Author Topic: Ukraine 4  (Read 521138 times)

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Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #900 on: July 11, 2023, 01:21:18 pm »
How many Russians have died in Ukraine? Data shows what Moscow hides

 Nearly 50,000 Russian men have died in the war in Ukraine, according to the first independent statistical analysis of Russia’s war dead.

Two independent Russian media outlets, Mediazona and Meduza, working with a data scientist from Germany’s Tübingen University, used Russian government data to shed light on one of Moscow’s closest-held secrets — the true human cost of its invasion of Ukraine.

To do so, they relied on a statistical concept popularized during the COVID-19 pandemic called excess mortality. Drawing on inheritance records and official mortality data, they estimated how many more men under age 50 died between February 2022 and May 2023 than normal..........

...........In February, the U.K. Ministry of Defense said approximately 40,000 to 60,000 Russians had likely been killed in the war. A leaked assessment from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency put the number of Russians killed in action in the first year of the war at 35,000 to 43,000...............

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-military-deaths-facd75c2311ed7be660342698cf6a409


Offline Timber Rattler

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #901 on: July 11, 2023, 01:25:15 pm »
Time magazine did an article on "Zelensky's Cash Haul" -- dated, but needs to be acknowledged

https://time.com/6243285/zelenskys-cash-haul/

That article is about funding Ukraine's government and pension system, which I disapprove of using American tax dollars...that should be Europe's role.  However, it presents ZERO evidence, nor does it make the claim, that Zelensky is personally corrupt and is skimming off the top.  That's just an assumption many are making based on PAST Ukrainian presidents like Yanukovych and Poroshenko.  Zelensky won his election by a landslide on an anti-corruption platform, and he was already wealthy from his comedy and acting career. 

So that argument does not fly until we see some definite proof that he is personally profiting from the war.  To me it looks like it is wearing him down because he is visibly aging and talks with a hoarse gravelly voice now from all the meetings and phone calls he takes each day.  He looks very tired.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #902 on: July 11, 2023, 01:27:00 pm »
That article is about funding Ukraine's government and pension system, which I disapprove of using American tax dollars...that should be Europe's role.  However, it presents ZERO evidence, nor does it make the claim, that Zelensky is personally corrupt and is skimming off the top.  That's just an assumption many are making based on PAST Ukrainian presidents like Yanukovych and Poroshenko.  Zelensky won his election by a landslide on an anti-corruption platform, and he was already wealthy from his comedy and acting career. 

So that argument does not fly until we see some definite proof that he is personally profiting from the war.  To me it looks like it is wearing him down because he is visibly aging and talks with a hoarse gravelly voice now from all the meetings and phone calls he takes each day.  He looks very tired.

In fact, the Ukraine government continues to fight corruption, even during the war for its very survival against the Russian orcs:  https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/fighting-corruption-wartime-ukraine

Offline Timber Rattler

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #903 on: July 11, 2023, 01:28:32 pm »
Last month -- reporting of Brandon pocketing Ukraine money --  anyone still thinks Brandon isn't funneling money to Ukraine into his pocket?

https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/joe-biden-exposed-for-allegedly-pocketing-5-million-in-ukrainian-bribery-scheme/video/a0a9ec471ed6f94e553b5296580ae7fc

That article concerns Biden's corruption BEFORE the war when he was VP and Hunter was on Burisma's board.  Where is the proof that Biden's actually siphoning money off NOW with the war aid being given to Ukraine?  I'm not saying that he isn't, but where is the PROOF?

Just more assumptions without evidence...
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," "psychopathic POS," "depraved SOB," "Never Trump Moron," "Lazarus," and "sock puppet."

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Offline Timber Rattler

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #904 on: July 11, 2023, 01:30:54 pm »
Both Brandon and Zelensky are lining their pockets...Z is just took over for his predecessor who Hunter and Brandon were 'involved' with.

You don't know that about Zelensky at all.  Just another knee-jerk assumption.
aka "nasty degenerate SOB," "worst of the worst at Free Republic," "Garbage Troll," "Neocon Warmonger," "Filthy Piece of Trash," "damn $#%$#@!," "Silly f'er," "POS," "war pig," "neocon scumbag," "insignificant little ankle nipper," "@ss-clown," "neocuck," "termite," "Uniparty Deep stater," "Never Trump sack of dog feces," "avid Bidenista," "filthy Ukrainian," "war whore," "fricking chump," "psychopathic POS," "depraved SOB," "Never Trump Moron," "Lazarus," and "sock puppet."

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Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #905 on: July 11, 2023, 03:33:38 pm »
That article concerns Biden's corruption BEFORE the war when he was VP and Hunter was on Burisma's board.  Where is the proof that Biden's actually siphoning money off NOW with the war aid being given to Ukraine?  I'm not saying that he isn't, but where is the PROOF?

Just more assumptions without evidence...

Evidence is irrelevant to Ukraine-Is-The-Most-Corrupt-Country-On-Earth True-Believers, and lack of evidence proves the conspiracy theory.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 03:34:43 pm by PeteS in CA »
I am not and never have been a leftist.

If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #906 on: July 11, 2023, 03:41:43 pm »
Z is just took over for his predecessor who Hunter and Brandon were 'involved' with.

@libertybele

Zelenskiy ran on an anti-corruption ticket that ran in direct opposition to Poroshenko (i.e. the predecessor who Hunter and Brandon were 'involved' with).  You really don't have a clue what you are talking about.  Remember when the American President called Zelenskiy up trying to get him to replace a prosecutor?  Did he do it?  Nope.  But Poroshenko certainly did.

