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Offline EasyAce

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Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« on: November 23, 2019, 02:28:06 pm »
Derek Jeter, a HOF walk, is subject of a peculiar apparent BBWAA voting campaign.
By Yours Truly
https://throneberryfields.com/2019/11/23/one-vote-samba/


Derek Jeter performing The Flip. A
few Hall of Fame-voting writers seem
to have flipped, too.


There’s a rather troublesome trend brewing among Hall of Fame voters in the Baseball Writers Association of America. Since the group now allows public Hall vote disclosure, some early voters are disclosing, all right. They’re disclosing one-vote ballots and the votes are going to Derek Jeter.

Jeter’s Cooperstown enshrinement was a given from the moment he doffed his Yankee pinstripes for the last time. There’s a swelling sense that, as Newsday writer/voter Anthony Rieber puts it, Jeter “deserves to stand alone at the podium as the entire Hall of Fame Class of 2020 on July 26 in Cooperstown.”

And, a parallel sense

enunciated by another Newsday writer, Steve Marcus, that the Hall of Fame is getting a little too crowded, which he emphasises with his #keeptheHallsmall hashtag. Marcus also declared, a la the headline attached to a 2019 column in question, “Legends are my baseline for baseball Hall of Fame ballot.”

I’ll take the first argument first. It’s a relative to the old discredited argument that, if so-and-sos didn’t get elected on their first tries, then so-and-sos to come shouldn’t be elected first ballot, either.

Try this one on for size: How would you like someone arguing that if Ty Cobb, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Babe Ruth, and Cy Young Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Honus Wagner didn’t get to stand alone when inducted into Cooperstown, then nobody else should, either? Didn’t think so.

As it happens, only 22 players in the history of the Hall of Fame were the only ones to be elected by the BBWAA in the years they got the call. That’s less than ten percent of all major league players in the Hall, whether elected by the writers or the assorted Veterans Committees:

Rogers Hornsby (1942)
Charlie Gehringer (1949)
Luke Appling (1964)
Ted Williams (1966)
Red Ruffing (1967)
Joe Medwick (1968)
Lou Boudreau (1970)
Ralph Kiner (1975)
Ernie Banks (1977)
Eddie Mathews (1978)
Willie Mays (1979)
Bob Gibson (1981)
Willie McCovey (1986)
Willie Stargell (1988)
Reggie Jackson (1993)
Steve Carlton (1994)
Mike Schmidt (1995)
Phil Niekro (1997)
Ozzie Smith (2002)
Bruce Sutter (2006)
Goose Gossage (2008)
Barry Larkin (2012)

You might have thought a few of those men deserved to stand alone among BBWAA choices, of course. Who’d argue against Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt, and Ozzie Smith? Not I, said the fly. Maybe Reggie Jackson, too. The man was one of a kind, even if some of his critics might follow saying so with “Thank God!”

Now, would you like to know whom among those BBWAA winners really stood alone? As in, standing at the induction podium with nobody else—not a Veterans Committee selection, not an executive, not a pioneer, not a Negro Leagues inductee, nobody—on their big day? Four—Hornsby, Stargell, Jackson, and Smith.

Rieber and Marcus and probably a few more writers, not necessarily confined to the BBWAA’s New York contingent, think Jeter belongs to that set and maybe even subset. Set aside for the moment that he was actually an overrated shortstop, overall, and you can still find the plausible argument that Jeter wasn’t quite in league with such position players as Williams, Mays, Schmidt, and Smith.

Come to think of it, there’s a better case that Jeter’s longtime “Core Five” Yankee teammate, Mariano Rivera, deserved the stand-alone BBWAA vote more if the circumstances granted it. Rivera was the absolute best in the business at what he did. Jeter wasn’t, quite.

Don’t go there about the postseasons just yet. Yes, like The Mariano, Jeter and the postseason were a long, happy marriage. His postseason OPS is comparable to Hall of Famer Rickey Henderson’s lifetime OPS per 162 games. Think about that for a moment: Jeter as a number two hitter in the postseason was equal to a Hall of Fame leadoff hitter on the regular season, even if the Man of Steal could beat Captain Clutch in a footrace with one leg amputated.

The player who makes the absolute difference between his team getting to or missing the postseason is extremely rare. Jeter’s Yankees getting there in the first place, never mind winning five rings, were total team efforts. (Jeter did win one World Series MVP, in 2000.) Just as Williams’s Red Sox getting to only one World Series, Mays’s Giants getting to only three (winning one), Schmidt’s Phillies getting to only one (and winning), and Smith’s Cardinals getting to three (winning once) were total team shortfalls.

