GOP dilemma — how to keep Trumpers yet regain anti-Trumpers

[Right_in_Virginia]

The consolidation and implementation of the Christian Right into the Conservative Coalition.

So, are you saying this    is the Reagan Administration's conservative accomplishment?

If so, we may need to revisit the whole icon thing.

[Bigun]

The GOP should start by making this column required reading!

Democracy and Tyranny

During President Donald J. Trump’s impeachment trial, we’ll hear a lot of talk about our rules for governing. One frequent claim is that our nation is a democracy. If we’ve become a democracy, it would represent a deep betrayal of our founders, who saw democracy as another form of tyranny. In fact, the word democracy appears nowhere in our nation’s two most fundamental documents, the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. The founders laid the ground rules for a republic as written in the Constitution’s Article IV, Section 4, which guarantees “to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government.”

John Adams captured the essence of the difference between a democracy and republic when he said, “You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.” Contrast the framers’ vision of a republic with that of a democracy. In a democracy, the majority rules either directly or through its elected representatives. As in a monarchy, the law is whatever the government determines it to be. Laws do not represent reason. They represent power. The restraint is upon the individual instead of the government. Unlike that envisioned under a republican form of government, rights are seen as privileges and permissions that are granted by government and can be rescinded by government.

Here are a few quotations that demonstrate the contempt that our founders held for a democracy. James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10, wrote that in a pure democracy, “there is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual.”

At the 1787 Constitutional Convention, Edmund Randolph said that “in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulence and follies of democracy.” Alexander Hamilton agreed, saying: “We are now forming a republican government. (Liberty) is found not in “the extremes of democracy but in moderate governments. … If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy.”

John Adams reminded us: “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

John Marshall, the highly respected fourth chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court observed, “Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos.”

Thomas Paine said, “A Democracy is the vilest form of Government there is.”

The framers gave us a Constitution replete with undemocratic mechanisms. One constitutional provision that has come in for recent criticism is the Electoral College. In their wisdom, the framers gave us the Electoral College as a means of deciding presidential elections. That means heavily populated states can’t run roughshod over small, less-populated states.

Were we to choose the president and vice president under a popular vote, the outcome of presidential races would always be decided by a few highly populated states, namely California, Texas, Florida, New York, Illinois and Pennsylvania, which contain 134.3 million people, or 41% of our population. Presidential candidates could safely ignore the interests of the citizens of Wyoming, Alaska, Vermont, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana and Delaware. Why? They have only 5.58 million Americans, or 1.7% of the U.S. population. We would no longer be a government “of the people.” Instead, our government would be put in power by and accountable to the leaders and citizens of a few highly populated states. It would be the kind of tyranny the framers feared.

It’s Congress that poses the greatest threat to our liberties. The framers’ distrust is seen in the negative language of our Bill of Rights such as: Congress “shall not abridge, infringe, deny, disparage, and shall not be violated, nor be denied.” When we die and if at our next destination we see anything like a Bill of Rights, we know that we’re in hell because a Bill of Rights in heaven would suggest that God couldn’t be trusted.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Bigun:  This is the "Tyranny of the Majority."

[Bigun]

@Bigun:  This is the "Tyranny of the Majority."

Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner!

[Smokin Joe]

@Bigun:  This is the "Tyranny of the Majority."

And here it is: U.S. Cities are Home to 62.7 Percent of the U.S. Population, but Comprise Just 3.5 Percent of Land Area

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2015/cb15-33.html

Urban residents have no clue what it is to have to be up at 3 AM pulling calves, keeping predators from the herd (although they have their version, just no clear field of fire), nor being snowed in. Rain is an inconvenience, not the bringer of life to a new crop, or the doom to a harvest. Effectively, that 3.5% of the land area is a different world, a construct, made by and run by alleged humans, while the things they consume are ultimately the product of somewhere else in a world as alien to them as the moon.  For that reason, those in cities should never be allowed to run the lives of those in more rural areas: they have no concept. For that matter, the converse is true as well. Admittedly, I have little clue as to how anything is accomplished (lawfully) in urban areas where apparently the most important lubrication is grease on the right palms, not bearings, nor do I understand the need for all the permits, etc, to do things which really should require little or no supervision. It's unnatural, at its core, just not exempt from the laws of physics and nature, which seem so much simpler without the anthropogenic overlay.

