Author Topic: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball  (Read 3704 times)

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Offline EasyAce

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Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« on: November 21, 2019, 05:44:26 pm »
It's about your team's and baseball's integrity. You should want answers, too.
By Yours Truly
https://throneberryfields.com/2019/11/21/mr-crane-astrogate-is-about-baseball/


Astros owner Jim Crane talking to the press, presumably
without police protection, on another occasion.


“If you want to talk about baseball, I’ll talk about baseball,” said Astros owner Jim Crane to an inquiring reporter at this week’s owners’ meetings at Arlington’s Live! By Loew’s luxury hotel. “What else do you want to talk about?” And then two police officers shepherded Crane away.

If Crane was trying to say he wasn’t going to talk about Astrogate, here’s a bulletin for him: Astrogate is about baseball. It’s about cheating in baseball, it’s about the Astros rigging an off-field camera tied to a clubhouse television set for stealing signs, it’s about violating baseball’s specific rules against that kind of sign stealing, it’s about the likelihood that they weren’t the only such extralegal reconnaissance operation.

It’s about playing the game the right way, as former Astros pitcher Mike Fiers said outright when he blew the whistle on and the covers off the Astros Intelligence Agency last week.

If none of that is baseball, we should love knowing what Crane thinks is baseball. Or what he thinks baseball is. Either way Crane offered as bad a look as the police presence at the owners’ meetings, part of which moved him away from legitimate questioning about something that is very much baseball.

Early during the Watergate scandal, Barry Goldwater said it started to smell like Teapot Dome. Early during Astrogate, I said it started to smell like the Black Sox scandal. The references weren’t just to those scandals’ gravity but to their attempted coverups. Richard Nixon in 1973 tried to get away with saying, “One year of Watergate is enough.” Crane seems to believe almost two weeks of Astrogate are enough.

Nixon’s mistake was not demanding names, places, and heads on platters from the moment he learned about the Watergate break-in. Crane’s making a mistake if he isn’t demanding names, places, and heads on platters over Astrogate. If Manfred needed any more ammunition to take after the Astros, whom he has in his specific sights for now, Crane just handed the commissioner a loaded Uzi.

Trying to say Astrogate isn’t about baseball is like trying to say Teapot Dome—in which Warren Harding’s interior secretary Albert Fall (talk about the perfect name for the job!) sold Navy oil reserves to oil baron Harry Sinclair without formal sanction or competitive bidding—was much ado about Lipton’s Tea.

Crane would do himself and Astroworld alike a phenomenal favour if he shies away from stonewalling legitimately inquiring journalists. They’re trying only to get the answers fans who support his team and the game itself want very badly. Other teams want those answers too, even those who operated similar reconnaissance to counter the Astros or otherwise.

And if Crane wants to, he can look at it this way: They’re trying to get the answers he himself should want as the owner of a team whose game-changing success run was compromised by who knows yet how many people that couldn’t resist the temptation to just that little extra edge, whatever good it did or didn’t do, extra-legally.

The questions out of Crane’s mouth to his organisation should be, “What did you know? When did you know? And who are the wisenheimers whose brainchild this was in the first place? I want names. I want places. I want heads. And I want them five minutes ago.”

He needs to be the Astro Hoover, beating, sweeping, and cleaning. Baseball observers ask what his general manager Jeff Luhnow knew and when he knew it. Manfred already has former assistant GM Brandon Taubman under questioning for taunting women reporters over domestic violence, and don’t think for a minute Manfred won’t ask Taubman what he knew and when he knew about the AIA, too.

Another Luhnow aide, Kevin Goldstein, is liable to face interrogation over his 2017 e-mail suggestion that Astro advance scouts—enough of whom seem to have quaked at the idea—use video cameras in the stands to help develop other ways of high-tech sign stealing.

Just before Astrogate began, Crane moved his son, Jared, into the Astros’ executive suite, which meant he had to move Reid Ryan out into a lesser role. Which meant Ryan’s father, Hall of Fame pitcher Nolan Ryan, leaving the Astros and saying, perhaps tellingly, “I will not be back with the club and will leave it at that.”

It’s not impossible that Manfred or his Astrogate bloodhounds have thoughts about asking Ryan if there was just a little more than a father angry about a son’s demotion prompting his departure. Especially since it happened five days before Fiers’s revelations hit the fan.

Crane doesn’t need to tell even one reporter that he’s only going to talk about baseball as if Astrogate is much ado about a spacecraft hatch. And he doesn’t need the cops to hustle him away as if he needs to be in the witness protection program.