But Jeter did shine in the postseason. And made it look so simple a child of five could have done it. (Thanks, Groucho.) If you thought he was already built to act as though the New York heat met its match in his charisma and his ability to duck every controversy that swarmed his Yankees, come the postseason Jeter played as if the big moment was just another day on the job, just another chance to play the game he loved.

(Just for the record: Lifetime, Jeter’s best performance was in medium-leverage situations, with a .321/.380/.464 slash line. His high-leverage performance was almost even with it: .311/.391/.418. Medium-leverage OPS: .844; high-leverage OPS: .809. When the stakes were lowest, so was Jeter: .299/.371/.426, with a Boeing OPS: .797. It’s no crime that a man saves his best for when it matters just that much more toward winning.)

Reggie Jackson once talked about “the magnitude of being me,” and for all his once-outsized ego he didn’t necessarily mean it as self-congratulation. Jeter lived the magnitude of being him as though it was as natural as coffee at the breakfast table and worth just as much discussion—none.

Jeter’s Hall of Fame election would make him the tenth Hall of Fame shortstop of the post-World War II/post-integration/night baseball era. The longer I watched him, especially in all those postseasons, the more I now wanted to see how he stacks against the nine others according to my real batting average concept.

In traditional BA terms, the terms I prefer to call the hitting average, he’s a lifetime .310 hitter. And he does have those 3,465 career hits. But there’s a problem there: the hitting average is an incomplete picture of a man at the plate, and 3,000+ lifetime hits by themselves tell you nothing about what they were actually worth.

Stop snarling, grumpy old giddoff-mah-lawners. Ask yourself how proper it is to declare all hits are created equal and divide them purely by official at-bats. And ask yourself whether 3,465 career hits are really better than 3,184 hits. Yes, that’s a ringer. The 3,184 belong to Cal Ripken, Jr., whose lifetime hitting average (sorry, I’m sticking with the program again) was .276. And as I’m about to show you, Ripken was actually a better man at the plate than Jeter was, without once suggesting that it means Jeter doesn’t belong in Cooperstown.

We should ask why we don’t account for everything a man does at the plate. We should ask why we don’t add his total bases (which do treat all hits the way they should be treated: unequal, unless you really think a single’s equal to a double’s equal to a triple’s equal to a home run), his walks, his intentional walks (why aren’t we crediting a guy when the other team would rather he take his base than their pitchers’ heads off?), his sacrifices, and the times he got plunked? (They want to put you on the hard way, let it be on their heads.) And, we should ask why we don’t divide that total by his total plate appearances.

And then, we should do just that. TB + BB + IBB + SAC + HBP / PA. That’s your real batting average. And this is how Derek Jeter stacks up with the nine incumbent postwar/post-integration/night ball Hall of Fame shortstops:



Jeter’s .505 is the fourth best among the group. It’s nineteen points above the average for the Hall of Fame shortstops, and only Barry Larkin, Cal Ripken, and Ernie Banks are ahead of him. He’s third in walks behind Ripken and Reese; he’s second only to Ripken for total bases; he’s third to last (ahead of only Rizzuto and Aparicio) for intentional walks; he’s fourth to last in sacrifices (Larkin, Ripken, and Banks are behind him), but boy did he take more for the team getting plunked. (Nobody else among the shortstops has more than 70.)

In other words, Jeter’s a bona fide, above the average, Hall of Fame shortstop, and collecting more hits than any Hall of Fame infielder counts even if the total picture offensive picture lines him up fourth among postwar/post-integration/night-ball shortstops.

It’s his defense that leaves Jeter a little overrated. He was Ozzie Smith-acrobatic at his best. His gymnastics happened often enough, even if the Wizard of Oz makes The Captain resemble an aspirant. Maybe the signature defensive play of Jeter’s career, among several highlight-filmers, was that barehand grab of a throw home from right that missed two cutoff men, Jeter running down the infield from shortstop, hitting the middle of the first base line as he grabbed the ball, and the backward shovel pass home as he stepped into foul ground,
to nail Jeremy Giambi at the plate in the 2001 American League division series.

But Jeter did have more limited range at the position than you remember, and he wasn’t as good at saving runs as you expected him to be when you remembered all the dazzlers he performed, despite having a strong throwing arm and steady hands. Lifetime, Jeter at shortstop was 155 defensive runs saved below average, and he was 13 runs saved below average a year.

