Ukraine 3

[bilo]

But that isn't what Gaetz demanded. He wants peace through capitulation to the aggressor.

He won't get support for that, but he will move the demands from Congress more to his position demanding better oversight.

If our goal in supporting Ukraine is to help them push the invaders out why haven't we given them the missiles that can take out the bridge and train line that connects Crimea to Russia? Increasingly it looks like we give them just enough to keep fighting, but not enough to win. If that's the case a negotiated settlement, no matter how distasteful, seems the better way to go.

[sneakypete]

He won't get support for that, but he will move the demands from Congress more to his position demanding better oversight.

If our goal in supporting Ukraine is to help them push the invaders out why haven't we given them the missiles that can take out the bridge and train line that connects Crimea to Russia? Increasingly it looks like we give them just enough to keep fighting, but not enough to win. If that's the case a negotiated settlement, no matter how distasteful, seems the better way to go.

The whores in the DNC and some of their RINO butt-buddies want to keep the war going so their kickbacks keep flowing in. A vicgtory by either side of a peace settlement would be ruination for them.

[bilo]

@bilo

Are you kidding? Those clowns need adult babysitters.

AND.....we either help the Europeans stop the Neo-Soviet Union from invading and taking over Europe,or they will be more powerful than ever,and coming after us in just a few years.

The irony here is that Slow Joe and the whores in Congress have sold out America to the Chinese to the point where China may come to our defense in order to keep full-employment making and selling American goods to Americans.

The America First movement has done more open peoples eyes and to prioritize America than the Neo-Con Rino's ever did. We should not allow the military industrial complex and their Neo-Con allies get us involved in endless wars. If we are going to come to the aid of a nation that has been invaded then the path to what we intend to accomplish should be clearly articulated and the necessary force/equipment should be provided.

[bilo]

The whores in the DNC and some of their RINO butt-buddies want to keep the war going so their kickbacks keep flowing in. A vicgtory by either side of a peace settlement would be ruination for them.

Now you're starting to see the point I'm getting at. The worst thing we do in getting involved in these fights is just letting them drag on. If that's all we are going to do than just negotiate a peace deal. If the goal is to actually force the invaders out then give the country we support the tools to do it. This is why I want the POTUS to publicly declare to Congress just what the goal in Ukraine is and I want the Congress to oversee what is sent to accomplish that goal and to publicly question why other resources aren't being sent.

[massadvj]

If the invasion of Ukraine by the Russians is such a threat to Europe, why is the USA bearing the brunt of the costs instead of the Europeans?  We should be the resource of LAST resort to Europe, not FIRST resort.  I don't know for certain whether we would be in this war if Trump was in office, but I am certain that Trump would be getting more from the Europeans in exchange for our involvement.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

If the invasion of Ukraine by the Russians is such a threat to Europe, why is the USA bearing the brunt of the costs instead of the Europeans?  We should be the resource of LAST resort to Europe, not FIRST resort.  I don't know for certain whether we would be in this war if Trump was in office, but I am certain that Trump would be getting more from the Europeans in exchange for our involvement.

Not all of the Europeans care.  The German government generally is annoyed by the more independently-minded Poles, Baltics, etc., and probably wouldn't mind letting them get torched as well. They value their own economy over the lives of non-Germans.

But the Poles, British, Norwegians, and Baltics all are provided a higher level of GDP per capita support than we are.  Czechs and Slovaks are right behind us.

I think the Russians would have been less likely to have invaded if Trump had been President.  But I also think he would have been much more likely to have abandoned the Ukrainians once an invasion did happen.

[Bigun]

If the invasion of Ukraine by the Russians is such a threat to Europe, why is the USA bearing the brunt of the costs instead of the Europeans?  We should be the resource of LAST resort to Europe, not FIRST resort.  I don't know for certain whether we would be in this war if Trump was in office, but I am certain that Trump would be getting more from the Europeans in exchange for our involvement.

 

I'm pretty sure I said something similar on this thread many pages back.