If you are looking for corruption, you will find plenty of it here.  But franly, Ukraine is too busy for that right now.  They have a war to fight.  And last time I checked, Zelenskiy hasn't filled a helicopter with cash and skipped town yet, even when the Russians were bearing down on Kyiv.
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Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #907 on: July 11, 2023, 04:09:27 pm »
A Look Back at the History of Ukraine- Russia Conflict as Tensions Continue to Rise

Since World War II, the violent changing of European borders has been considered taboo, given the cascade of turmoil that could follow. For that reason, 2014 was, ina sense, a pivotal year, as Eastern Europe again saw borders altered by violence and the threat of force, as part of Ukraine (Crimea) was annexed by Russia. In light of continuing conflict, we look back at that disruptive event, and the continuing ramifications brought up by it.......

.........The tinder for the Ukraine conflict didn’t spontaneously come into being in 2014. Rather, the background is a slow-motion identity crisis involving both Ukraine and Russia, and extending back over centuries.

...........For Ukrainians, their identities are both linked to those of a past shared with Russia, but also with historic ties and affinities with the West. Ukraine is marked by a diversity of historical memories and orientations, and in that sense, it’s like a microcosm of larger Eastern European patterns.

The tides of history carved out divides in Ukraine that still persist today. First Mongols came and receded, leaving Tartars; then Poland-Lithuania moved in, leaving their own imprint...................

...............In 1654, the Cossack warlord Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who had led an uprising against Poland and sought to create an independent state, signed a treaty with Russia at Pereyaslav.

Khmelnytsky received the Tsar’s protection, along with Russian promises for Ukrainian autonomy. Instead of getting an ally who would defend their existence, the Cossacks discovered that they had a set of new rulers. In 1667, Poland and Russia came to an agreement for partition: They divided the contested Ukrainian lands along the Dnieper River................

.............Between the World Wars, Ukrainians found themselves divided by borders, most living in the Soviet Union, others in Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. Inside the Soviet Union, Stalin cracked down on Ukrainian cultural leaders and brought mass death with the Terror Famine, or Holodomor, of the 1930s.

With the coming of the Second World War, some Ukrainian nationalists hoped that Nazi Germany might help their cause. Among their leaders was Stepan Bandera. At the start of the Second World War, they allied with Nazi Germany and some participated in the Nazi campaigns against the Jews. But as Ukrainian hopes for independence were frustrated, relations deteriorated and the Nazis imprisoned Bandera.

Toward the end of the Second World War, borders and populations were shifted. Ukraine saw key examples of this. Stalin deported all the Crimean Tartars from their homes, expelling them overnight. Poland shifted westward, ethnic Poles were evicted from ancestral homes, and the city of Lwow became Lviv, in western Ukraine. By the end of this process, Ukraine’s borders included most Ukrainians for the first time in centuries, but all of them under Moscow’s rigid control..............

...........With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became independent. However, the newly independent Ukraine revealed complexities. Along with Russia and Belarus, Ukraine was one of the founding members of the CIS, the Commonwealth of Independent States, to the east. Yet many Ukrainian leaders avowed that they wanted to be part of an Eastern European “return to Europe,” which would mean orienting themselves to the west....................

......Corruption at multiple levels of government ate away at ordinary people’s confidence in the system, and economic productivity lagged. Ukraine found itself hugely dependent on Russia for energy supplies, some 75 percent of its gas and 80 percent of its oil. To overcome its troubles, Ukraine sought international financial aid, and giving up its nuclear stockpile left over from the Soviet era in 1994 helped win them some assistance............

............Disappointment with insider politics as usual produced a popular movement called the Orange Revolution in 2004. The Ukrainian opposition to the government was led by Viktor Yushchenko.

On September 5, 2004, Yushchenko became desperately ill after dinner. Medical tests showed dioxin poisoning symptoms, and the symptoms were visible in his bloated, pockmarked face.
Image of Viktor YushchenkoViktor Yushchenko (Image: Tasnim News Agency, CC BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0, via Wikimedia Commons)

Who had done it? Several suspects fled to Russia and were not questioned. Was the intention to kill him outright? Or “merely” to disfigure him in his outward appearance and, thus, scuttle his chances for election? Whatever the case, it backfired.

When the government announced fraudulent election returns, people took to the streets. They chose the vivid color orange to rally people to their cause and kept protesting even in the bitter winter cold of the streets. After 17 days, the protestors won; and in a new election, Yushchenko became president.................

..........At the end of 2013, when Yanukovych negotiated and then bizarrely refused to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union, protests erupted again in Kiev, Lviv, and other cities. These protests, in coldest winter, came to be called the Euromaidan, or “Euro Square.”

Government forces tried to quell the protests. Dozens of protestors were killed. But by February 2014, President Yanukovych felt his power crumbling and fled, finding refuge in Russia................

..............Putin, who had been Yanukovych’s patron, declared his ouster and the change of government illegitimate. Russian forces moved into Crimea. At first, the Russian government denied that it had sent troops into the region, which had an ethnic Russian majority. The troops bore no insignia, but they did wear masks. Russia then annexed Crimea officially, over international protests.

Later, in March 2015, Putin proudly admitted openly what his government had denied: Russian involvement was not a spontaneous response to calls for help, but a plan, and the annexation was ordered weeks before the referendum was staged under the watchful eyes of gunmen..................

https://www.wondriumdaily.com/a-look-back-at-the-history-of-ukraine-russia-conflict-as-tensions-continue-to-rise/

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #908 on: July 11, 2023, 04:20:03 pm »
A Look Back at the History of Ukraine- Russia Conflict as Tensions Continue to Rise

Since World War II, the violent changing of European borders has been considered taboo, given the cascade of turmoil that could follow. For that reason, 2014 was, ina sense, a pivotal year, as Eastern Europe again saw borders altered by violence and the threat of force, as part of Ukraine (Crimea) was annexed by Russia. In light of continuing conflict, we look back at that disruptive event, and the continuing ramifications brought up by it.......

