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rangerrebew

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Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« on: August 14, 2020, 02:38:45 pm »
Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
John C. Eastman , Professor of law, Chapman University and senior fellow, Claremont Institute
On 8/12/20 at 8:30 AM EDT
 

Editor's note: Some readers reacted strongly to this essay, seeing it as an attempt to ignite a racist conspiracy theory. That is entirely inaccurate, as this Note explains.

Eugene Volokh offers the opposing argument here.

The fact that Senator Kamala Harris has just been named the vice presidential running mate for presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden has some questioning her eligibility for the position. The 12th Amendment provides that "no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." And Article II of the Constitution specifies that "[n]o person except a natural born citizen...shall be eligible to the office of President." Her father was (and is) a Jamaican national, her mother was from India, and neither was a naturalized U.S. citizen at the time of Harris' birth in 1964. That, according to these commentators, makes her not a "natural born citizen"—and therefore ineligible for the office of the president and, hence, ineligible for the office of the vice president.

https://www.newsweek.com/some-questions-kamala-harris-about-eligibility-opinion-1524483

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2020, 02:40:47 pm »
 :yowsa: pointing-up
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2020, 03:42:24 pm »
He has been getting a lot of flack for this.
Trump, too, as he brought up the article.
They are accusing him of "birtherism" now.
Unfairly, as he pointed out that there is this article by Newsweek.
When asked if Harris was eligible, President Trump said, "I don't know".
That part is conveniently left off of the left-wing media's reporting of it.

John C. Eastman is an esteemed law professor.
He makes valid points, but as in other similar cases (McCain, Obama, Cruz), I do not expect the court to rule on it.
On the 3 mention above, the case has been made that at least one of the parents was a US citizen, and had not renounced said citizenship, meaning, they could have been born anywhere on the planet, and still meet the eligibility requirement.
The court would probably side with the ruling in the 1898 case of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, or at least use that is the reasoning.

Of course, now John C. Eastman will probably be deemed a racist and a sexist.


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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2020, 03:52:10 pm »
He has been getting a lot of flack for this.
Trump, too, as he brought up the article.
They are accusing him of "birtherism" now.
Unfairly, as he pointed out that there is this article by Newsweek.
When asked if Harris was eligible, President Trump said, "I don't know".
That part is conveniently left off of the left-wing media's reporting of it.

John C. Eastman is an esteemed law professor.
He makes valid points, but as in other similar cases (McCain, Obama, Cruz), I do not expect the court to rule on it.
On the 3 mention above, the case has been made that at least one of the parents was a US citizen, and had not renounced said citizenship, meaning, they could have been born anywhere on the planet, and still meet the eligibility requirement.
The court would probably side with the ruling in the 1898 case of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, or at least use that is the reasoning.

Of course, now John C. Eastman will probably be deemed a racist and a sexist.

Wong Kim Ark never mentions the term Natural Born Citizen.  It merely says citizen at birth.

And further, SCOTUS has never applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”

The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)

"The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Minor v. Happersett , 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

"At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens,"

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

"(A)ll children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2020, 04:06:24 pm »
Wong Kim Ark never mentions the term Natural Born Citizen.  It merely says citizen at birth.

And further, SCOTUS has never applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”

The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)

"The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Minor v. Happersett , 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

"At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens,"

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

"(A)ll children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."

Because Wong was born in the United States and his parents were not “employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China,” the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment automatically makes him a U.S. citizen. Justice Horace Gray authored the opinion on behalf of a 6-2 majority, in which the Court established the parameters of the concept known as jus soli—the citizenship of children born in the United States to non-citizens.

Not saying I agree, but there is precedent here.

You would have to prove that the parents of Kamala Harris were not legal residents.
This could be difficult.
Even then, I believe (whether or not it is right or wrong), the court would use the "jus soli" arguement.

I don't believe it would get overturned.

As Eastman states in the article:

"The Supreme Court's subsequent decision in Wong Kim Ark is not to the contrary. At issue there was a child born to Chinese immigrants who had become lawful, permanent residents in the United States—"domiciled" was the legally significant word used by the Court. But that was the extent of the Court's holding (as opposed to broader language that was dicta, and therefore not binding). Indeed, the Supreme Court has never held that anyone born on U.S. soil, no matter the circumstances of the parents, is automatically a U.S. citizen."