[Hoodat]

I don't know for certain whether we would be in this war if Trump was in office, but I am certain that Trump would be getting more from the Europeans in exchange for our involvement.

Trump would also be getting more bang for the buck.  Instead of funneling off tens of billions to the State Dept  and DoD, Trump would have used a fraction of that amount to arm Ukraine better and sooner than Biden has done.  Trump also would not have blocked weapons transfers from Poland and Slovenia to Ukraine.

Biden is using this war as an excuse to send huge payoffs to political allies.  But he is not about bringing a rapid end to this war, and has no intention of securing a Ukrainian victory.  His only goal is regime change in Russia, but he is going about it all wrong.

[bilo]

If the invasion of Ukraine by the Russians is such a threat to Europe, why is the USA bearing the brunt of the costs instead of the Europeans?  We should be the resource of LAST resort to Europe, not FIRST resort.  I don't know for certain whether we would be in this war if Trump was in office, but I am certain that Trump would be getting more from the Europeans in exchange for our involvement.

FWIW, after the war in Ukraine is resolved the USA should pull our troops out of Europe.

[sneakypete]

Now you're starting to see the point I'm getting at. The worst thing we do in getting involved in these fights is just letting them drag on. If that's all we are going to do than just negotiate a peace deal. If the goal is to actually force the invaders out then give the country we support the tools to do it. This is why I want the POTUS to publicly declare to Congress just what the goal in Ukraine is and I want the Congress to oversee what is sent to accomplish that goal and to publicly question why other resources aren't being sent.

@bilo

Pissing in the wind. That senile old SOB,who was a borderline retard even BEFORE he went senile,makes no decisions. He just TRIES to repeat what his coaches have been trying to drill into his head for a week before he gives a speech.

The fact that the RNC hasn't declared that the current President is senile and needs to be removed from office is shame laid at THEIR doorsteps. Granted,they have no desire to see a lucid replacement,but that is playing politics with the safety of the nation,as well as our bank balance,which the Dims are draining as fast as they can.

[sneakypete]

If the invasion of Ukraine by the Russians is such a threat to Europe, why is the USA bearing the brunt of the costs instead of the Europeans?

The US has been bearing the brunt of financing not  only the rebuilding of the Western European armies,but even rebuilding their cities since since the end of WW-2.

We did this because no one else was in a position to do so,given that we did not have to rebuild America,but we had a standing army that would/did force the Soviets to stop their military attempt to take over all of Europe.

THIS was/is because if all of Europe became Communist,our own economy would fail. Which,of course,would lead to our government failing. Guess what THAT would lead to.



 

We should be the resource of LAST resort to Europe, not FIRST resort.

Oh,Horse Hillary! Did you NOT take any history courses in publik skools,or collige? We are the ONLY nation in the world in a position to do this in order to prevent the collapse of freedom in Europe due to a massive Soviet invasion,which,once again,means the US would be left standing alone with no allies to help us.

 

I don't know for certain whether we would be in this war if Trump was in office, but I am certain that Trump would be getting more from the Europeans in exchange for our involvement.

I will give you a "probably" on that one. 

[Hoodat]

Now you're starting to see the point I'm getting at. The worst thing we do in getting involved in these fights is just letting them drag on.

Letting this fight drag on IS the current US policy.  We give Ukraine just enough to hold back Russian advances, but never enough to defend cities from missile attacks or penetrate Russian defense lines.

[sneakypete]

Letting this fight drag on IS the current US policy.  We give Ukraine just enough to hold back Russian advances, but never enough to defend cities from missile attacks or penetrate Russian defense lines.

@Hoodat

That's how the politicians make their under the table money. If the war were to end tomorrow,they would have to go back to only getting kickbacks from manufacturers and other pols.

They get paid by both sides as long as the war keeps going. They pass bills to send equipment and money,and the equipment and money always seems to get held up until,for some "magic reason" it is set free to fly away. A major problem with that is a lot of it is "flying away" to offshore bank accounts owned by close family relatives of the politicians voting to spend the money.

