Author Topic: Ukraine 4  (Read 521291 times)

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Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #600 on: June 23, 2023, 11:49:42 pm »
The live video above claims that Wagner group is currently surrounding the Russian military headquarters. How do we know it isn't Russian soldiers?

Right now, we don't know. Lots of soldiers and military vehicles in the city, lots of road closures, lots of warnings to the citizens to avoid the city center and stay in their homes... but no fighting yet, or at least no videos of fighting posted, yet. It's a very confusing situation for sure.
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #601 on: June 23, 2023, 11:55:02 pm »
Still no clarity on what's going on.

Why would Wagner group announce where they're going ahead of time? Major head fake?
To give people a little time to sort out whether they want to try to change things, or go into the Ukrainian meat-grinder with Russian guns at their backs...
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #602 on: June 23, 2023, 11:55:49 pm »
Still no clarity on what's going on.

Why would Wagner group announce where they're going ahead of time? Major head fake?

@DB

I SUSPECT it was an effort to gain some support from deserting soldiers and the Russian public.

Just guessing,though.

Frankly,even though I know this is happening,it is still hard for me to believe.  We can only imagine how hard it is for the typical Russian to believe,regardless of which  side they  may  favor.

Then again,even the Russians know that very little of what the Politburo crowd puts out has any  truth at all connected to  it. An example is a friend I made in Russia loved to say "We pretend to work,and they  pretend to pay  us." He was a university professor.

Of course,I was in Russia a LONG time ago (right after the alleged collapse of communism),and who knows how much has changed in all these years that have passed?
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #603 on: June 24, 2023, 12:17:02 am »
My guess it is Russian troops surrounding the Russian military headquarters and not Wagner, based on essentially zero resistance.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #604 on: June 24, 2023, 12:31:30 am »
My guess it is Russian troops surrounding the Russian military headquarters and not Wagner, based on essentially zero resistance.

@DB

I dunno. Given the current situation,the Russian troops might be more afraid of the Politburo and Putin than they are Wagner.

Remember,the Soviet Army is an army  that used NKVD "blocking troops" to the rear of the lines to gun down any Soviet Soldier that refused to advance into the German gunfire.

It is no secret that the only human life the Soviet leadership gives a squat about is there own.
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #605 on: June 24, 2023, 12:33:35 am »
All kinds of stories flying around but little confirmed.

Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #606 on: June 24, 2023, 12:37:32 am »
A video is being posted to several Telegram channels, purporting to show Prigozhin meeting with a Russian Deputy Defense Minister at the military headquarters in Rostov. Not known yet if this video is legit, and if it is legit what they were meeting about.   :shrug:
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #607 on: June 24, 2023, 12:38:13 am »
If any of this is true, Putin is done.

Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #608 on: June 24, 2023, 12:43:46 am »
Prigozhin can't remove Russia's top military leaders while Putin remains in power. It puts Putin second in command.

Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #609 on: June 24, 2023, 12:45:54 am »
A video is being posted to several Telegram channels, purporting to show Prigozhin meeting with a Russian Deputy Defense Minister at the military headquarters in Rostov. Not known yet if this video is legit, and if it is legit what they were meeting about.   :shrug:

Making a deal with the Russian military to remove Russia's top military leaders - including Putin - is the only thing that makes any sense, if in fact this is happening.

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #610 on: June 24, 2023, 12:56:31 am »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #611 on: June 24, 2023, 12:57:27 am »
Making a deal with the Russian military to remove Russia's top military leaders - including Putin - is the only thing that makes any sense, if in fact this is happening.

It may have all been a big show, because now people are claiming that the tanks are moving *out* of Rostov. I guess Prigozhin got what he wanted?   :shrug:  It is all very strange!
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #612 on: June 24, 2023, 01:01:58 am »
So Wagner is claiming control of the military headquarters and that those were his troops and tanks.

I don't see how it is possible that he could remove Putin's top generals by force and Putin remain in power. It is a direct challenge to his authority.

The Russian military may also have had enough dying for nothing.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 01:32:18 am by DB »

Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #613 on: June 24, 2023, 01:18:58 am »
Again, if this is true, and it appears to be - Putin has to be on his way out. No one has heard anything from Putin while all this is going on.

So who will be the next leader???