He’s a businessman one of whose companies is involved in playing a game that millions love, in Astroworld and all over, but which has a serious enough issue that strikes at the very integrity of the game, the idea that everybody plays by prescribed rules and shouldn’t be trying extra-legal tactics to prevail in or profit from a contest or even a championship series.

That’s why the hoo-has over the Black Sox scandal (and the decade of rampant gambling/game throwing that nourished it in the first place), All-Star ballot-box stuffing (1957, on behalf of the Reds; 2015, on behalf of the Royals; others), Pete Rose’s Rule 21(d) violations, actual or alleged performance-enhancing substances (and the Selig era’s foot-dragging over it), and the ultimate confirmation (first in 2001) that The Giants stole the pennant! The Giants stole the pennant! in 1951.

If Crane doesn’t want to look at things that way, he can look at at it as a businessman: Astrogate stands to cost his baseball organisation millions—in fines, international bonus room, draft pick losses, whatever Manfred decides.

Any businessman cares about the health of his industry, no matter that he loves to one-up the competition at every legitimate chance. Crane should be very alarmed that similar hits could be laid upon other baseball teams running their own extra-legal espionage and compromising theirs and maybe, just maybe, the entire game’s credibility, too.

He should be alarmed likewise at Astrogate’s impact on his team’s credibility. It’s compromised. The Astros’ front office may have developed something of a reputation for ruthless lacking in people skills, but the team on the field built a reputation for dominant play by high character people, including some who were characters in the best ways. Astrogate now makes them look like shameless cheaters.

“When players discuss (off-field high-tech sign stealing) accusations,” Thomas Boswell wrote about the 1951 Giants and similar espionage, “it is with contempt in their voices, not amusement.”

A spitballer or corker can be caught by an umpire, who has the right to examine or confiscate equipment. Both teams play on the same damp base paths and inclined foul lines, even if they’ve been doctored a bit for home-field advantage.

But an elaborate system of sign stealing—with an old pro in the art of signs in a hidden space—is almost impossible to catch. Umps and foes are defenseless. The game becomes fundamentally unfair because knowing what’s coming is a big deal.

(Damp base paths? The 1962 Giants’ grounds crew turned the dirt around Candlestick Park’s first base into a swamp in a bid to slow down Maury Wills’s road running. Inclined foul lines? The 1950s Phillies’ grounds crews sculpted the third base line in Shibe Park into a ridge to keep Hall of Famer Richie Ashburn’s deft little bunts up the line from rolling foul so Mr. Putt Putt could beat them out for hits.)

Once or twice someone caught onto the Astroplot. Notably enough then-White Sox pitcher Danny Farquhar, a year before his tragic in-dugout brain hemorrhage, smelling enough of a rat—when he heard the boom! boom! of the clubhouse trash can being banged, sending the stolen sign deciphered on a live TV screen to an Astro hitter—that he called his catcher to the mound to switch the signs up.

“There was a banging from the dugout, almost like a bat hitting the bat rack every time a changeup signal got put down,” said Farquhar, now the pitching coach for the White Sox’s Winston-Salem (A-advanced) affiliate. “After the third one, I stepped off. I was throwing some really good changeups and they were getting fouled off. After the third bang, I stepped off.”

Crane saying he’ll talk baseball but not Astrogate, which is about baseball whether he likes it or not, makes him look further out of touch if not completely indifferent. A police presence at the owners’ meetings looks strange enough by itself without a couple of the gendarmes shielding Crane from valid questions about a rot in his team.

Try to picture the look of police shielding NBC chieftain David Sarnoff or CBS emperor Bill Paley from questioning about the quiz show chiselings of the mid-to-late 1950s. Sarnoff and Paley may not have wanted to own the fixings on Twenty-One or The $64,000 Question, since they weren’t exactly the masterminds, but neither did they call the cops when the press and Congressional investigators finally came a-calling.

Better yet, try to picture the look of the fuzz shielding American presidents, from the incumbent on back, way back, from legitimate questioning about why they forgot there was a crazy little thing called the Constitution that doesn’t, as the somewhat notorious incumbent prefers to believe otherwise, let them just do whatever they damn well please in office.

Those looks would be terrible. And it’s a terrible look for a baseball owner whose team has won, in three seasons, three American League Wests and one World Series, got to within eight outs of winning a Second series, but now looks as though the rules against off-the-field electronic video sign stealing either didn’t apply or didn’t exist.
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"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 06:01:13 pm »
Crane’s making a mistake if he isn’t demanding names, places, and heads on platters over Astrogate. If Manfred needed any more ammunition to take after the Astros, whom he has in his specific sights for now, Crane just handed the commissioner a loaded Uzi.

That's a big assumption you are making, all because he didn't want to talk to reporters about it?
We don't know he hasn't done any of these things.
If it is just semantics, would you feel better about it if he had said "No comment", or "We'll talk again soon, when the investigation is over"?