There’s the difference. Watching Jeter and Smith their entire careers was as entertaining as it got. They were both shortstop acrobats. But that’s where the comparison ends. The Wizard of Oz was a Flying Wallenda and the greatest defender at the position. Jeter’s no less a Hall of Famer because for all his own flying he wasn’t even close to Ozzie Smith-great at shortstop. Nobody else really was, either.

Which returns me to Steve Marcus and his legend measurement. Jeter is one of eighteen Hall of Fame ballot premieres, with fourteen more making return engagements. The ballot includes a few other legends: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Curt Schilling, and Sammy Sosa. Never mind the controversies attached to those players for now. Legends?

Yes, we know Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa have the “taint” of actual or alleged performance-enhancing substances, never mind that baseball—to its shame, perhaps—had no formal strictures applied to them while those men played the game. Now, marry that to the too often underappreciated point that nobody really knows for dead last certain what those substances, assuming those men dabbled, really did or didn’t do for them when it came to actually playing the game.

And, yes, we know Schilling has gotten into post-career trouble purely because of his big yap (though the bankruptcy of his video game company didn’t help, either), whatever you do or don’t think about what he says. (It’s hard to forget, too, that way before those, in the 1990s, Phillies general manager Ed Wade said of Schilling, his best pitcher, “Schilling is a horse every fifth day and a horse’s ass the other four.”)

But Bonds and Clemens made bona-fide Hall of Fame cases before they’re thought to have stepped into the actual/alleged PED pool. Sosa has a peak value Hall case. And just about every time those guys showed up was an event. (Codicil: I got to see Sosa live in a game at Dodger Stadium with my then-young son, and when Sosa hit two out against Kevin Brown the place went nuts-hunt-the-squirrels crazy.)

And Schilling? He wasn’t just among the all-timers when it came to preventing runs and dominating in the battle of balls and strikes (his is still the seventh-highest strikeout-to-walk ratio in major league history), as Jaffe observed—he was the very essence of a big-game pitcher. (Want to make someone have cows on the spot? Tell them Schilling was a better big-game pitcher than Jack Morris—which he was.)

Like Jeter at postseason shortstop and at the postseason plate, Schilling on the postseason mound pitched as though it had his name on it. (Both men were also deadly in the absolute highest heat of a pennant race.) His gutsy turns with experimental tendon-sheath securing in 2004 only slammed exclamation points on it.

Of course, not every legend is a Hall of Famer (hello, Roger Maris, for openers) and not every Hall of Famer is a legend, either. (Nice to meet you, Bobby Wallace.) If Marcus and others of his like think only bona fide legends belong in Cooperstown, then Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, and Sosa are as overqualified as Jeter. If they think those guys aren’t legends, they’ve been sleeping longer than Rip Van Winkle.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2019, 08:50:10 am »
Jeter was a great player, but there are at least 25 better than him in the Hall.   This sportswriters' vanity that he somehow deserves to enter the Hall alone,  at the direct expense of his contemporaries who only have a limited number of years on the ballot,  is disgraceful, IMO.   

My own criteria for Hall-worthiness places less weight on statistics and more on the less tangible quality of "fame" honored by the name of the institution.   I would favor great players who are indelibly associated with one team,  who became the face of successful franchises.   I like, for example, that Kirby Puckett is in the hall.   And when their time comes,  I think Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley deserve the call,  because they personified Phillies baseball during the most successful years the franchise ever had, years when they sold out the park for seasons on end.   I'd also give extra weight to a guy like Schilling, whose postseason success is the stuff folks in both Boston and Philly tell their grandkids.   
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2019, 09:11:47 am »
...and Schilling was an Astro as well for one year.

Jeter deserves to be in the hall, but he isn't the only one on the ballot who is deserving.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2019, 02:00:01 pm »
Jeter was a great player, but there are at least 25 better than him in the Hall.   This sportswriters' vanity that he somehow deserves to enter the Hall alone,  at the direct expense of his contemporaries who only have a limited number of years on the ballot,  is disgraceful, IMO.
@Jazzhead
It's as I argued in the essay---it's as stupid a vanity as was the argument that if so-and-so among the all-timers didn't get in on his first try (even Joe DiMaggio and Willie Mays, to name two), then so-and-so has no right to think about making it on his first try. It'd be no disgrace to Derek Jeter if he should have company at the Cooperstown podium next July, but if any Yankee Hall of Famer from his era should have stood alone it was probably Mariano Rivera---and he didn't, either.