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #614 on: June 24, 2023, 01:47:29 am »
Again, if this is true, and it appears to be - Putin has to be on his way out. No one has heard anything from Putin while all this is going on.

So who will be the next leader???

@DB

Hell,who is the leader now that Pooty-Poot is in hiding?

Is his  yacht still there?

What about his private jet?

Does he speak and Chinese?
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #615 on: June 24, 2023, 01:55:15 am »
@DB

Hell,who is the leader now that Pooty-Poot is in hiding?

Is his  yacht still there?

What about his private jet?

Does he speak and Chinese?

He's supposed to give a speech to the nation in 6 minutes.

Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #616 on: June 24, 2023, 01:55:21 am »
Reports say that Putin will make an address shortly. No indication what he is going to say.
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #617 on: June 24, 2023, 02:09:39 am »
No Putin speech yet.

It sounds like the Russian military is siding with Wagner as they travel towards Moscow.

Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #618 on: June 24, 2023, 02:12:25 am »
Will Putin still be alive in 24 hours?

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #619 on: June 24, 2023, 02:19:02 am »
No Putin speech yet.

It sounds like the Russian military is siding with Wagner as they travel towards Moscow.

@DB

Well,he has a private yacht that is said to be the largest yacht in the world,and he also has a jet airliner,so if he has made it to the safety of either and he has left the port or the terminal,he has a good chance of getting away.

Hell,if he gets away in the yacht,he can sell that for enough to provide for his family for generations,although come to think of it,there is no such thing as private property in the USSR because the State owns everything,so they can get the yacht or the jet back.

Wouldn't it be great to see him polishing shoes on a street corner in France ,hoping to get enough money to  buy dinner?

 [/size][/size]
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 02:20:52 am by sneakypete »
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #620 on: June 24, 2023, 02:21:43 am »
@DB

Well,he has a private yacht that is said to be the largest yacht in the world,and he also has a jet airliner,so if he has made it to the safety of either and he has left the port or the terminal,he has a good chance of getting away.

Hell,if he gets away in the yacht,he can sell that for enough to provide for his family for generations,although come to think of it,there is no such thing as private property in the USSR because the State owns everything,so they can get the yacht or the jet back.

If the military turns on him, it would seem unlikely he'd get away. The yacht is worthless as a getaway vehicle. An airplane will be tracked with modern technology.

Offline Gefn

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #621 on: June 24, 2023, 02:31:23 am »
Wagner Boss Says He’s ‘Ready to Die’ With 25,000 Fighters


Quote




Moscow has launched anti-terrorist operations as Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin says he is “ready to die” with 25,000 fighters prepared to stage a mutiny and stop the “evil” leading the war effort.

After months of feuding between the mercenary boss and Russia’s Defense Ministry, things came to a head Friday when Prigozhin accused the Russian military of ordering a rocket strike on a camp full of his men, and vowed merciless revenge.

Within hours, the Prosecutor General’s Office announced charges against Prigozhin for attempting to incite an armed rebellion, a crime that carries a maximum penalty of 20 years behind bars. Top Russian military brass released video appeals calling on Prigozhin to surrender, or for his own men to detain him and hand him over. State-run media aired an emergency broadcast relaying the same message.



https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/feud-between-moscow-wagner-group-214329810.html
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #622 on: June 24, 2023, 02:32:08 am »
The Russian air force had to have stood down in order for Wagner to use the main freeway to move large numbers of troops/armored vehicles going towards Moscow.

Offline Gefn

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #623 on: June 24, 2023, 02:33:11 am »
Wagner Troops Take Over Military Headquarters in Southern Russia as Mutiny Spreads


https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-shoots-down-russian-cruise-missile-barrage-9d9da03a

(Video story)
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #624 on: June 24, 2023, 02:36:42 am »
Pretty amazing... The Russian general who bombed Wagner troops essentially started a revolt that in turn looks likely to topple Putin. A strange turn of events...

Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #625 on: June 24, 2023, 03:04:12 am »
Putin speaking now, talking about Wagner group "mutiny", "stab in the back", "we will defend our Motherland", "this is treason", etc.

Interesting, I don't know that the speech was live, it may have been recorded. The feed that I saw had a static photo of Putin, not a live shot.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 03:07:45 am by Ghost Bear »
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #626 on: June 24, 2023, 03:06:43 am »
Putin says its "treason" so there will be no compromise with Wagner.