Better yet, try to picture the look of the fuzz shielding American presidents, from the incumbent on back, way back, from legitimate questioning about why they forgot there was a crazy little thing called the Constitution that doesn’t, as the somewhat notorious incumbent prefers to believe otherwise, let them just do whatever they damn well please in office.


But he is not the incumbent or former POTUS, he is the owner of a baseball team, a private citizen, whose team is under investigation by it's governing board right now.
To say he is duty bound by office on constitutional grounds to tell talk to reporters, or, at least comparing it to the same, is extreme.


You mad, bro?

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2019, 06:54:49 pm »
That's a big assumption you are making, all because he didn't want to talk to reporters about it?
We don't know he hasn't done any of these things.
@GrouchoTex
But we don't know whether he has done them, either.

If it is just semantics, would you feel better about it if he had said "No comment", or "We'll talk again soon, when the investigation is over"?
Actually, I probably would have felt better about "We'll talk again soon, when the investigation is over." It would have been a far better look, for him and the team. We'd know a little more confidently that he is looking to get to the bottom of it.

Better yet, try to picture the look of the fuzz shielding American presidents, from the incumbent on back, way back, from legitimate questioning about why they forgot there was a crazy little thing called the Constitution that doesn’t, as the somewhat notorious incumbent prefers to believe otherwise, let them just do whatever they damn well please in office.


But he is not the incumbent or former POTUS, he is the owner of a baseball team, a private citizen, whose team is under investigation by it's governing board right now.
To say he is duty bound by office on constitutional grounds to tell talk to reporters, or, at least comparing it to the same, is extreme.

I didn't exactly imply Crane is duty bound by constitutional grounds; I merely used police protection of such questioning of such presidents on those grounds as a comparable example.

But he is bound by other grounds.

Grounds such as the fans who pay their hard earned dough to go to Astro games in a very public ballpark paid for with Astro fans' tax dollars and have a right to know that what they see on the field is as honest as humanly possible.

Grounds such as the rules of the game itself which his team is accused very plausibly of breaking.

Grounds such as accountability to Astro administrators and (if it applies here) stockholders who have the implicit right to know that their business is being conducted properly. (I operate for now---pending any further revelations---that not every last Astro front office person knew what the Astro Intelligence Agency was up to.)

Grounds such as accountability to those who bought the rights to broadcast Astro games or games involving the Astros and have a similar right to know that what they were showing on the air was played straight. (Notwithstanding my once-upon-a-time, puckish observation that baseball's the only reality television I care to watch, I know bloody well that actual "reality" television is often as rigged as so many of those 1950s quiz shows.)

You mad, bro?

I would think every last Astro fan on earth, for openers, should be mad as hell that this kind of thing went on in one season at least, making the Astros look like cheaters. (Remember: Sign-stealing on the field itself is just gamesmanship, but doing it electronically or otherwise technically from off the field is plain cheating.)

Just as Chicago fans and everyone in baseball were outraged over the 1919 White Sox and just how rampant game-fixing for fun and gamblers' payoffs was in the decade and a half that preceded the Black Sox scandal.

Just as Giant fans and their descendants in due course were as outraged as Dodger fans and their descendants when it was finally confirmed The Giants stole the pennant! The Giants stole the pennant!

Just as I know other fans were outraged over the All Star ballot box stuffings involving the 1957 Reds and the 2015 Royals, among possible others. (There were those who thought Giants fans were doing a little ballot box stuffing on behalf of the 2010 Giants, too, as I remember.)

Just as Yankee fans were outraged when a) learning that then-GM George Weiss sicced private detectives on his players to track their off-field doings in 1957-58 (though how the gumshoes got foiled and exposed is a laugh in its own right); and, b) learning that George Steinbrenner paid off a low-level gambler and felon to dig up dirt on Hall of Famer Dave Winfield in the late 1980s through 1990.

Just as lots of fans and other baseball observers were outraged when then-commissioner Bowie Kuhn tried to quash Jim Bouton's Ball Four, including trying to force him to sign a statement that the whole thing was his editor's nefarious doing. (Bouton, of course, wouldn't budge.)

Just as fans and more than a few lower-level baseball executives as well as players were outraged over the owners' 1980s collusion. (Who says owners are less capable of cheating than players?)

Just as baseball fans not bound to a single team were outraged over the actual or alleged performance-enhancing substances.

You've expressed your own dismay over Astrogate it in these spaces, and so have other Astro fans. Even more than me as a professional writer, you and they should want answers as soon as you can get them, and you should want no less than the team's owner to demand such accountability. Because it's his business, his team they've compromised.