.........The tinder for the Ukraine conflict didn’t spontaneously come into being in 2014. Rather, the background is a slow-motion identity crisis involving both Ukraine and Russia, and extending back over centuries.

...........For Ukrainians, their identities are both linked to those of a past shared with Russia, but also with historic ties and affinities with the West. Ukraine is marked by a diversity of historical memories and orientations, and in that sense, it’s like a microcosm of larger Eastern European patterns.

The tides of history carved out divides in Ukraine that still persist today. First Mongols came and receded, leaving Tartars; then Poland-Lithuania moved in, leaving their own imprint...................

...............In 1654, the Cossack warlord Bohdan Khmelnytsky, who had led an uprising against Poland and sought to create an independent state, signed a treaty with Russia at Pereyaslav.

Khmelnytsky received the Tsar’s protection, along with Russian promises for Ukrainian autonomy. Instead of getting an ally who would defend their existence, the Cossacks discovered that they had a set of new rulers. In 1667, Poland and Russia came to an agreement for partition: They divided the contested Ukrainian lands along the Dnieper River................

.............Between the World Wars, Ukrainians found themselves divided by borders, most living in the Soviet Union, others in Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. Inside the Soviet Union, Stalin cracked down on Ukrainian cultural leaders and brought mass death with the Terror Famine, or Holodomor, of the 1930s.

With the coming of the Second World War, some Ukrainian nationalists hoped that Nazi Germany might help their cause. Among their leaders was Stepan Bandera. At the start of the Second World War, they allied with Nazi Germany and some participated in the Nazi campaigns against the Jews. But as Ukrainian hopes for independence were frustrated, relations deteriorated and the Nazis imprisoned Bandera.

Toward the end of the Second World War, borders and populations were shifted. Ukraine saw key examples of this. Stalin deported all the Crimean Tartars from their homes, expelling them overnight. Poland shifted westward, ethnic Poles were evicted from ancestral homes, and the city of Lwow became Lviv, in western Ukraine. By the end of this process, Ukraine’s borders included most Ukrainians for the first time in centuries, but all of them under Moscow’s rigid control..............

...........With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became independent. However, the newly independent Ukraine revealed complexities. Along with Russia and Belarus, Ukraine was one of the founding members of the CIS, the Commonwealth of Independent States, to the east. Yet many Ukrainian leaders avowed that they wanted to be part of an Eastern European “return to Europe,” which would mean orienting themselves to the west....................

......Corruption at multiple levels of government ate away at ordinary people’s confidence in the system, and economic productivity lagged. Ukraine found itself hugely dependent on Russia for energy supplies, some 75 percent of its gas and 80 percent of its oil. To overcome its troubles, Ukraine sought international financial aid, and giving up its nuclear stockpile left over from the Soviet era in 1994 helped win them some assistance............

............Disappointment with insider politics as usual produced a popular movement called the Orange Revolution in 2004. The Ukrainian opposition to the government was led by Viktor Yushchenko.

On September 5, 2004, Yushchenko became desperately ill after dinner. Medical tests showed dioxin poisoning symptoms, and the symptoms were visible in his bloated, pockmarked face.
Image of Viktor YushchenkoViktor Yushchenko (Image: Tasnim News Agency, CC BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0, via Wikimedia Commons)

Who had done it? Several suspects fled to Russia and were not questioned. Was the intention to kill him outright? Or “merely” to disfigure him in his outward appearance and, thus, scuttle his chances for election? Whatever the case, it backfired.

When the government announced fraudulent election returns, people took to the streets. They chose the vivid color orange to rally people to their cause and kept protesting even in the bitter winter cold of the streets. After 17 days, the protestors won; and in a new election, Yushchenko became president.................

..........At the end of 2013, when Yanukovych negotiated and then bizarrely refused to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union, protests erupted again in Kiev, Lviv, and other cities. These protests, in coldest winter, came to be called the Euromaidan, or “Euro Square.”

Government forces tried to quell the protests. Dozens of protestors were killed. But by February 2014, President Yanukovych felt his power crumbling and fled, finding refuge in Russia................

..............Putin, who had been Yanukovych’s patron, declared his ouster and the change of government illegitimate. Russian forces moved into Crimea. At first, the Russian government denied that it had sent troops into the region, which had an ethnic Russian majority. The troops bore no insignia, but they did wear masks. Russia then annexed Crimea officially, over international protests.

Later, in March 2015, Putin proudly admitted openly what his government had denied: Russian involvement was not a spontaneous response to calls for help, but a plan, and the annexation was ordered weeks before the referendum was staged under the watchful eyes of gunmen..................

https://www.wondriumdaily.com/a-look-back-at-the-history-of-ukraine-russia-conflict-as-tensions-continue-to-rise/

Very nice, but there is only one statement that is both necessary, and sufficient, to justify support for Ukraine's fight against the Russian orc:

Quote
With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became independent.

That independence was acknowledged by Russia - could not have happened without the affirmative consent of Russia - and was vouchsafed by both Russia and the U.S.

Now Russia wants a mulligan.  They want to take it all back and rewind the tape to the early 1970s, before the collapse of the Soviet Union became inevitable.