[Bigun]

Jean-Jacques Rousseau wet dream!

[christian]

sneakypete:
Mankind was ruled more by superstition and fear back then than reason,but the Founding Fathers were courageous enough to insist on the Separation of Church and State on the Federal Level. Eventually,things like Witch Burnings were even made crimes,which I have no doubt some of you deeply regret.

christian:
Odd how Separation of Church and State is applied to government and Christianity, but Islam is exempt and ushered into government with respect.  How is it only Christianity is a religion that applies to Separation of Church and State, and Islam gets not just a pass but privileged.......No criticism? 
---
Article 3 Of the Northwest Treaty that our government made with indian tribes.

And whereas, The greater part of the said tribe have been baptised and received into the Catholic church to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature.
---
Yeah, the American government has engaged in advancing Christianity and paid for it.  Public education has stained many young brains, brainwashed liberally.

[roamer_1]

So, are you saying this    is the Reagan Administration's conservative accomplishment?

If so, we may need to revisit the whole icon thing.

You would have to visit it first in order to revisit it. You have knocked principled conservatism since I've met you, And have had little understanding all the way along.

The difference between Reagan and Tumpy (and your movement with him) is that Reagan preserved and added to Conservatism. All y'all just mean to take away from it. No different than any other hyphenated 'conservatism'

And careful in your ridicule. Were it not for the Christian Right, the Republicans would not have won an election one.

[sneakypete]

sneakypete:
Mankind was ruled more by superstition and fear back then than reason,but the Founding Fathers were courageous enough to insist on the Separation of Church and State on the Federal Level. Eventually,things like Witch Burnings were even made crimes,which I have no doubt some of you deeply regret.

christian:
Odd how Separation of Church and State is applied to government and Christianity, but Islam is exempt and ushered into government with respect.  How is it only Christianity is a religion that applies to Separation of Church and State, and Islam gets not just a pass but privileged.......No criticism? 
---

@christian

I have wondered about that myself.


Article 3 Of the Northwest Treaty that our government made with indian tribes.

And whereas, The greater part of the said tribe have been baptised and received into the Catholic church to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature.
---
Yeah, the American government has engaged in advancing Christianity and paid for it.  Public education has stained many young brains, brainwashed liberally.

I guess it wasn't enough to take their lands and put them on reservations,they had to inflict Catholicism on them also?

BTW,this is the very first time I heard about this.

[Smokin Joe]

I guess it wasn't enough to take their lands and put them on reservations,they had to inflict Catholicism on them also?

BTW,this is the very first time I heard about this.

I'm surprised, really. They even made a movie about it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101465/

[christian]

The library of Congress used to have extensive records of the Christian foundations of America.  Much of the records now purged or adulterated.  Political correctness has destroyed a great deal of America's records of who we are and were.  That's how extreme the liberals are.  When communist take over, like muslims, they destroy the facts of history, they only allow and accept the perverse lies they adore and love to live.  As in the ancient days, humanity suffers greatly under such.

[Right_in_Virginia]

You would have to visit it first in order to revisit it. You have knocked principled conservatism since I've met you,

Let the record show:  I have knocked *you*.

[Right_in_Virginia]

You would have to visit it first in order to revisit it. You have knocked principled conservatism since I've met you, And have had little understanding all the way along.

The difference between Reagan and Tumpy (and your movement with him) is that Reagan preserved and added to Conservatism. All y'all just mean to take away from it. No different than any other hyphenated 'conservatism'  And careful in your ridicule. Were it not for the Christian Right, the Republicans would not have won an election one.