If I owned a baseball team caught in this kind of thing and a reporter asked me what I had to say, I'd like to think my answer would be either, "I want the answers even faster than you and the commissioner and I'm going to get them"; or, "I'm already going after those answers above and beyond what you and we know already, and, as soon as I have them, I'm going to blow my own whistle because this is my team they've screwed up and those are my fans who've paid through the nose to see my team play, and---in the immortal words of Paul Richards---ladies and gentlemen, we've just been [fornicated]."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 06:56:27 pm by EasyAce »


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Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2019, 07:37:43 pm »
@EasyAce
Oh yeah, I'm still upset about this, I just wonder if there was anything he could say yesterday that he might have to walk back later.
I suppose it didn't take Crane's refusal to talk about it yesterday that hard.
I don't really know what he is supposed to do, not yet, anyway.

For some reason, I didn't get your previous article in my mentions, even though you did ping me.
I'll go back and read that now.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 07:44:51 pm »
@EasyAce
Oh yeah, I'm still upset about this, I just wonder if there was anything he could say yesterday that he might have to walk back later.
I suppose it didn't take Crane's refusal to talk about it yesterday that hard.
I don't really know what he is supposed to do, not yet, anyway.
@GrouchoTex
I only know what I would do, as I said before, if I was the Astros' owner and my team got caught pulling shenanigans like that. For all the reasons I outlined. If you want to put it in just plain business terms, you could say he should be thinking, "I want to know who decided to screw around with my investment and injected you idiots with the stupid virus!"

For some reason, I didn't get your previous article in my mentions, even though you did ping me.
I'll go back and read that now.
I notice that happens quite a bit to ping lists around here. Unfortunately, I lack the technical expertise to solve it. But keep on reading!


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

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Online catfish1957

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2019, 03:21:14 pm »
It's about your team's and baseball's integrity. You should want answers, too.
By Yours Truly


So Crane is supposed to comment during an active investigation?  Your Astro hate sometimes clouds commons sense. 

Like I said on another thread /.....  Bring it.  And make sure all 30 teams get the same rectal examination

Let's clean up this game COMPLETELY, once and for all.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 03:22:29 pm by catfish1957 »
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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2019, 03:53:16 pm »
The democrats are bound and determined to destroy this country so why not America's game as well?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Online catfish1957

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2019, 04:00:37 pm »
The democrats are bound and determined to destroy this country so why not America's game as well?

As far as Crane,

If his Wikipedia Page can be believed, he is a democrat and friend of Barak Obama.  Which is odd, considering Nolan Ryan is a strong conservative, and has been rumoured to join TX politics for some time.  Guess they leave the politco discussions elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crane
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2019, 04:18:53 pm »
As far as Crane,

If his Wikipedia Page can be believed, he is a democrat and friend of Barak Obama.  Which is odd, considering Nolan Ryan is a strong conservative, and has been rumoured to join TX politics for some time.  Guess they leave the politco discussions elsewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crane
 

Didn't Nolan Ryan leave the Astros on Nov 7th?   I don't see what is so strange about a friend of Barack Obama owning an MLB franchise containing....the horror.... Conservatives in an advisor role?

Did Nolan Ryan threaten to go public on the high-tech cheating that ultimately gave them a tainted championship?
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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2019, 04:27:00 pm »
 

Didn't Nolan Ryan leave the Astros on Nov 7th?   I don't see what is so strange about a friend of Barack Obama owning an MLB franchise containing....the horror.... Conservatives in an advisor role?

Did Nolan Ryan threaten to go public on the high-tech cheating that ultimately gave them a tainted championship?

No... scuttlebutt is Nolan got butt hurt when his son was ousted in his role as President of Baseball Operations.  (Crane's son took over)
As far as I know, Ryan has been absolutely silent on everything  since, concerning the Astros.  Of course, he may have been made privy of what was coming down the pike, but who knows at this point.

And on the political front, it is a tad strange, becuase Nolan has been pretty vocal the past 20 years or so.   But as I said,  I bet the politco discussions were left outside the stadium.

Tainted championship?   Bullshit like that, before all the facts are in, I thought you were better than that?   BTW?  How clean are the Nats?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 04:41:26 pm by catfish1957 »
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2019, 04:33:04 pm »
So Crane is supposed to comment during an active investigation?  Your Astro hate sometimes clouds commons sense.
He doesn't have to give the gory details of the probe before the probe is finished, but it's not a brilliant idea to say it's not baseball when it very much is baseball---with his own team's hard built credibility standing to be soiled if not destroyed.