On the other hand, in 1974 Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford stood unaccompanied otherwise among players inducted into the Hall of Fame. And that was probably as it should have been, considering the third co-franchise face of those 1950s Yankees, Yogi Berra, was inducted in 1972 . . . next to Sandy Koufax. And if anyone from his time and place deserved to stand alone among inducted players it was Koufax. (Yogi didn't make it on his first try, either, which was pretty stupid in itself.)

My own criteria for Hall-worthiness places less weight on statistics and more on the less tangible quality of "fame" honored by the name of the institution.
That's a fine point, but then you have to ponder that legitimate greatness doesn't always equal fame, and fame doesn't always equal greatness.

And the favour statistics do for us is to give us the complete picture of a player---even players we got to see play often enough, never mind players we didn't get to see. If only because it's the rare bird among us who'd get to see every last one of the 2,430 major league baseball games played in a 162-game season. And for players whose careers occurred before we were alive to see them, statistics and their various factor-adjustments are just about the only way we have now to see how they were above and beyond assorted writings from their times. (And not all those writings were entirely reliable, either.)

I would favor great players who are indelibly associated with one team,  who became the face of successful franchises.   I like, for example, that Kirby Puckett is in the hall.   And when their time comes,  I think Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley deserve the call,  because they personified Phillies baseball during the most successful years the franchise ever had, years when they sold out the park for seasons on end.
I enjoyed watching those Phillies myself, and Rollins and Utley were two big reasons why. But Rollins is a kind of textbook example of a franchise face who wasn't quite as great as he looked. Objectively, he's ranked number 32 among all-time great shortstops. (And he did win a Most Valuable Player award that probably should have gone to the Mets' David Wright that season; I'm guessing the MVP voters in 2007 looked at Rollins leading the league in runs scored but forgetting that scoring runs depends as much on the men in the lineup behind you as it does on what you're doing on the bases and, unfortunately, I've never heard of anyone stealing home 139 times in a career, never mind a season.)

Chase Utley was his co-franchise face but Utley has a far stronger Hall of Fame case: he's rated objectively as the number 11 second baseman of all time. Utley's Hall of Fame case lies more in his peak value than his career value, and he wouldn't be the first and won't be the last to get in (if he does get in; I don't see him as a first-try Hall of Famer depending on his company when he hits the ballot), but he's a bona-fide peak value Hall of Famer. And if you're looking at defense, which doesn't always show up in the ratings (if it did, Lou Gehrig wouldn't quite be the number one first baseman of all time according to the objective measurements), Chase Utley was a better defensive second baseman than Jimmy Rollins was a defensive shortstop. Utley was 133 runs saved above his league average lifetime; Rollins was 70. They were as silky smooth a double play combination as you ever wanted to see, but individually Chase Utley was several times the player Jimmy Rollins was.

As a matter of fact, you might look at their stolen base performances and think Rollins was better on the bases than Utley---but you'd actually be wrong. Rollins stole a lot more bases than Utley (470 to 154), but he has an 817 percent stolen base percentage and Utley has an .875 stolen base percentage. And Utley also has a 54 percent rate of taking extra bases on followup hits to Rollins's 47 percent. That tells me my eyes weren't lying whenever I saw them play in those years: the Phillies had a better chance to win with Chase Utley on the bases than they did with Jimmy Rollins on the bases.

One problem with single-team players is how rare they are and have actually always been. People don't stop to think about this, but if you were to run down the Hall of Famers from the first induction in 1936, you'd find almost exactly as many single-team players in the Hall whose careers were all or mostly in the old reserve era (they only began with Babe Ruth playing for three teams, though the third for Ruth involved as nebulous a deal as you'll find in the game's history) as you'll find among those whose careers were all or mostly in the free agency era. When the Messersmith ruling was handed down, the uproar over the end of "loyalty" blinded people to the fact that for all the teams who "stayed together" for such long terms, the reality was that you could only name a handful on average---five or six players at most, not all of whom were regulars in the starting lineups or pitching pictures---who didn't get dealt out of town for long periods of time, in a time when players had absolutely no say in where they might be employed.