Furthermore, based on the facts - not speculation, fact - that Russia is intentionally targeting civilians that are outside the sphere of combat, and has kidnapped tens of thousands of Ukraine children and forcibly taken them back to Russia for indoctrination, and worse, it should be clear to anyone with half a brain that Putin is engaged in trying to complete the Holodomor that Stalin first visited on the Ukraine populace.  That is cultural, if not ethnic, genocide.

So, side with Russia, and you side with genocide.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #909 on: July 11, 2023, 04:53:54 pm »
Russian general known personally by Putin is killed 'by British-supplied Storm Shadow missile'

Ukrainian and Russian sources reported the Tsokov had been killed in the attack
Britain supplied its long range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine earlier this year

By WILL STEWART and JAMES REYNOLDS
11 July 2023

Vladmir Putin has lost another top general 'in a strike by British supplied Storm Shadow missiles', according to both Ukrainian and Russian sources.

Lieutenant-General Oleg Tsokov, 51, was personally known to the dictator and had been sanctioned by Britain and the EU for his role in the war against Ukraine.

A Ukrainian claim today that the commander had been 'liquidated' was later supported by Russian channels with key military links.

Pro-war Russian Telegram channel Voenkory Russkoy Vesny admitted that 'as a result of the attack by Storm Shadow cruise missiles on the command post of the 58th Army in the Berdiansk region, Lt-Gen Oleg Tsokov [...] was killed.'

'Colleagues speak of Tsokov as a competent officer and a good commander.'

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12287455/Russian-general-known-personally-Putin-killed-British-supplied-Storm-Shadow-missile.html

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #910 on: July 11, 2023, 05:09:57 pm »
Russian general known personally by Putin is killed 'by British-supplied Storm Shadow missile'

Ukrainian and Russian sources reported the Tsokov had been killed in the attack
Britain supplied its long range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine earlier this year

By WILL STEWART and JAMES REYNOLDS
11 July 2023

Vladmir Putin has lost another top general 'in a strike by British supplied Storm Shadow missiles', according to both Ukrainian and Russian sources.

Lieutenant-General Oleg Tsokov, 51, was personally known to the dictator and had been sanctioned by Britain and the EU for his role in the war against Ukraine.

A Ukrainian claim today that the commander had been 'liquidated' was later supported by Russian channels with key military links.

Pro-war Russian Telegram channel Voenkory Russkoy Vesny admitted that 'as a result of the attack by Storm Shadow cruise missiles on the command post of the 58th Army in the Berdiansk region, Lt-Gen Oleg Tsokov [...] was killed.'

'Colleagues speak of Tsokov as a competent officer and a good commander.'

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12287455/Russian-general-known-personally-Putin-killed-British-supplied-Storm-Shadow-missile.html

To quote Inspector Clouseau....

"Not any more"

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #911 on: July 11, 2023, 06:49:54 pm »
Russian general known personally by Putin is killed 'by British-supplied Storm Shadow missile'

Ukrainian and Russian sources reported the Tsokov had been killed in the attack
Britain supplied its long range Storm Shadow missiles to Ukraine earlier this year

By WILL STEWART and JAMES REYNOLDS
11 July 2023

Vladmir Putin has lost another top general 'in a strike by British supplied Storm Shadow missiles', according to both Ukrainian and Russian sources.

Lieutenant-General Oleg Tsokov, 51, was personally known to the dictator and had been sanctioned by Britain and the EU for his role in the war against Ukraine.

A Ukrainian claim today that the commander had been 'liquidated' was later supported by Russian channels with key military links.

Pro-war Russian Telegram channel Voenkory Russkoy Vesny admitted that 'as a result of the attack by Storm Shadow cruise missiles on the command post of the 58th Army in the Berdiansk region, Lt-Gen Oleg Tsokov [...] was killed.'

'Colleagues speak of Tsokov as a competent officer and a good commander.'

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12287455/Russian-general-known-personally-Putin-killed-British-supplied-Storm-Shadow-missile.html


They lost another General again?  It's like a person who is a red-shirt in Star Trek.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #912 on: July 11, 2023, 06:52:17 pm »

They lost another General again?  It's like a person who is a red-shirt in Star Trek.

:mauslaff:

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #913 on: July 11, 2023, 07:16:01 pm »
The day in which Russia no longer exists will be a great day for humanity.

@ScottinVA

I THINK  you meant to write "Communism",NOT  "Russia". Russia existed a long time before the Communists took over,and will continue to exist once they are out of power and hiding in exile.

Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #914 on: July 11, 2023, 07:18:15 pm »
Cultural genocide.

@Kamaji

To replace all the Russian soldiers being killed now,in the future. Russia really doesn't have a large population,just a HUGE freaking country. The truth is this is the only way they can hope to replace the soldiers they are wasting today.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #915 on: July 11, 2023, 07:20:56 pm »
This is dated, but he lays out the statistics.  The amount of money that we have thrown at their war since Sen Paul took to the floor is absolutely ridiculous and unwarranted.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2uV4Q9R0bk

@libertybele

Yeah,too  hell with having our allies suffer all the human and property  losses while destroying the biggest danger to America,it's the money that counts,right?

MUCH MO BETTA to let the Soviets rebuild their strength by conquering other nations with assets already in production so they can remain strong while they try to weaken us,right?
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #916 on: July 11, 2023, 07:22:38 pm »
Always thought Russians were basically decent humble people, but if that's true, that's just evil.

Edit: the reason I assumed it was to be rehomed with Russian mothers, is the large amount of women on the Zoom call.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Do NOT confuse the typical Russian subject with their leadership.