Let me reitierate what I said answering someone else on this thread: If I owned a baseball team caught in this kind of thing and a reporter asked me what I had to say, I'd like to think my answer would be either, "I want the answers even faster than you and the commissioner and I'm going to get them"; or, "I'm already going after those answers above and beyond what you and we know already, and, as soon as I have them, I'm going to blow my own whistle because this is my team they've screwed up and those are my fans who've paid through the nose to see my team play, and---in the immortal words of Paul Richards---ladies and gentlemen, we've just been [fornicated]."

He wouldn't have had to go into detail otherwise, but he wouldn't have looked as though he were either clueless (if he is, he should be pitied) or stonewalling, either.

And I'd say it no matter which team or how many more it happened to be. I couldn't guess how many more, but I've been sure from the outset that several more either had their own versions of the Astro Intelligence Agency or had just one or two such spies on the loose. Mike Fiers happened to blow the whistle credibly on the Astros. It's not impossible to think some other player might do likewise regarding some other team.

Like I said on another thread /.....  Bring it.  And make sure all 30 teams get the same rectal examination.
You may have missed where I've written previously . . .

If the Astros are actually guilty of electrotheft, they may be the least embarrassed about it but they’re probably not even close to alone. The Red Sox and the Yankees proved that in 2017. For openers, possibly. (In "Spy vs. Spy?", the piece I wrote when Astrogate first erupted.)

Reality check: The Astros—or whomever among them created their AIA—aren’t the only such electronic thieves, merely the latest to be caught red Octobered.  (In "'The contest cannot in its essence exist'.")

Astrogate shouldn’t stop with the Astros no matter how brazen their operation or how unapologetic their Twitterpated. Or, no matter how risky it might actually be for Manfred to expand the probe, discover more franchises actually doing something close to the AIA, but make enemies enough among the owners who employ him that he could be dumped in due course . . . Whether it’s the Astros alone, or several more teams operating their own versions of the AIA, the punishments can’t be mere wrist slaps this time. Even at the risk of Manfred’s long-term job survival. (In "Astrogate's gut check for Manfred and baseball.")

Let's clean up this game COMPLETELY, once and for all.
On that I think we were agreed from the outset without saying it.


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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 04:39:00 pm »
Did Nolan Ryan threaten to go public on the high-tech cheating that ultimately gave them a tainted championship?
@DCPatriot

He may or may not have made such a threat on the inside, but note again the only thing the Hall of Famer said about his departure: I will not be back with the club and will leave it at that.

It could have been about his son. It could have been about the Brandon Taubman kerfuffle. It could have been about the coming Astrogate dustup, if Ryan had wind of the shenanigans before Mike Fiers blew the whistle publicly. It could have been all the above. And if there's one man in Texas you don't want to screw, screw around with, or screw or in front of, it's Nolan Ryan. He's the same kind of icon in Texas and elsewhere that Yogi Berra was (and still is, even posthumously) in New York and elsewhere.


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 05:00:17 pm »
@DCPatriot

He may or may not have made such a threat on the inside, but note again the only thing the Hall of Famer said about his departure: I will not be back with the club and will leave it at that.

It could have been about his son. It could have been about the Brandon Taubman kerfuffle. It could have been about the coming Astrogate dustup, if Ryan had wind of the shenanigans before Mike Fiers blew the whistle publicly. It could have been all the above. And if there's one man in Texas you don't want to screw, screw around with, or screw or in front of, it's Nolan Ryan. He's the same kind of icon in Texas and elsewhere that Yogi Berra was (and still is, even posthumously) in New York and elsewhere.

@EasyAce
@catfish1957

If you meant 'beloved', the comparison to Berra is fitting.

That said, I don't see the analogy.

Money says that Nolan Ryan was not a party to the pitch-tipping.  For all your aforementioned...Ryan would just leave the Game. 

Instead, he's gonna be a Ranger again.

Makes me also wonder how the 'whistleblower', Mike Fiers, will fare in The Show for the rest of his career.

The reality of the crushing disappointment keeps returning every time I 'see' Bregman's and Altuve's grins in my mind's eye. 

All the adoration they got from their fans not only in Houston, but across the nation.

This is not cool.
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 05:15:49 pm »
Truth is, we should expect ASTRO offensive numbers to drop dramatically in many categories next season.

Will be interesting to see if their boyish, cherub-like personalities are still able to garner All-Star votes...enough to overcome the production drop.

I wouldn't be surprised if their own fans boo them on Opening Day as they stand in the box.


....


and for those who claim cheating has been going on since Easterday invented the Game?

IMO, this is different.  This isn't a player depending on what his teammates see while standing on 2nd base.

At 73, I could hit a baseball 400 ft, if I knew the speed and location ahead of time.   Well okay...maybe 300 ft.    happy77

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Online catfish1957

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 05:20:50 pm »
Truth is, we should expect ASTRO offensive numbers to drop dramatically in many categories next season.