@roamer_1  According to you, his primary defense lawyer, Reagan's most conservative accomplishment in 8 years at the helm is the political power he gave to the Christian right.  And, yes, Reagan was also affable and graceful.

Big effing whoop!  This is the man you keep on a pedestal and guard with a constant barrage of circular fire???    This is the man still being used as a wedge issue by conservatives??    Stupid,  This. Is. Stupid.

Reagan was a fine, populist president.  30 years later Donald Trump would take the Reagan presidency and raise it to the higher conservative power.  We should all be pleased; really pleased.

When comparing Reagan with Trump, stop confusing style with substance --- for both men.

[roamer_1]

Let the record show:  I have knocked *you*.

No, you have knocked Conservatism, all the way along.

[Right_in_Virginia]

No, you have knocked Conservatism, all the way along.

No, I have not.  Conservative principles are fine, I have zero problem with them.  In fact, I see and acknowledge their value.

Sanctimonious blowhards wrapping themselves in conservative principles like a bubble boy get on my nerves. No fault of theirs,  I just don't like sanctimonious bubble boys.   

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1  According to you, his primary defense lawyer, Reagan's most conservative accomplishment in 8 years at the helm is the political power he gave to the Christian right.  And, yes, Reagan was also affable and graceful.

Big effing whoop!  This is the man you keep on a pedestal and guard with a constant barrage of circular fire???    This is the man still being used as a wedge issue by conservatives??    Stupid,  This. Is. Stupid.

LOL! Without the Christian Right, there is nothing. They ALONE are capable of 60m votes or more - Who really knows, as no one has got them to come out in unison for years.

So YEAH, in the political realm, rolling the Christians over to the Republicans is what made the Southern Stratedgy POSSIBLE. So his biggest accomplishment, by far. Seconded only by his joining of the Conservative Coalition together with purpose. After that, tearing down that wall, Restoring the American spirit, restoring our military prowess, and all the rest - What he did politically eclipses it all... Because without it, the Democrats would have continued to win elections and the Republicans would not have lasted into the 90s.

Reagan was a fine, populist president.  30 years later Donald Trump with take the Reagan presidency and raise it to the higher conservative power.  We should all be pleased; really pleased.

Reagan Was a Conservative FIRST, straight outta the Goldwater wing. Tumpy is a Northeast Democrat.

And he did NOTHING for Conservatism. It's all gone. Like every populist, he threw candy from the front of the parade. 'Higher conservative power' my ass.

When comparing Reagan with Trump, stop confusing style with substance --- for both men.

Oh believe me, I'm not. One had style and substance - the other, not so much.

[roamer_1]

No, I have not.  Conservative principles are fine, I have zero problem with them.  In fact, I see and acknowledge their value.

In fact, you have not. Just up thread, you didn't even know what they are.

Sanctimonious blowhards wrapping themselves in conservative principles like a bubble boy get on my nerves. No fault of theirs,  I just don't like sanctimonious bubble boys.   

Not sanctimonious at all. Just playing it right by the numbers. What makes you upset is that I will not move. I will not cede Conservative ground, and I will not throw Conservative brethren under the bus for your fetid movement.

[Right_in_Virginia]

LOL! Without the Christian Right, there is nothing. They ALONE are capable of 60m votes or more - Who really knows, as no one has got them to come out in unison for years.

If Christians don't want to vote MAGA, good for them.  I suspect we won't lose all.   But time is too short to argue with the weak-minded.  It's time to shake the dust off our feet and move on. 

Reagan Was a Conservative FIRST, straight outta the Goldwater wing.

Goldwater didn't have any conservative accomplishments, either?  Damn, just damn.  You're clearing off lots of pedestals today.

And he did NOTHING for Conservatism. It's all gone. Like every populist, he threw candy from the front of the parade. 'Higher conservative power' my ass.