How would YOU like it if people in other countries compared all Americans with  Biden?
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #917 on: July 11, 2023, 07:26:22 pm »

So even though Ukraine and Russia have been fighting for decades it's our war??? This goes way beyond 1994.


@libertybele

You are living proof of the old saying that "You can lead a horse to water,but you can't make him drink."

You have your mind made up and no amount of evidence in the world will convince you that you are just a surrender monkey.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #918 on: July 11, 2023, 07:29:52 pm »
How many Russians have died in Ukraine? Data shows what Moscow hides

 Nearly 50,000 Russian men have died in the war in Ukraine, according to the first independent statistical analysis of Russia’s war dead.


@libertybele

And THAT explains why the Russians are kidnapping Ukranian children and sending them to Russia. Their  population is so small they can't/won't have enough children through normal means to replace the ones being killed in this war.


Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #919 on: July 11, 2023, 07:34:56 pm »
@libertybele

Yeah,too  hell with having our allies suffer all the human and property  losses while destroying the biggest danger to America,it's the money that counts,right?

MUCH MO BETTA to let the Soviets rebuild their strength by conquering other nations with assets already in production so they can remain strong while they try to weaken us,right?

@sneakypete  No problem helping them but when the $$$ isn't appropriated to humanity or helping them win the war, then something is wrong. We run out of $$ or munitions, who then is going to help them or us??  Printing more money is not the answer.

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #920 on: July 11, 2023, 07:35:42 pm »

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #921 on: July 11, 2023, 07:40:57 pm »
@libertybele

You are living proof of the old saying that "You can lead a horse to water,but you can't make him drink."

You have your mind made up and no amount of evidence in the world will convince you that you are just a surrender monkey.

@sneakypete Surrender monkey?  How so?  We've sent over $75 BILLION and that still isn't enough for Z.  It still hasn't resolved the war. When do we stop the aid?  When we ourselves have depleted our own military and tanked our economy?  Common sense needs to come into play here -- and if that makes me a surrender monkey in your books. ....  Oh well, as you stated, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  You need to look at the entire picture, not just what the propagandist would have you believe.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #922 on: July 11, 2023, 07:51:53 pm »
@sneakypete  No problem helping them but when the $$$ isn't appropriated to humanity or helping them win the war, then something is wrong. We run out of $$ or munitions, who then is going to help them or us??  Printing more money is not the answer.

@libertybele

We are NOT going to run out of money or munitions. Almost all of the munitions  we have been supplying  are munitions that were to be destroyed soon anyhow,due to age.

Plus,it is FAR cheaper to fight a short war by proxy than it is to fight an extended actual war where you send your military off to fight and die.

Hell,we are spending more money on providing housing,food,medical care,and spending money on illegal aliens than we are on Ukraine.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #923 on: July 11, 2023, 07:57:14 pm »
@sneakypete[/member
Quote
] Surrender monkey?  How so?  We've sent over $75 BILLION and that still isn't enough for Z.


@libertybele

And you have been whining about it since day one.


Quote
It still hasn't resolved the war.


Well,we COULD follow your policy and surrender because it is cheaper to surrender than it is to fight.

Quote
When do we stop the aid?  When we ourselves have depleted our own military and tanked our economy? 

HorseHillary  squared. We stop the aid when Russia retreats behind their borders and we,along  with the other free nations have helped Ukraine rebuild so she can defend herself if Russia tries this again come the next generation.

Quote
Common sense needs to come into play here -- and if that makes me a surrender monkey in your books.
....

Yes,you ARE a surrender monkey,and No,you do NOT have any common sense because you are so afraid of fighting that you would surrender.

 
Quote
Oh well, as you stated, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  You need to look at the entire picture, not just what the propagandist would have you believe.
[/quote

How many wars have YOU fought in?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #924 on: July 11, 2023, 08:10:49 pm »
@sneakypete  so your answer is to keep printing money to support  a war that has been on going for decades??

There IS absolutely concern that we are drawing down our own munitions that could easily pose problems should we need them for ourselves .... China is just waiting in the wings .....

Again @sneakypete who is going to help Ukraine and us if we are attacked and our stockpiles are depleted and our economy continues to falter???

And no, I haven't fought in a war, (which you knew) so that makes me a surrender monkey?  Gottcha.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/politics/us-weapons-factories-ukraine-ammunition/index.html\

https://veteranlife.com/military-news/weapons-to-ukraine/

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/05/17/ukraine-aid-and-us-stockpiles-are-running-out-whats-next/

https://www.csis.org/analysis/united-states-running-out-weapons-send-ukraine

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-push-to-restock-howitzer-shells-rockets-sent-to-ukraine-bogs-down-f604511a

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/us/politics/military-weapons-ukraine-war.html




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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #925 on: July 11, 2023, 08:38:39 pm »
@sneakypete  so your answer is to keep printing money to support  a war that has been on going for decades??

There IS absolutely concern that we are drawing down our own munitions that could easily pose problems should we need them for ourselves .... China is just waiting in the wings .....

Again @sneakypete who is going to help Ukraine and us if we are attacked and our stockpiles are depleted and our economy continues to falter???

And no, I haven't fought in a war, (which you knew) so that makes me a surrender monkey?  Gottcha.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/17/politics/us-weapons-factories-ukraine-ammunition/index.html\

https://veteranlife.com/military-news/weapons-to-ukraine/

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/05/17/ukraine-aid-and-us-stockpiles-are-running-out-whats-next/

https://www.csis.org/analysis/united-states-running-out-weapons-send-ukraine

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-push-to-restock-howitzer-shells-rockets-sent-to-ukraine-bogs-down-f604511a

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/us/politics/military-weapons-ukraine-war.html

@libertybele



MOST of the munitions going there,if not ALL of them,are munitions from our stockpiles that is old and due to  be destroyed soon,anyhow.