Will be interesting to see if their boyish, cherub-like personalities are still able to garner All-Star votes...enough to overcome the production drop.

I wouldn't be surprised if their own fans boo them on Opening Day as they stand in the box.


....


and for those who claim cheating has been going on since Easterday invented the Game?

IMO, this is different.  This isn't a player depending on what his teammates see while standing on 2nd base.

At 73, I could hit a baseball 400 ft, if I knew the speed and location ahead of time.   Well okay...maybe 300 ft.    happy77

Still eager to see how clean the Nats are.  I hope we all 30 teams investigated  Hope you repsond then.

Or more concerned of how the team and their fans treated Trump.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 05:24:26 pm by catfish1957 »
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2019, 05:21:34 pm »
@EasyAce
@catfish1957

If you meant 'beloved', the comparison to Berra is fitting.

That said, I don't see the analogy.
@DCPatriot
I'm pretty sure Ryan is as iconic in Texas as Yogi is in New York. Ryan may not have Yogi's international popularity, but in Texas you don't mess with the Express.  wink777

Money says that Nolan Ryan was not a party to the pitch-tipping.  For all your aforementioned...Ryan would just leave the Game.
Not even close to being part of the AIA, and he probably would just leave the game. But you have to wonder what other than his son's demotion in favour of Crane's boy would have prompted Ryan to bolt considering his son was merely moved to another gig and not removed from the Astro apparatus entirely.

Instead, he's gonna be a Ranger again.
And they'd be lucky to have him again.

Makes me also wonder how the 'whistleblower', Mike Fiers, will fare in The Show for the rest of his career.
Keep in mind that Fiers already blew that whistle in the clubhouses in Detroit and, this season Oakland, warning Tigers and Athletics teammates that the Astros had the electonic espionage thing going. And keep in mind, too, the quote from Thomas Boswell when he wrote about the once-and-for-all-confirmed exposure of the 1951 Giants' spy operation:

When players discuss (off-field high-tech sign stealing) accusations, it is with contempt in their voices, not amusement. A spitballer or corker can be caught by an umpire, who has the right to examine or confiscate equipment. Both teams play on the same damp base paths and inclined foul lines, even if they’ve been doctored a bit for home-field advantage.

But an elaborate system of sign stealing—with an old pro in the art of signs in a hidden space—is almost impossible to catch. Umps and foes are defenseless. The game becomes fundamentally unfair because knowing what’s coming is a big deal.

(Emphasis added.)

The reality of the crushing disappointment keeps returning every time I 'see' Bregman's and Altuve's grins in my mind's eye. 
I'm going to admit here something I've probably said before---whenever I watched the Astros play, Jose Altuve was my personal favourite Astro. I've always had a particular admiration for the little big men especially if they seem to be as impish as Altuve can be. Blindfold me, spin me like a top, then point me to the one Astro I think loves the game the most and I'll have an arm around Altuve in a heartbeat.

I admit it---I was thrilled to death when he pounced on Yankee manager Aaron Boone's mistake in Game Six of the ALCS: when an obviously drained Aroldis Chapman fell to 2-0 on Altuve with George Springer on first, the move to make for Boone should have been handing Altuve the free pass to pitch to on-deck spaghetti bat Jake Marisnick instead. Oops. Boone let Chapman finish what he started, and Altuve finished him and the Yankees with a two-run homer nobody in Houston or anywhere else will forget. Ever. Altuve bought himself a lifetime of free steaks and drinks with that bomb. Boone probably should have been Manager of the Year for navigating the American League's version of a M*A*S*H post-op ward to 103 wins, but not putting Altuve aboard to pitch to Marisnick instead cost him one more chance to get to the World Series. (And, negated D.J. LeMahieu's rather dramatic game-tying bomb in the top of the ninth while he was at it.)

And it would sicken me if Altuve turned out to be one of the Astros accepting electronically stolen signs, especially because he does play the game as the textbook example of Hall of Famer Roy Campanella's old maxim: To play this game right you've got to have a lot of little boy in you.

(Before anyone else laughs, be reminded that when Leo Durocher held the '51 Giants team meeting in which he announced to his players the Wollensak sign stealing plot, he asked who wanted the stolen signs---and his two Hall of Famers, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays, said they didn't want stolen signs. Durocher thought the pair was out of their pointed heads. As if refusing to cheat was a character flaw!)

All the adoration they got from their fans not only in Houston, but across the nation.

This is not cool.
Not in the slightest.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 05:29:31 pm by EasyAce »


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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2019, 05:22:34 pm »
Truth is, we should expect ASTRO offensive numbers to drop dramatically in many categories next season.