Actually, I think your ass is a lower conservative power.  But, judging by your rising fury, you're finally understanding Donald Trump was our most conservative president in 35 years.

Welcome aboard!

Oh believe me, I'm not. One had style and substance - the other, not so much.

I agree.  Donald Trump has a litany of conservative accomplishments in just four years.  Ronald Reagan remains forever the most affable and graceful President of the United States. 

Even Ronnie's political enemies liked him.   

[roamer_1]

If Christians don't want to vote MAGA, good for them.  I suspect we won't lose all.   But time is too short to argue with the weak-minded.  It's time to shake the dust off our feet and move on. 

Right. Because what they stand upon does not matter, right? All that matters is your dumbass bumper-sticker campaign.

Goldwater didn't have any conservative accomplishments, either?  Damn, just damn.  You're clearing off lots of pedestals today.

You should read Goldwater sometime and maybe you'd know how hilarious that statement is.

Actually, I think your ass is a lower conservative power.  But, judging by your rising fury, you're finally understanding Donald Trump was our most conservative president in 35 years.

You are free to form your own opinions. And I have no fury. Y'all ain't worth the time for fury. I'll just walk off.
Because what I stand upon, and what you seek to remove, is truth. Timeless, tried and true.

And I know the absurdity of unity for unity's sake, and the falsity of being unified in untruth. You go ahead and take that path. I can't stop you. But remember, I told you where you were going.

Welcome aboard!

Never.ever.will.happen.

I agree.  Donald Trump has a litany of conservative accomplishments in just four years. 

Where? They're all gone. Like a fart in a hurricane. What Reagan built s what you are trying to tear down and replace - yet here it is, all these many years later. That is called a legacy.

[Smokin Joe]

Being the "most conservative POTUS in 35 years" is a pretty sad statement for America. Unfortunately, the real sea anchor behind his rowboat was the GOP who failed miserably in backing the POTUS when it could have done wonders for this country and Americans, and could have shown the benefits of Conservative policies all around.

Instead, the perfidy of the GOP caused the policies to be of the (predicted) temporary nature as Biden's pen and EO pile have shown. So let's get down to brass tacks, all of us.

The problem wasn't who we had in the White House, it's who we have in the Congress.


Don't blame RINOs, those aren't RINOs, they're the GOP front line, their stock in trade.

It's the Conservatives on Capitol Hill who are Republican in name only.

The abject failure of that lot of our EMPLOYEES to pass Conservative measures, statutes with lasting effect, is appalling. The GOP had what the Communists have now, the trifecta of power in these United States, and they didn't do jack sh*t with it but wait for the Democrats to regain power, which theDemocrats are using mercilessly to assault even the most basic liberties, including who you sell your stuff to and how you do it (HR 8), with "defectors" (defectives) voting with the Democrats.

Either the GOP gets its fundamental feces together and puts up some resistance, or this Republic is done.

[Cyber Liberty]

Don't blame RINOs, those aren't RINOs, they're the GOP front line, their stock in trade.

It's the Conservatives on Capitol Hill who are Republican in name only.

And that's what I think the RINO in @DefiantMassRINO really means!

[Right_in_Virginia]

Don't blame RINOs, those aren't RINOs, they're the GOP front line, their stock in trade.

It's the Conservatives on Capitol Hill who are Republican in name only.

Exactly right @Smokin Joe   Well said!

[roamer_1]

The problem wasn't who we had in the White House, it's who we have in the Congress.

I would say the problem is BOTH. ALL of it.

None of it defends truth or liberty.

The current Republican party, to include Tumpy and his minions, is to Conservatism, as this song is to Country Music:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9ZbuIRPwFg

[roamer_1]

That sure as hell ain't George Strait, if you know what I mean.

[dfwgator]

.

Where? They're all gone. Like a fart in a hurricane. What Reagan built s what you are trying to tear down and replace - yet here it is, all these many years later. That is called a legacy.

What did Reagan build? The biggest deficits we'd ever seen up to that point.