[bilo]

Letting this fight drag on IS the current US policy.  We give Ukraine just enough to hold back Russian advances, but never enough to defend cities from missile attacks or penetrate Russian defense lines.

Exactly!

A policy I totally disagree with.

[Elderberry]

Russian military death toll in past week at nearly 6,500

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3669076-russian-military-death-toll-in-past-week-at-nearly-6500.html

According to Pavliuk, the Russians also suffered major losses in terms of weaponry and military equipment. In particular, 60 tanks were destroyed, as well as 83 armored combat vehicles, 61 artillery systems, five MLR systems, seven air defense systems, 57 tricks, and 12 specialized vehicles.

In addition, Ukrainian defenders shot down two warplanes, two helicopters, 61 cruise missiles, as well as 49 UAVs.

As reported by Ukrinform, the Armed Forces of Ukraine eliminated 137,780 Russian soldiers from February 24, 2022, to February 12, 2023, including 900 in the past day alone.

[Timber Rattler]

‘Just to survive’: Wagner fighters recount the horrors of battle in eastern Ukraine

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/12/europe/wagner-convicts-eastern-ukraine-pleitgen-intl/index.html

Two former fighters of the Russian private military company Wagner have told CNN of their horrific experiences on the battlefield in eastern Ukraine, and how anyone who faltered was immediately shot by their own commanders.

(snip)

The two fighters told of hideous losses in “first wave” assaults reminiscent of World War I charges.

“There were 90 of us. Sixty died in that first assault, killed by mortar fire. A handful remained wounded,” said one, recalling his first assault near the village of Bilohorivka. “If one group is unsuccessful, another is sent right away. If the second one is unsuccessful, they send another group.”

(snip)

There was no evacuation of the wounded, he added. “If you’re wounded, you roll away on your own at first, any way you can, somewhere neutral where there’s no fire, and if there’s no one around, you administer first aid to yourself,” he said.

Casualties piled up by the dozen, the men said. “When the casualties arrive, you get orders to load them, and you don’t really think who’s dead and who’s wounded,” one of the fighters said.

(snip)

“We couldn’t retreat without orders because if we don’t comply with the order, we will be killed,” said one of the prisoners.

“One man stayed at a position, he was really scared, it was his first assault. We received an order to run forward. But the man hid under a tree and refused. This was reported to the command and that was it. He was taken 50 meters away from the base. He was digging his own grave and then was shot.”

The other fighter reported a similar situation: “Our commander was told that if anyone gets cold feet, he would have to be eliminated. And if we failed to eliminate him, we would be eliminated for failing to eliminate him.”

(snip)

“We thought we’d be fighting Poles and various mercenaries. Germans. We didn’t think anyone was left in the Ukrainian army there. We thought they’d left the country,” said one.

“So it became clear they were just spinning lies to get us to enter into battle with the Ukrainians. No one really thought that the AFU [Armed Forces of Ukraine] would actually fight for their own country, for their loved ones. We only learned this after going in there.”

EXCERPT.

Confirms Ukrainian accounts of fighting hordes of Russian "zombies."

[Elderberry]

Hilltop Coal-Mining Town a Tactical Prize in Ukraine War

https://www.voanews.com/a/hilltop-coal-mining-town-a-tactical-prize-in-ukraine-war-/6959267.html

In a small coal-mining town on Ukraine's eastern front line, a fight for strategic superiority is being waged in a battlefield steeped with symbolism as the one-year anniversary of Russia's invasion nears.

The town of Vuhledar, meaning "gift of coal," has emerged as a critical hot spot in the fight for the Donetsk province that would give both sides — the Ukrainian forces who hold the urban center, and the Russians positioned in the suburbs — a tactical upper hand in the greater battle for the Donbas region.