It sounds like the Russian military is not resisting Wagner as its troops travel towards Moscow.

If that is the case, Putin is done.


Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #627 on: June 24, 2023, 03:09:15 am »
Putin says its "treason" so there will be no compromise with Wagner.

It sounds like the Russian military is not resisting Wagner as its troops travel towards Moscow.

If that is the case, Putin is done.

I agree, this may actually be the beginning of Putin's end. Fascinating to watch in real time.
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Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #628 on: June 24, 2023, 03:12:14 am »
The revolution is on...

Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #629 on: June 24, 2023, 03:27:11 am »
As Wagner takes over key locations in various cities essentially unopposed on their way to Moscow there's a risk of their force becoming too thin. Once they're spread out over a wide area if the Russian army suddenly turns on them they can be taken out all at once. It all comes down to where the Russian military loyalties lie. We're going to find out pretty soon.

Offline DB

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #630 on: June 24, 2023, 03:29:06 am »

Offline Gefn

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #631 on: June 24, 2023, 03:32:15 am »
Live blog : Putin accuses Wagner group of 'treason' in national address
24/06/2023 - 09:11



https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230624-live-moscow-accuses-wagner-head-of-mutiny-he-says-his-forces-enter-russia
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #632 on: June 24, 2023, 07:32:44 am »
I agree, this may actually be the beginning of Putin's end. Fascinating to watch in real time.


Well, whoever replaces Putin I hope the person isn't worse than Putin.


I am seeing that China is concerned about the situation in Russia.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #633 on: June 24, 2023, 07:35:24 am »
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #634 on: June 24, 2023, 07:41:56 am »
There are reports that Lukashenko has left Belarus





https://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1672420961138757639
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #635 on: June 24, 2023, 07:44:28 am »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #636 on: June 24, 2023, 07:45:39 am »
If the military turns on him, it would seem unlikely he'd get away. The yacht is worthless as a getaway vehicle. An airplane will be tracked with modern technology.

@DB

Maybe I am wrong,but I THINK  that all he has to do is get out of Russia and apply  for diplomatic immunity. I have no doubt at all that China would give him a safe place to stay,and there may be other countries who would do the same. Former Police state leaders seem to look out  for each other.

NOT saying he won't get whacked while walking down the street if he sets up shop in Paris or some other European nation,but he would be as safe as a baby in his mother's arms if he flees to China,and he would be treated like Royalty in China.

How freaking ironic is THAT?

I am GUESSING that he MIGHT be safe in some South American nations,but I know next to nothing about them,other than Cuba. He might not even be safe in Cuba since the Communist regime there is so dependent on Russia for aide.

Then again,thee and me don't NEED to know these things,but I am reasonably certain that Pooty-Poot has been giving this sort of thing a lot of consideration recently. There can be no doubt there are a  LOT of Russians who would love  to get their hands on him,and I am not talking about officials.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 07:47:23 am by sneakypete »
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #637 on: June 24, 2023, 07:51:09 am »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #638 on: June 24, 2023, 07:51:13 am »
Wagner Boss Says He’s ‘Ready to Die’ With 25,000 Fighters

 .....Top Russian military brass released video appeals calling on Prigozhin to surrender, or for his own men to detain him and hand him over. State-run media aired an emergency broadcast relaying the same message.......

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/feud-between-moscow-wagner-group-214329810.html

@Gefn

It looks like the top Soviet bosses are starting to lose control and getting scared. If their own dog can turn on them,so can their serfs.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #639 on: June 24, 2023, 07:52:05 am »
@DB

Maybe I am wrong,but I THINK  that all he has to do is get out of Russia and apply  for diplomatic immunity. I have no doubt at all that China would give him a safe place to stay,and there may be other countries who would do the same. Former Police state leaders seem to look out  for each other.

NOT saying he won't get whacked while walking down the street if he sets up shop in Paris or some other European nation,but he would be as safe as a baby in his mother's arms if he flees to China,and he would be treated like Royalty in China.

How freaking ironic is THAT?

I am GUESSING that he MIGHT be safe in some South American nations,but I know next to nothing about them,other than Cuba. He might not even be safe in Cuba since the Communist regime there is so dependent on Russia for aide.