And that reminds me, too, that the Hall of Fame is about greatness, not employment. Ernie Banks didn't become a Hall of Famer because he was Mr. Cub, he became a Hall of Famer because he was a bona-fide Hall of Fame-great player. Kirby Puckett didn't become a Hall of Famer because he was Mr. Twin (though his nickname was actually Puck), he became one because voters believed what was and what could have become if not for his forced retirement equaled a bona-fide Hall of Fame-great player. Derek Jeter isn't going into Cooperstown next July because he was the face of his Yankees, he's going in because he was Hall of Fame-great as a player even if he is an overrated shortstop. Mantle, Ford, and Berra didn't get into the Hall of Fame because they were three faces of their Yankees, they got in because they were that great. Sandy Koufax was the face of the Dodgers during his extraterrestrial peak period (and some still see him that way when they're not looking that way at Jackie Robinson) but that's not why he was elected first ballot, either.

Kirby Puckett is a kind of Hall of Fame outlier: his career was shortened by illness, and he wasn't quite as all-around great as people remember him, mostly because he was kind of the Derek Jeter of centerfielders: he made a pocketful of highlight-reel plays almost equal to his plate production, and he was deadly in the postseason for the most past. But he's somewhat overrated overall: according to my Real Batting Average indicator, Puckett's lifetime is .527---behind six other postwar/post-integration/night-ball Hall of Fame centerfielders and ahead of only one (Richie Ashburn). And as a defender he was 15 runs saved below his league average lifetime. Puckett actually didn't have the kind of peak value that would make people who didn't get to see him play jump up bolt upright from their seats.

I'm not arguing to remove Puckett from the Hall of Fame, by any means. (I can think of a few worse players in Cooperstown and, anyway, my list for removing people from the Hall would begin with Leo Durocher and with almost everyone rammed into the Hall despite extremely weak credentials when Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry ran the old Veterans Committee.), but as I said earlier, when all is said and done I think his election was probably a case of taking the record as it was and marrying it to the record voters thought might have become overall if glaucoma hadn't forced him to call it a career as soon as he did.

   I'd also give extra weight to a guy like Schilling, whose postseason success is the stuff folks in both Boston and Philly tell their grandkids.
Schilling's postseason success isn't the only reason he should be in the Hall of Fame. As I said in the essay, he's in the top ten all time when it comes to missing bats and he was deadly in the heat of a pennant race. To repeat again, one of the easiest ways to get into an argument with someone is to say Curt Schilling was a better big-game pitcher than Jack Morris. They'll have kittens when you say it, but the record shows it: Schilling was a better big-game pitcher, and not just in the postseason.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 02:05:04 pm by EasyAce »


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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2019, 02:17:12 pm »
...and Schilling was an Astro as well for one year.
@GrouchoTex
Schilling was used as a relief pitcher in his only Houston season. But his tenure as an Astro is remembered now for how he got to be one---in one of the worst deals in Oriole history: he was traded with Steve Finley and Pete Harnisch for Glenn Davis. Davis was a useful power hitter as an Astro but injuries ground him down even before the trade, while Schilling, Finley, and Harnisch went on to post at least useful careers: in Schilling's, case a likely Hall of Famer; in Finley's case, an above average outfielder and a terrific hitter who was part of the Diamondbacks's World Series winner and eventually won an NL West for the Dodgers with one swing---against the Giants at almost the eleventh hour, with the bases loaded and Giants foolishly pulling the infield and the outfield way in and Finley needing only to get something in the air at all, never mind something that snuck over the right field fence.)

And when the Astros flipped Schilling to the Phillies for Jason Grimsley, the Phillies clearly got the better end of that deal, even if it wasn't the worst deal in Astro history.

(Arguably, the worst in their history was sending Hall of Famer Joe Morgan, Cesar Geronimo, Jack Billingham, and Ed Armbrister, plus veteran infielder Denis Menke---to the Reds, after the 1971 season, for Tommy Helms, Lee May, and a spare part named Jimmy Stewart. Morgan, of course, was the big prize in the package for the Big Red Machine. And the Astros would send May on to the Orioles after a couple of year, where he'd be a very useful Oriole for several years before his age caught up to him after their 1979 pennant winner.)

Jeter deserves to be in the hall, but he isn't the only one on the ballot who is deserving.
Bingo the first time.  wink777
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 02:20:34 pm by EasyAce »


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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2019, 02:27:18 pm »
@GrouchoTex
Schilling was used as a relief pitcher in his only Houston season. But his tenure as an Astro is remembered now for how he got to be one---in one of the worst deals in Oriole history: he was traded with Steve Finley and Pete Harnisch for Glenn Davis. Davis was a useful power hitter as an Astro but injuries ground him down even before the trade, while Schilling, Finley, and Harnisch went on to post at least useful careers: in Schilling's, case a likely Hall of Famer; in Finley's case, an above average outfielder and a terrific hitter who was part of the Diamondbacks's World Series winner and eventually won an NL West for the Dodgers with one swing---against the Giants at almost the eleventh hour, with the bases loaded and Giants foolishly pulling the infield and the outfield way in and Finley needing only to get something in the air at all, never mind something that snuck over the right field fence.)