Will be interesting to see if their boyish, cherub-like personalities are still able to garner All-Star votes...enough to overcome the production drop.

I wouldn't be surprised if their own fans boo them on Opening Day as they stand in the box.


....


and for those who claim cheating has been going on since Easterday invented the Game?

IMO, this is different.  This isn't a player depending on what his teammates see while standing on 2nd base.

At 73, I could hit a baseball 400 ft, if I knew the speed and location ahead of time.   Well okay...maybe 300 ft.    happy77

So you actually believe it possible to get information gathered by a camera to a batter in the time between a catcher giving a sign and a pitcher's delivery?  If so, I have a bridge I would love to sell you!   **nononono*
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Online catfish1957

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2019, 05:26:45 pm »
So you actually believe it possible to get information gathered by a camera to a batter in the time between a catcher giving a sign and a pitcher's delivery?  If so, I have a bridge I would love to sell you!   **nononono*

I did a brief narrative of a flow charted process of what and how a CF stolen sign would play out considering logistics, and human reflex ability.  If they were doing it, they were hamstringing themsleves by focusing more on the the cheating, and less on playiing baseball.  I am anxious to see how much of this is fabricated bullshit at the end.
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2019, 05:27:06 pm »
Truth is, we should expect ASTRO offensive numbers to drop dramatically in many categories next season.

Will be interesting to see if their boyish, cherub-like personalities are still able to garner All-Star votes...enough to overcome the production drop.
@DCPatriot

You may remember what I wrote in an earlier Astrogate piece:

If you ask whether Astrogate taints their run of three American League West titles and two pennants, you might also ask why a team that great, with as forward-thinking an organisation as theirs, needs technocheating in the first place.

These Astros are sharper than chefs’ knives at the plate and in the field. They exploit the slightest opposition mistakes with minds over matter. Tip your pitches? They sautee you. Slip out of position? They broil you. Hang a breaking ball? They slice, dice, and puree  you. They needed to take up high-tech heisting about as badly as Superman needed a gym membership.

and for those who claim cheating has been going on since Easterday invented the Game?

IMO, this is different.  This isn't a player depending on what his teammates see while standing on 2nd base.
In your opinion, my opinion, and according to the rules. Sign-stealing from off the field at all, never mind with binoculars or spyglasses or rifle scopes (the scope on pitcher Tommy Bridges' hunting rifle was used by the 1940 Tigers to steal signs from the Briggs Stadium outfield stands) was against the rules even in Leo Durocher's time.

At 73, I could hit a baseball 400 ft, if I knew the speed and location ahead of time.   Well okay...maybe 300 ft.    happy77
I had my Beatles birthday on Monday (you know---"When I'm Sixty-Four") and 300 is about right for me with a good swing, too. Subject to change without further notice, of course, you can't beat the ol' biology.


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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2019, 05:37:08 pm »
@DCPatriot
I'm pretty sure Ryan is as iconic in Texas as Yogi is in New York. Ryan may not have Yogi's international popularity, but in Texas you don't mess with the Express.  wink777
Not even close to being part of the AIA, and he probably would just leave the game. But you have to wonder what other than his son's demotion in favour of Crane's boy would have prompted Ryan to bolt considering his son was merely moved to another gig and not removed from the Astro apparatus entirely.
And they'd be lucky to have him again.
Keep in mind that Fiers already blew that whistle in the clubhouses in Detroit and, this season Oakland, warning Tigers and Athletics teammates that the Astros had the electonic espionage thing going. And keep in mind, too, the quote from Thomas Boswell when he wrote about the once-and-for-all-confirmed exposure of the 1951 Giants' spy operation:

When players discuss (off-field high-tech sign stealing) accusations, it is with contempt in their voices, not amusement. A spitballer or corker can be caught by an umpire, who has the right to examine or confiscate equipment. Both teams play on the same damp base paths and inclined foul lines, even if they’ve been doctored a bit for home-field advantage.

But an elaborate system of sign stealing—with an old pro in the art of signs in a hidden space—is almost impossible to catch. Umps and foes are defenseless. The game becomes fundamentally unfair because knowing what’s coming is a big deal.

(Emphasis added.)
I'm going to admit here something I've probably said before---whenever I watched the Astros play, Jose Altuve was my personal favourite Astro. I've always had a particular admiration for the little big men especially if they seem to be as impish as Altuve can be. Blindfold me, spin me like a top, then point me to the one Astro I think loves the game the most and I'll have an arm around Altuve in a heartbeat.