Located on an elevated plane that is one of the few high-terrain spots in the area, its capture would be an important step in Russia’s plans to disrupt Ukrainian supply lines. Securing Vuhledar would give Ukraine a potential launching pad for future counter-offensives south.

Then there is the symbolic weight: Vuhledar is close to the administrative border of the Donetsk province, and winning it would play into Russia's greater aim of controlling the region as a whole.

"The center of gravity of the Russian military effort is in Donetsk, and Vuhledar is basically the southern flank of that," said Gustav Gressel, a senior policy fellow with the European Council on Foreign Relation's Berlin office.

Population drops from 14,000 to about 300

The grinding fight to win the area has cost Russia manpower and weapons, as Ukrainians continue to hold up defensive lines. Russia sends battalion-sized scout groups to probe Ukrainian lines and shoot artillery toward their positions with an eye to pushing north toward the critical N15 highway, a key supply route.

In remarks this week, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said Russian troops were advancing "with success" in Vuhledar. Meanwhile, a British defense intelligence briefing said Russia's aim was to capture unoccupied areas of Ukrainian-held Donetsk, but it was unlikely to build up the forces required to change the outcome of the war.

[Elderberry]

Russian soldier death rate highest since first week of war - Ukraine

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64616099

Russian soldiers are dying in greater numbers in Ukraine this month than at any time since the first week of the invasion, according to Ukrainian data.

The Ukrainian data shows 824 Russian soldiers dying per day in February.

The figures were highlighted by the UK's Ministry of Defence. The figures cannot be verified - but the UK says the trends are "likely accurate".

The increase comes amid talk of a spring offensive by Russian forces in the east of the country.

Last week, Ukraine's outgoing defence minister, Oleksiy Reznikov, said they were anticipating a new Russian offensive around 24 February - the anniversary of the full-scale invasion.

But some local politicians, including the governors of Luhansk and Donetsk, claimed the offensive had already begun.

Some of the fiercest fighting has been around Bakhmut in the east of the country.

[Hoodat]

Hilltop Coal-Mining Town a Tactical Prize in Ukraine War

https://www.voanews.com/a/hilltop-coal-mining-town-a-tactical-prize-in-ukraine-war-/6959267.html

In a small coal-mining town on Ukraine's eastern front line, a fight for strategic superiority is being waged in a battlefield steeped with symbolism as the one-year anniversary of Russia's invasion nears.  .  .  .

The Russian Army is losing several hundred troops every day in Vulhedar.

Total Russian losses yesterday:

1,140 troops
9 main battle tanks
3 APVs
19 artillery pieces
27 drones
1 AA missile system

[Maj. Bill Martin]

He won't get support for that, but he will move the demands from Congress more to his position demanding better oversight.

If our goal in supporting Ukraine is to help them push the invaders out why haven't we given them the missiles that can take out the bridge and train line that connects Crimea to Russia? Increasingly it looks like we give them just enough to keep fighting, but not enough to win. If that's the case a negotiated settlement, no matter how distasteful, seems the better way to go.

I think the answer to that is that we are reluctant to give them weapons that have the potential to strike deep into Russia itself.  Concern about expanding the war, although I think that's overblown.  And I don't buy the argument that our goal is to have the war last as long as possible.  I think the preferred goal is a rapid Ukrainian victory with minimal risk of escalation, but that is likely viewed as a very difficult combination of events to pull off.  I do think that the mindset is changing a bit, and there is a now a greater recognition that defeating the invasion requires giving Ukraine more offensive capability.  Especially tanks.

[bilo]

I think the answer to that is that we are reluctant to give them weapons that have the potential to strike deep into Russia itself.  Concern about expanding the war, although I think that's overblown.  And I don't buy the argument that our goal is to have the war last as long as possible.  I think the preferred goal is a rapid Ukrainian victory with minimal risk of escalation, but that is likely viewed as a very difficult combination of events to pull off.  I do think that the mindset is changing a bit, and there is a now a greater recognition that defeating the invasion requires giving Ukraine more offensive capability.  Especially tanks.