Then again,thee and me don't NEED to know these things,but I am reasonably certain that Pooty-Poot has been giving this sort of thing a lot of consideration recently. There can be no doubt there are a  LOT of Russians who would love  to get their hands on him,and I am not talking about officials.


@sneakypete


My guess is that he will go to China.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #640 on: June 24, 2023, 07:53:21 am »
The Russian air force had to have stood down in order for Wagner to use the main freeway to move large numbers of troops/armored vehicles going towards Moscow.

@DB

Good point

And a VERY important one,given that it shows that at least one segment  of the Soviet military wants Putin gone.

There is no such  critter as a dictator that can survive without the support of his military.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 07:54:12 am by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #641 on: June 24, 2023, 07:58:54 am »
Putin speaking now, talking about Wagner group "mutiny", "stab in the back", "we will defend our Motherland", "this is treason", etc.

Interesting, I don't know that the speech was live, it may have been recorded. The feed that I saw had a static photo of Putin, not a live shot.

@Ghost Bear

Well,it has  been reported that he is having some health issues for the last year or so,and this can't help.

Has anyone seen any live videos of him doing the normal "meet and greet" sort of thing that national leaders are always doing?
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Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #642 on: June 24, 2023, 07:59:24 am »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline Hoodat

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If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #644 on: June 24, 2023, 08:01:59 am »
Putin says its "treason" so there will be no compromise with Wagner.

It sounds like the Russian military is not resisting Wagner as its troops travel towards Moscow.

If that is the case, Putin is done.

@DB

Yup,and there SHOULD be a lot of political maneuvering going on in the background as people start maneuvering for the "soon to be open" top spot. 
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #645 on: June 24, 2023, 08:05:39 am »
As Wagner takes over key locations in various cities essentially unopposed on their way to Moscow there's a risk of their force becoming too thin. Once they're spread out over a wide area if the Russian army suddenly turns on them they can be taken out all at once. It all comes down to where the Russian military loyalties lie. We're going to find out pretty soon.

@DB

Good point,but I suspect there  is no one in Russia that the military hates more at this point.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #646 on: June 24, 2023, 08:08:45 am »
Live blog : Putin accuses Wagner group of 'treason' in national address
24/06/2023 - 09:11



https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230624-live-moscow-accuses-wagner-head-of-mutiny-he-says-his-forces-enter-russia

@Gefn

Putin is a Soviet Dictator,and the last thing a dictator needs to do is expose himself as a paper tiger. For a dictator,which  is what ALL Soviet rulers have been,to say something like that shows desperation.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #647 on: June 24, 2023, 08:11:47 am »

Well, whoever replaces Putin I hope the person isn't worse than Putin.


I am seeing that China is concerned about the situation in Russia.

"Concerned" as in wondering if now is the time for them to move in on the basicially  unguarded resources of coastal Russia.

BTW,the whole "Eastern Russia and Western Russia has always had me confused. WHAT is the part of Russia that is closest to Alaska ,eastern or western Russia?
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #648 on: June 24, 2023, 08:14:50 am »

https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/1672567432773263360

@kevindavis007

Moscow has  always been a protected city  ever since the Communists took over from the Czars. Anyone that wants to live and work there needs special permission. Don't forget,the USSR is not a place where you can just move somewhere and rent an apartment because  ALL the housing belongs to the state,so the state is your landlord.

Not even Russian soldiers that lost a limb or were blinded during WW-2 that were born and lived their whole lives in Moscow were allowed to live  there after WW-2.  The Soviets had an image of Moscow/life in Russia that they wanted to project upon the world,and that image did not include crippled veterans.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 08:18:46 am by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine 4
« Reply #649 on: June 24, 2023, 08:14:55 am »
Putin is a Soviet Dictator,and the last thing a dictator needs to do is expose himself as a paper tiger. For a dictator,which  is what ALL Soviet rulers have been,to say something like that shows desperation.

Agreed.  There is no backing out for Putin now.  No chance of negotiation with Prigozhin.  One does not come to terms with "traitors".  Putin has backed himself into a corner.  Lukashenko has fled Belarus.  Shoigu is rounding up what military units are left and sending them to Moscow.  I hope Ukraine can take advantage of this.
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