IF we had a military that was actually able to fight these days,there would be no shortage of fresh munitions.

I know you have been told this before,and you  continue to ignore it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 10:24:19 am by mystery-ak »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #926 on: July 11, 2023, 08:47:41 pm »
@libertybele

Jethro Tull wrote a song about you.

"Thick as a Brick".

MOST of the munitions going there,if not ALL of them,are munitions from our stockpiles that is old and due to  be destroyed soon,anyhow.

IF we had a military that was actually able to fight these days,there would be no shortage of fresh munitions.

I know you have been told this before,and you  continue to ignore it.

That is what you say but the links that I provided say otherwise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #927 on: July 11, 2023, 09:08:55 pm »
That is what you say but the links that I provided say otherwise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218


If Ukraine kills an Orc now it will be worth long term
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #928 on: July 11, 2023, 09:40:06 pm »
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Ronald Reagan: “Rather than...talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems and make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit…earning here they pay taxes here.”

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #929 on: July 11, 2023, 09:56:28 pm »
That is what you say but the links that I provided say otherwise.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218

@libertybele

Uhhh,your links are from the BBC,not the US Military.
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Offline ScottinVA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #930 on: July 12, 2023, 09:03:49 am »
@ScottinVA

I THINK  you meant to write "Communism",NOT  "Russia". Russia existed a long time before the Communists took over,and will continue to exist once they are out of power and hiding in exile.

Nope.  Whether ruled by tsars, communists or the modern-day Putinist fascism, Russia has been aggressively expansionist, regardless of what type of government rules it.  The only period in which that was not the case was the Yeltsin era.  For all his faults, Boris Yeltsin made an attempt to avoid old Russian expansionist habits.  After Putin emerged, it began anew.  The world would be better off with a reduced, dismembered and weakened Russia that doesn't threaten its neighbors.

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #931 on: July 12, 2023, 09:06:06 am »

https://twitter.com/emperoreaganite/status/1678940885185187842

I completely agree.  Anything to level the playing field against the orcs who, by the way, have been using cluster munitions since Day 1 of the invasion.

Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #932 on: July 12, 2023, 09:44:13 am »
Nope.  Whether ruled by tsars, communists or the modern-day Putinist fascism, Russia has been aggressively expansionist, regardless of what type of government rules it.  The only period in which that was not the case was the Yeltsin era.  For all his faults, Boris Yeltsin made an attempt to avoid old Russian expansionist habits.  After Putin emerged, it began anew.  The world would be better off with a reduced, dismembered and weakened Russia that doesn't threaten its neighbors.


For us, this is a long-term investment.  Here is why...


Had we done nothing we could be facing a stronger Russia plus a strong Russia-China alliance. Therefore we have to spend crazy on our military to minimize a strong Russia-China alliance.


What we are doing now without any American troops is weakening Russia to the point that they have to use outdated tanks! After the war, it is going to take years to rebuild the Russian military in what is left of Russia.  Also after the war, the next big threat we will have to face will be China.


I would like to add one more thing. Had we done nothing, China would have invaded Taiwan. They were testing our response after the Afagnistan withdrawal fiasco and I think they have guessed wrong.
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #933 on: July 12, 2023, 09:45:18 am »

For us, this is a long-term investment.  Here is why...


Had we done nothing we could be facing a stronger Russia plus a strong Russia-China alliance. Therefore we have to spend crazy on our military to minimize a strong Russia-China alliance.


What we are doing now without any American troops is weakening Russia to the point that they have to use outdated tanks! After the war, it is going to take years to rebuild the Russian military in what is left of Russia.  Also after the war, the next big threat we will have to face will be China.


I would like to add one more thing. Had we done nothing, China would have invaded Taiwan. They were testing our response after the Afagnistan withdrawal fiasco and I think they have guessed wrong.

:thumbsup:

Offline ScottinVA

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #934 on: July 12, 2023, 09:48:21 am »

For us, this is a long-term investment.  Here is why...


Had we done nothing we could be facing a stronger Russia plus a strong Russia-China alliance. Therefore we have to spend crazy on our military to minimize a strong Russia-China alliance.


What we are doing now without any American troops is weakening Russia to the point that they have to use outdated tanks! After the war, it is going to take years to rebuild the Russian military in what is left of Russia.  Also after the war, the next big threat we will have to face will be China.


I would like to add one more thing. Had we done nothing, China would have invaded Taiwan. They were testing our response after the Afagnistan withdrawal fiasco and I think they have guessed wrong.

I could not agree more.  The nightmare scenario is an aggressive, strong Russia-China alliance.  A severely weakened Russia will be to the benefit of all.

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #935 on: July 12, 2023, 10:17:53 am »
No personal attacks, please.
I am not and never have been a leftist.

If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #936 on: July 12, 2023, 10:33:20 am »
Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin likely dead, Putin meeting probably faked, retired general says

By Snejana Farberov
July 12, 2023

Mutinous Wagner mercenary group boss Yevgeny Prigozhin is likely either dead or jailed, and his much-publicized meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin after his botched rebellion was probably faked, according to a former senior US military leader.

Retired Gen. Robert Abrams, an ABC News contributor who previously served as the commander of US Forces Korea, shared his thoughts on Prigozhin’s uncertain fate in the aftermath of the Wagner Group’s short-lived armed insurrection last month.