Yet, then says:

"Were Harris' parents lawful permanent residents at the time of her birth? If so, then under the actual holding of Wong Kim Ark, she should be deemed a citizen at birth—that is, a natural-born citizen—and hence eligible."

And a caveat:

"Or were they instead, as seems to be the case, merely temporary visitors, perhaps on student visas issued pursuant to Section 101(15)(F) of Title I of the 1952 Immigration Act?"

Admits:

"I have no doubt that this significant challenge to Harris' constitutional eligibility to the second-highest office in the land will be dismissed out of hand as so much antiquated constitutional tripe."

He is right to ask and bring it up, I agree.

I just do not believe the courts will touch it, and if they do, they will claim "jus soli".




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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2020, 04:18:59 pm »


I just do not believe the courts will touch it, and if they do, they will claim "jus soli".

And all the evidence to the contrary, including the congressional record of the debates on the 14th, be damned!

I do not disagree with you @GrouchoTex
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2020, 05:09:11 pm »
And all the evidence to the contrary, including the congressional record of the debates on the 14th, be damned!

I do not disagree with you @GrouchoTex

Sad, but true.

I would love to be wrong, and have this 14th amendment revisited from time to time.
I just don't expect it to be.

One thing bothers me about this, is that the author and Trump are getting a hard time for this.
It is a fair question to ask, and right to do so.
We need to be on guard against enemy interlopers trying to get around this in the future, say from Russia or China.
What good is it to have legal scholars if they won't bother to look at things like this?
Trump or Eastman should never make any apologies for this!

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2020, 05:12:46 pm »
Sad, but true.

I would love to be wrong, and have this 14th amendment revisited from time to time.
I just don't expect it to be.

One thing bothers me about this, is that the author and Trump are getting a hard time for this.
It is a fair question to ask, and right to do so.
We need to be on guard against enemy interlopers trying to get around this in the future, say from Russia or China.
What good is it to have legal scholars if they won't bother to look at things like this?
Trump or Eastman should never make any apologies for this!

Or Iran!  Oh! Wait!  Never mind!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2020, 05:14:29 pm »
Or Iran!  Oh! Wait!  Never mind!

Jarret?
Yes.
Somalia as well.....

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2020, 05:16:33 pm »
Jarret?
Yes.
Somalia as well.....

Yep! What the hell do we need with the Constitution anyway?  /s
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 05:26:40 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline HuskyPatriot

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2020, 06:45:58 pm »
"A natural-born citizen refers to someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth, and did not need to go through a naturalization proceeding later in life."  https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/natural_born_citizen


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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2020, 06:49:20 pm »
"A natural-born citizen refers to someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth, and did not need to go through a naturalization proceeding later in life."  https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/natural_born_citizen

A "Natural Born Citizen" is one who is a citizen without the aid of any legislation ever passed!  Jus Soli AND Jus Sanguinis
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2020, 07:00:33 pm »
Kammy was born in Oakland, California. California jokes and un-naturally born jokes aside, she's a natural-born citizen. There are a vast number of far more important issues with Kammy than this, and going Birther 2.0 would be playing into her and Biden's hand.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2020, 07:16:42 pm »
Kammy was born in Oakland, California. California jokes and un-naturally born jokes aside, she's a natural-born citizen. There are a vast number of far more important issues with Kammy than this, and going Birther 2.0 would be playing into her and Biden's hand.

Not going to happen anyway @PeteS in CA   Apparently there isn't one soul in our government today willing to stand up and fight for our Constitution! 

I hope you, and they,  are happy when one of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's daughters comes here, drops a kid, and has that kid run for President of the United States 35 years later.

And BTW: Despite what the liars at your School of Law taught you, SCOTUS has never applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”

The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 253 (1814)

"The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens."

Minor v. Happersett , 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

"At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens,"

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898)

"(A)ll children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."

« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 07:18:06 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2020, 11:00:51 pm »
I've said this before and I'll repeat:
Force the issue to the Supreme Court.
Make them decide, one way or the other.

Until then, this issue is NOT resolved!

Offline PeteS in CA

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2020, 11:43:26 pm »
...
I hope you, and they,  are happy when one of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's daughters comes here, drops a kid, and has that kid run for President of the United States 35 years later.