Correct, Glenn Davis wasn't the same "Big Bopper" as Milo Hamilton used to call him, Finley was good, and so was Harnisch.

And when the Astros flipped Schilling to the Phillies for Jason Grimsley, the Phillies clearly got the better end of that deal, even if it wasn't the worst deal in Astro history.

True, but not good, I do not even remember Jason Grimsley's stint here.

(Arguably, the worst in their history was sending Hall of Famer Joe Morgan, Cesar Geronimo, Jack Billingham, and Ed Armbrister, plus veteran infielder Denis Menke---to the Reds, after the 1971 season, for Tommy Helms, Lee May, and a spare part named Jimmy Stewart. Morgan, of course, was the big prize in the package for the Big Red Machine. And the Astros would send May on to the Orioles after a couple of year, where he'd be a very useful Oriole for several years before his age caught up to him after their 1979 pennant winner.)

I think this one is terrible, to be sure, and letting Rusty Staub go was pretty bad, too.

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 :beer:

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2019, 02:58:35 pm »
:beer:
@GrouchoTex
 :beer:

Letting Le Grande Orange was no stroke of genius (and it helped bring the Mets their 1969 World Series MVP Donn Clendenon in the end), and Trusty Rusty did eventually help the Mets get to a World Series (which they damn near won in seven games) after they got him from Montreal, but I think the Morgan deal turned out a bigger deal for the team that landed him.

Then the Mets were also stupid to send Staub to the Tigers for Mickey Lolich. Lolich was just about finished; Staub still had miles to go (including a return to the Mets as a terrific pinch hitter) before his baseball limousine slept.

Now, of course, the best deal in Astro history is a tossup between:

* Fleecing the Red Sox out of Hall of Famer Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen.
* Sending three minor leaguers to the Tigers for future Hall of Famer Justin Verlander.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 03:02:25 pm by EasyAce »


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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2019, 03:10:47 pm »
@EasyAce

I guess for the longevity as an Astro, I'd go with Bagwell, but Verlander has been fun to watch.
I got to see him live this year.

If you haven't been to Minute Maid Park, I can tell you that they have statues of Biggio and Bagwell on the Crawford Street side, just out side of the park, of Biggio throwing to first and Bagwell catching the throw.

There are a history of bad Astros moves over their 57 years of existence that would field a couple of All-Star teams, and with some Hall of Famers like Morgan, Ryan.
Still baffled why they let Ryan to the Rangers.
He was a free agent, but I do not remember his terms being extremely unreasonable, but in all fairness, I just don't remember all the details now.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 03:14:58 pm by GrouchoTex »

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2019, 04:09:32 pm »
If you haven't been to Minute Maid Park, I can tell you that they have statues of Biggio and Bagwell on the Crawford Street side, just out side of the park, of Biggio throwing to first and Bagwell catching the throw.
@GrouchoTex
I haven't been to the park itself, but I've seen the statues. They're great work.

There are a history of bad Astros moves over their 57 years of existence that would field a couple of All-Star teams, and with some Hall of Famers like Morgan, Ryan.
You could probably win a pennant with all the players teams like the Astros, the Mets, the Cubs, the Indians, and other have let go so foolishly.

Still baffled why they let Ryan to the Rangers.
He was a free agent, but I do not remember his terms being extremely unreasonable, but in all fairness, I just don't remember all the details now.
At least the Astros benefitted from another team's foolishness in getting Ryan in the first place: the Angels let him walk when then-GM Buzzie Bavasi foolishly said he could get two seven-win pitchers for a 15-game winning Ryan. After Ryan became an Astro (and baseball's first $1 million a year player while he was at it), he not only nailed his 3,000th career strikeout but he pitched his fifth no-hitter. That no-hitter prompted Bavasi to send Ryan a telegram: NOLAN, I ADMITTED I MADE A MISTAKE LETTING YOU GO. YOU DON'T HAVE TO RUB IT IN!


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Hall of Fame: One vote samba
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2019, 04:22:09 pm »
NOLAN, I ADMITTED I MADE A MISTAKE LETTING YOU GO. YOU DON'T HAVE TO RUB IT IN!

@EasyAce

That's Great, I hadn't heard that before.