“My personal assessment is that I doubt we’ll see Prigozhin ever again publicly,” Abrams told ABC News. “I think he’ll either be put in hiding, or sent to prison, or dealt with some other way, but I doubt we’ll ever see him again.”

Asked if he thought the billionaire businessman was alive after posing the most significant challenge to Putin’s regime since he came to power in 1999, Abrams said: “I personally don’t think he is, and if he is, he’s in a prison somewhere.”

The retired four-star general also raised doubts about a meeting that, according to Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, Putin held with Prigozhin and all his senior Wagner commanders on June 29, five days after the aborted mutiny.

*  *  *

Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/07/12/us-general-doubts-yevgeny-prizgozhin-is-alive/

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #937 on: July 12, 2023, 10:55:39 am »
Zelensky says World War III fear ‘logical’ as NATO holds off on admitting Ukraine

By Steven Nelson
July 12, 2023

VILNIUS, Lithuania — Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Wednesday that it was “logical” that some NATO leaders fear sparking World War III by admitting his country while it’s at war with Russia — striking a conciliatory tone one day after he blasted the alliance for not offering Ukraine membership.

Zelensky, however, did argue at a press conference with NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg that an invitation to join still was appropriate immediately because of the “signals” it would send.

“We understand that someone is afraid of talking about our membership now because nobody is willing to have a world war, which is logical and understandable,” Zelensky said through a translator hours before a scheduled sit-down with President Biden at NATO’s annual conference.

“I want everyone to understand that we are a civilized and adequate people. Ukraine is fighting and it truly understands that Ukraine cannot be a member nation of NATO as long as the war continues on our territory.”

But the Ukrainian leader added that “signals are important” and likened a potential NATO membership offer to his country’s European Union candidacy status, which the EU extended shortly after Russia’s invasion in February of last year.

*  *  *

Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/07/12/zelensky-says-world-war-iii-fear-logical-as-nato-holds-off-on-admitting-ukraine/

Offline mystery-ak

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #938 on: July 12, 2023, 11:29:05 am »
'We are going to be there as long as it takes': Joe Biden vows to stand by Ukraine after G7 offers new security deal for Kyiv just one day after Volodymyr Zelensky's furious outburst over 'absurd' NATO delay

'We are going to be there as long as it takes': Joe Biden vows to stand by Ukraine after G7 offers new security deal for Kyiv just one day after Volodymyr Zelensky's furious outburst over 'absurd' NATO delay

    Biden issued a rallying cry to back Kyiv's armed forces alongside fellow G7 leaders
    The world's leading economies vowed to provide 'long-term' security aid to the war-torn nation
    The announcement came a day after Ukraine's leader unleashed a social media tirade slamming the move not to offer his country a pathway to join NATO

By James Franey, Senior U.S. Political Reporter For Dailymail.Com

Published: 09:49 EDT, 12 July 2023 | Updated: 11:00 EDT, 12 July 2023

President Joe Biden vowed to stand by Ukraine 'as long as it takes' as he and fellow G7 leaders announced a new security deal for Kyiv.

It came just one day after Volodymyr Zelensky launched a social media tirade against his Western allies over what he called an 'absurd' delay to setting out a pathway to his country's full membership of the NATO military alliance.

'We are going to be there as long as it takes,' Biden said in a speech flanked by fellow leaders from the G7, a club of the world's richest economies that includes Britain and France.

'We are going to help Ukraine build a strong and capable defense across land, air and sea,' he added, insisting the Ukrainian military would be 'a force of stability in the region.'

more
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12291441/We-going-long-takes-Joe-Biden-vows-stand-Ukraine.html
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #939 on: July 12, 2023, 12:07:44 pm »
Wagner chief Prigozhin 'had been treated for stomach cancer and felt he had nothing to lose when he decided to launch mutiny'

The Wagner Group leader turned his forces against the Russian Army on June 23

By JAMES REYNOLDS
12 July 2023

Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin's battle with cancer may have played a role in his decision to launch an apparent mutiny against Moscow, a report has claimed.

Proekt, a Russian outlet now banned by Russia, originally cited claims from Prigozhin's former employees saying he had undergone treatment for cancer.

They said his stomach cancer was now in remission after a 'long time' undergoing 'serious therapy'.

One former worker said that the march towards Moscow at the end of last month could show the mindset of a man with little to lose.

Asked what might have prompted the armed rebellion, one anonymous source said: 'This is a man with a cut-out stomach and intestines!'

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12291651/Prigozhins-Moscow-mutiny-driven-battle-cancer-former-employees-say.html

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #940 on: July 12, 2023, 12:09:45 pm »
Ukraine F-16 fighter pilot training to start soon in Romania

Ukraine’s defence minister says he hopes training lasts no longer than 6 months so fighter planes can be in combat against Russia soon.

12 Jul 2023

The training of Ukrainian pilots on United States-made F-16 fighter jets is to begin in Romania in August, officials have said on the sidelines of the NATO summit in Lithuania.

Ukrainian Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov announced the Romania training programme on Tuesday alongside Dutch Defence Minister Kajsa Ollongren and Denmark’s acting Defence Minister Troels Lund Poulsen.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/12/ukraine-f-16-fighter-pilot-training-to-start-soon-in-romania

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #941 on: July 12, 2023, 02:09:11 pm »

For us, this is a long-term investment.  Here is why...


Had we done nothing we could be facing a stronger Russia plus a strong Russia-China alliance. Therefore we have to spend crazy on our military to minimize a strong Russia-China alliance.


What we are doing now without any American troops is weakening Russia to the point that they have to use outdated tanks! After the war, it is going to take years to rebuild the Russian military in what is left of Russia.  Also after the war, the next big threat we will have to face will be China.