As you allude to in your second sentence the excuse is a canard. We can give them the weaponry they need with the condition that if it is used to strike deep into Russia all aid will stop. Yet we don't do that. The military industrial complex is making a fortune off of new orders for weapons. It is very similar to how the drug companies made a fortune off of mandating people take experimental vaccines. I think the lobbyists have a much greater say in policy than we like to admit.

I'm tired of being played for the fool. It's why I won't vote for anyone who is not a well established America First politician, not a convert.

[Smokin Joe]

I think the answer to that is that we are reluctant to give them weapons that have the potential to strike deep into Russia itself.  Concern about expanding the war, although I think that's overblown.  And I don't buy the argument that our goal is to have the war last as long as possible.  I think the preferred goal is a rapid Ukrainian victory with minimal risk of escalation, but that is likely viewed as a very difficult combination of events to pull off.  I do think that the mindset is changing a bit, and there is a now a greater recognition that defeating the invasion requires giving Ukraine more offensive capability.  Especially tanks.

I think you may be right, but at the same time, that puts the same sort of constraints on the Ukrainians that our government imposed on our troops during Vietnam. The entire logistics and forward bases of the enemy were just established out of bounds, just as the Russians will keep sufficient distance to stay out of range. If the Russians start marshalling troop strength and stockpiling materiel just out of range from Ukraine, it's for the big putsch, not for of any benevolent or even benign purpose.

[Hoodat]

Targeting the Kerch bridge is not 'striking deep into Russia itself'.  Ukraine should be given the ability to make this happen.  It would spell the end of Russian occupation of the Ukrainian Oblast of Crimea.

[sneakypete]

I think you may be right, but at the same time, that puts the same sort of constraints on the Ukrainians that our government imposed on our troops during Vietnam. The entire logistics and forward bases of the enemy were just established out of bounds, just as the Russians will keep sufficient distance to stay out of range. If the Russians start marshalling troop strength and stockpiling materiel just out of range from Ukraine, it's for the big putsch, not for of any benevolent or even benign purpose.

@Smokin Joe

I know that has been sold as the popular conception,but it just isn't true.

Look up MACV-SOG and you will gain a new understanding. Basically,while the Communists were claiming they had no troops or supply lines in Cambodia or Laos,MACV-SOG Recon Teams and "Hatchet Force Platoons" were raiding NVA supply depots in Laos and Cambodia to plant booby traps to explode and kill any NVA that went into them to draw supplies,thus killing the NVA troops AND exploding all the ordinance in that depot.

We were also doing other little tricks I will NOT speak about to cause injury,death,and loss of morale to the NVA troops moving south to join the fight in VN.

You would be surprised how much chaos a 6 man Recon Team can inflict on a company of NVA in a well-planned and executed ambush.

This was all top secret until a few years ago,but now it is public information,so I am free to expose a little of what we were doing,which included doing things like going in on a mission wearing NVA uniforms and carrying AK's and RPD's to make the rookie soldiers entering the battle in SVN wonder if their own people were trying to kill them.

Even when we wore US uniforms,there was no insignia on them,and we didn't carry dog tags or US ID of any type. If captured,we could legally be shot as criminals.

This is all I ever intend to say about any of this. If you want more information,now that it is no longer classifed as Top Secret,there are plenty of books for sale at places like Amazon selling books written by SOG vets.

One that I can recommend is titled "Reflections of a Warrior" by a good friend of mine named Franklin D..Miller. He spent around 6 years running recon missions in VN,Cambodia,and Laos,and was awarded a Medal of Honor. He is dead now. Finally killed by a blood infection received on his last combat mission when he was shot all to hell.

His children will receive any royalties from the book sales,though.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Targeting the Kerch bridge is not 'striking deep into Russia itself'.  Ukraine should be given the ability to make this happen.  It would spell the end of Russian occupation of the Ukrainian Oblast of Crimea.

I agree, but weapons that could reach the Kerch bridge could also reach deep into Russia.