I admit it---I was thrilled to death when he pounced on Yankee manager Aaron Boone's mistake in Game Six of the ALCS: when an obviously drained Aroldis Chapman fell to 2-0 on Altuve with George Springer on first, the move to make for Boone should have been handing Altuve the free pass to pitch to on-deck spaghetti bat Jake Marisnick instead. Oops. Boone let Chapman finish what he started, and Altuve finished him and the Yankees with a two-run homer nobody in Houston or anywhere else will forget. Ever. Altuve bought himself a lifetime of free steaks and drinks with that bomb. Boone probably should have been Manager of the Year for navigating the American League's version of a M*A*S*H post-op ward to 103 wins, but not putting Altuve aboard to pitch to Marisnick instead cost him one more chance to get to the World Series. (And, negated D.J. LeMahieu's rather dramatic game-tying bomb in the top of the ninth while he was at it.)

And it would sicken me if Altuve turned out to be one of the Astros accepting electronically stolen signs, especially because he does play the game as the textbook example of Hall of Famer Roy Campanella's old maxim: To play this game right you've got to have a lot of little boy in you.

(Before anyone else laughs, be reminded that when Leo Durocher held the '51 Giants team meeting in which he announced to his players the Wollensak sign stealing plot, he asked who wanted the stolen signs---and his two Hall of Famers, Monte Irvin and Willie Mays, said they didn't want stolen signs. Durocher thought the pair was out of their pointed heads. As if refusing to cheat was a character flaw!)
Not in the slightest.


@EasyAce

You're the best!!   Seriously!!    :beer:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2019, 05:46:21 pm »
What sign-stealing is, at least of the technologically-advanced sort employed by the Astros, is home-field advantage.   The visitor can't create the elaborate set-up to detect and transmit signs that the home team can.  And the visitor risks confusing its own pitcher and catcher by adopting new or more complicated signs than the home team is able to use.   

Should the Astros face repercussions for this?  Absolutely.   The home team may have an inherent advantage, but it shouldn't be an unfair one.   
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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2019, 05:46:42 pm »

@EasyAce

You're the best!!   Seriously!!    :beer:
@DCPatriot
 :beer:
Muchas grassy ass, brother!


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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2019, 05:47:28 pm »

@EasyAce

You're the best!!   Seriously!!    :beer:

Concur.  EA's writing rivals anything I read in the Athletic.   
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Offline EasyAce

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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2019, 05:54:30 pm »
What sign-stealing is, at least of the technologically-advanced sort employed by the Astros, is home-field advantage.   The visitor can't create the elaborate set-up to detect and transmit signs that the home team can.  And the visitor risks confusing its own pitcher and catcher by adopting new or more complicated signs than the home team is able to use. 
@Jazzhead
Actually, the visiting team can steal signs off the field. They can't get away with the kind of electronic rig the Astros used at home, of course, but they can plant people off the field behind the outfield with hand-held telescopes or binoculars. To name just one example, two Braves---pitchers Bob Buhl and Joey Jay---got caught doing just that in the Wrigley Field bleachers in 1960. Dressed as ordinary bleacher creatures, Buhl and Jay each had binoculars trained on the Cubs' catcher and relayed the stolen signs by maniuplating their white scorecards a la Connie Mack using his scorecard in the dugout to change the positionings of his Philadelphia Athletics outfielders once upon a time. They got nailed when a couple of particularly sharp Cub fans recognised the two pitchers even out of uniform and warned the Cubs bullpen that Buhl and Jay were in the bleachers and up to no good.

And when the 1940 Tigers decided to make extracurricular use of pitcher Tommy Bridges' hunting rifle sight for sign stealing, they were likely doing it as often on the road as they were in old Briggs Stadium's (eventually renamed Tiger Stadium, of course) upper deck past center field.

Should the Astros face repercussions for this?  Absolutely.   The home team may have an inherent advantage, but it shouldn't be an unfair one.   
Remember: in August 2017, the Red Sox got slapped for one of their people using an AppleWatch to steal Yankee signs, and the Yankees got slapped likewise for having an unofficial telephone (possibly a cell phone, I don't remember off the top of my head) in their dugout. The Astros should face repercussions over Astrogate---and so should any other team the probe turns up deploying a similar off-field-based intelligence operation.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 05:55:49 pm by EasyAce »


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Re: Mr. Crane, Astrogate IS about baseball
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2019, 05:55:29 pm »
Concur.  EA's writing rivals anything I read in the Athletic.
@Jazzhead
Flattery will get you everywhere. (The Athletic staff includes one of my all-time favourite baseball writers, Spink Award winner Jayson Stark.)


"The question of who is right is a small one, indeed, beside the question of what is right."---Albert Jay Nock.

Fake news---news you don't like or don't want to hear.