I would like to add one more thing. Had we done nothing, China would have invaded Taiwan. They were testing our response after the Afagnistan withdrawal fiasco and I think they have guessed wrong.

 :amen:

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #942 on: July 12, 2023, 02:35:40 pm »
Nope.  Whether ruled by tsars, communists or the modern-day Putinist fascism, Russia has been aggressively expansionist, regardless of what type of government rules it.  The only period in which that was not the case was the Yeltsin era.  For all his faults, Boris Yeltsin made an attempt to avoid old Russian expansionist habits.  After Putin emerged, it began anew.  The world would be better off with a reduced, dismembered and weakened Russia that doesn't threaten its neighbors.

@ScottinVA

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Russia has pretty much always been an isolationist state. Even the Czars didn't want any outside influences other than foreign royalty that was related to them.

Truth to tell,Russia has pretty much been a police state for her entire existence.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #943 on: July 12, 2023, 02:37:26 pm »
@ScottinVA

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Russia has pretty much always been an isolationist state. Even the Czars didn't want any outside influences other than foreign royalty that was related to them.

Truth to tell,Russia has pretty much been a police state for her entire existence.


Uhmm, I'm pretty sure you didn't read what was in fact written.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #944 on: July 12, 2023, 02:38:10 pm »

For us, this is a long-term investment.  Here is why...


Had we done nothing we could be facing a stronger Russia plus a strong Russia-China alliance. Therefore we have to spend crazy on our military to minimize a strong Russia-China alliance.


What we are doing now without any American troops is weakening Russia to the point that they have to use outdated tanks! After the war, it is going to take years to rebuild the Russian military in what is left of Russia.  Also after the war, the next big threat we will have to face will be China.


I would like to add one more thing. Had we done nothing, China would have invaded Taiwan. They were testing our response after the Afagnistan withdrawal fiasco and I think they have guessed wrong.

@kevindavis007

This all seems so blindingly obvious that if Ray Charles were still alive,he would have to put on his darkest shades to look at it.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #945 on: July 12, 2023, 02:41:38 pm »
Top Russian general ‘liquidated’ by Storm Shadow missile in Ukraine: report

By Snejana Farberov
July 12, 2023

A high-ranking Russian general has been killed in a Storm Shadow missile strike in an occupied Ukrainian city, according to reports from both countries.

Lieutenant General Oleg Tsokov died Monday when a barrage of cruise missiles obliterated the Dune Hotel in Berdiansk in the southern Zaporizhzhia region, where Russian military commanders had been quartered.

“It is reported that today in the Berdiansk area, the Russian Lieutenant General Oleg Yuriyovych Tsokov was liquidated,” Petro Andriushchenko, adviser to the Ukrainian mayor of Mariupol, gleefully wrote in his Telegram channel.

Andriushchenko noted that in September 2022, Tsokov, then commander of Russia’s 144th Motorized Rifle Division, had been gravely wounded in action but survived.

“Now they say that his mobilization into the grave has been completed,” the mayor’s advisor darkly joked.

*  *  *

Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/07/12/top-russian-general-oleg-tsokov-liquidated-by-storm-shadow-missile-in-ukraine-report/

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #946 on: July 12, 2023, 02:42:32 pm »
'We are going to be there as long as it takes': Joe Biden vows to stand by Ukraine after G7 offers new security deal for Kyiv just one day after Volodymyr Zelensky's furious outburst over 'absurd' NATO delay

'We are going to be there as long as it takes': Joe Biden vows to stand by Ukraine after G7 offers new security deal for Kyiv just one day after Volodymyr Zelensky's furious outburst over 'absurd' NATO delay

    Biden issued a rallying cry to back Kyiv's armed forces alongside fellow G7 leaders
    The world's leading economies vowed to provide 'long-term' security aid to the war-torn nation
    The announcement came a day after Ukraine's leader unleashed a social media tirade slamming the move not to offer his country a pathway to join NATO

By James Franey, Senior U.S. Political Reporter For Dailymail.Com

 

@mystery-ak

I CAN'T be the only one wondering how much had to be added to one of his offshore banking accounts for THAT to have happened.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline mystery-ak

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #947 on: July 12, 2023, 04:28:07 pm »
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #948 on: July 12, 2023, 04:39:55 pm »
:mauslaff:

"Resting" - nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


Russia’s ‘General Armageddon,’ not seen since Wagner mutiny, is ‘resting,’ lawmaker says

By Snejana Farberov
July 12, 2023

General Sergei Surovikin, the deputy commander of Russia’s military operations in Ukraine who has not been seen in public since last month’s failed uprising by the Wagner Group, is “resting,” according to a senior lawmaker.

Andrei Kartapolov, head of the State Duma Defense Committee, was heard telling a reporter in a video posted on social media Wednesday: “Surovikin is currently resting. [He is] not available for now.”

Kartapolov’s flippant response to a question about Surovikin’s status echoed previous comments reported by various Telegram news channels, saying that the general was resting “in one of the Caucasus resorts.”

Meanwhile, the independent Russian Telegram news channel Verstka reported Wednesday, citing anonymous sources, that Surovikin has been detained and questioned by the counterintelligence arm of the FSB, Russia’s security service, on suspicion of taking part in the organization of the Wagner Group’s insurrection. But so far, he has not been charged with any crime.

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Source:  https://nypost.com/2023/07/12/general-sergei-surovikin-is-resting-russian-lawmaker-says/

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #949 on: July 12, 2023, 06:35:52 pm »
Very peacefully no doubt.