of value that either party has submitted to the court is certainly evidence that the defendant was engaging in activity - falsifying the values of his assets on SFCs submitted to lenders and creditors - that would create an atmosphere conducive to fraud.


Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2023, 03:41:54 pm »
All it requires is that there be proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud.  People v. Gen. Elec. Co."  See page 18 of the opinion under the heading "Materiality".

So where is the proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud?  Again, where was the deception?  Who was the target of that deception?  And based on the owner-declared situational condition of the property, where is there any valuation presented in court that disputes it?  Clearly, such a valuation did not come from Palm Beach County.

Again, where is the fraud or illegal act?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2023, 03:46:01 pm »
So where is the proof of repeated conduct that "has the capacity or tendency to deceive, or creates an atmosphere conducive to fraud?  Again, where was the deception?  Who was the target of that deception?  And based on the owner-declared situational condition of the property, where is there any valuation presented in court that disputes it?  Clearly, such a valuation did not come from Palm Beach County.

Again, where is the fraud or illegal act?

:facepalm2:

Let's try that again:  NO FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT IS REQUIRED UNDER EXEC. LAW §63(12).

Otherwise, the answer is staring you in the face.  Trump was asked to provide a Statement of Financial Condition to current and future lenders that accurately states the value of his property.  He intentionally and repeatedly lied about the value of his properties and inflated them substantially over what they're worth.

That creates the conditions that are conducive to fraud.  I know you don't want to accept that fact, because it runs counter to your lawfare narrative, but that is sufficient for a claim under Exec. Law §63(12).
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 03:47:39 pm by Kamaji »

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2023, 05:05:39 pm »
Trump was asked to provide a Statement of Financial Condition to current and future lenders that accurately states the value of his property.  He intentionally and repeatedly lied about the value of his properties and inflated them substantially over what they're worth.

That creates the conditions that are conducive to fraud.  I know you don't want to accept that fact, because it runs counter to your lawfare narrative, but that is sufficient for a claim under Exec. Law §63(12).

To lenders?  Now we're getting somewhere.  Before lenders lend you money on property, they perform a valuation on the property.  Never ever do they simply take your word for it.  So is there an example where a lender lent money against the value of the property in excess of the assessed sales value?  Surely a lender already had the same information the Palm Beach County tax assessor had.  In other words, it isn't fraud.  No one was defrauded.  No one broke the law.  No one suffered.  No crime.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2023, 05:06:24 pm »
Let's try that again:  NO FRAUD OR ILLEGAL ACT IS REQUIRED UNDER EXEC. LAW §63(12).

So it wasn't fraud.  Got it.  Glad to see you finally agree.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Judge rules Trump committed fraud in building real estate empire
« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2023, 05:14:54 pm »
So it wasn't fraud.  Got it.  Glad to see you finally agree.

I didn't say it wasn't fraud.  Don't put words in my mouth.

I said that Trump lied about the value of his assets, and that lie amounts to actions that create an atmosphere that is conducive to fraud, and that is all that the statute requires.

Unless Trump and his band of incompetent attorneys can come up with a good argument for why there is a material issue of fact that requires overturning the summary judgment, or can make a good argument for why the remedy should not be as drastic as it could be, Trump's goose is cooked, and he is the one who did it to himself.