And BTW: Despite what the liars at your School of Law taught you, SCOTUS has never applied the term "natural born citizen" to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”
...

My, how antagonistic. Been quaffing Jolt Cola with espresso shot chasers? yogi555
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2020, 12:26:00 am »
My, how antagonistic. Been quaffing Jolt Cola with espresso shot chasers? yogi555

You can characterize it however you like and avoid the long term implications of your position if you like but it won't change the reality of what I said one iota.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2020, 12:48:26 am »
"A natural-born citizen refers to someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth, and did not need to go through a naturalization proceeding later in life."  https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/natural_born_citizen

BOTH of Harris' parents were NOT citizens -- therefore they were in this country ILLEGALLY when she was born!!

I'm sorry, but I have a problem with that.

Marco Rubio -- same thing  -- neither of his parents were U.S. citizens when he was born.

Lots of ILLEGALS enter this country, ILLEGALLY when they are about to give birth or reside in this country and give birth, and hence their child supposedly become a U.S. citizen. Sorry, I have a problem with that.
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2020, 12:56:00 am »
Not going to happen anyway @PeteS in CA   Apparently there isn't one soul in our government today willing to stand up and fight for our Constitution! 

I hope you, and they,  are happy when one of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's daughters comes here, drops a kid, and has that kid run for President of the United States 35 years later.


In addition to that problem we are now faced with those who are in this country and were granted asylum who have sought and succeeded in obtaining a seat in Congress!!! Ilhan Omar anyone??  NEITHER of her parents were citizens and she was NOT born in the U.S., but ALL granted asylum.  She is one of the most radical congressional women that we have seated in the halls of our Congress!!

Anyone who doesn't see a problem with what is going on here??
« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 12:59:32 am by libertybele »
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2020, 01:14:54 am »
Not all immigrants are "ILLEGALS"

https://www.oprahmag.com/entertainment/a33584703/kamala-harris-parents/

Quote
One important part of her backstory is her biracial African American and Indian-American identity she inherited from her parents, Shyamala Gopalan and Donald Harris, who both immigrated to the United States (from India and Jamaica, respectively) to pursue doctorate degrees at the University of California, Berkeley.

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2020, 01:16:47 am »
In addition to that problem we are now faced with those who are in this country and were granted asylum who have sought and succeeded in obtaining a seat in Congress!!! Ilhan Omar anyone??  NEITHER of her parents were citizens and she was NOT born in the U.S., but ALL granted asylum.  She is one of the most radical congressional women that we have seated in the halls of our Congress!!

Anyone who doesn't see a problem with what is going on here??

Everyone on this board sees the problem.

In a way it is a paradox. Don't bite the hand that feeds.

I'm not rich, monetarily. But, I insist on paying my way. It is what they take. Combine that with millions of other Americans doing the same and we feed the Fed. And the Fed feeds the resourceless.

The anarchists are biting the hand that feeds. The Feds are biting the hand that feeds. Me. All I have to do is stop feeding the Fed.

We can do it easily by what @Bigun suggests. Kill the IRS. Kill the Federal Reserve.

If that doesn't work. Kill them all.


She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2020, 01:19:42 am »
I was born and raised in this country by people who were born and raised in this country by people who were born and raised in this country and I AM AS ILLEGAL AS F*CK.

If you don't believe me...ask them...
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2020, 01:28:17 am »
Not all immigrants are "ILLEGALS"

https://www.oprahmag.com/entertainment/a33584703/kamala-harris-parents/

I saw that this was an Oprah piece and didn't bother.  I no longer have any use for her racist opinion.
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2020, 01:43:48 am »
I saw that this was an Oprah piece and didn't bother.  I no longer have any use for her racist opinion.

@libertybele

Back to your statement:
Quote
BOTH of Harris' parents were NOT citizens -- therefore they were in this country ILLEGALLY when she was born!!

My wife was NOT a citizen when all of my 3 children were born. Would you also claim my WIFE was in this country ILLEGALLY?????

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Re: Some Questions for Kamala Harris About Eligibility | Opinion
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2020, 01:48:30 am »
@libertybele

Back to your statement:
My wife was NOT a citizen when all of my 3 children were born. Would you also claim my WIFE was in this country ILLEGALLY?????

I wouldn't @Elderberry but it does not follow that your children born under those circumstances are eligible to run for president or vice president.  They are not.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien