Natural Gas Could Be Replaced Within 15 Years

[Cyber Liberty]

Nope.

But I do know downtown Spokane Wa has been heated by geothermal for decades. And most of the equipment is original to the project all those decades ago.

Where geothermal is a feature, that it is not used to generate power is a ridiculous oversight.

Not an oversight.  There ain't gummint graft to be made trying to build a geothermal plant where there are no volcanoes around.  They can pretend the sun is shining in Seattle if that's what it takes to pump cash in a Rat's Congressional District.

Geothermal and Nukes are the red-headed stepchildren at the taxpayer trough.

[roamer_1]

Not an oversight.  There ain't gummint graft to be made trying to build a geothermal plant where there are no volcanoes around.  They can pretend the sun is shining in Seattle if that's what it takes to pump cash in a Rat's Congressional District.

Geothermal and Nukes are the red-headed stepchildren at the taxpayer trough.

You're right about that... Hard to make graft out of what comes out of the ground for free...

My favorite is hydro... Been playing with it for years. Dunno if I ever said it here, but my bucket list was supposed to end in a holler by a fast creek with a wood shop powered by a water wheel... I mean old school, belts and drive shafts... But throwing a generator in that wheel is nearly an afterthought.

The wheel would never even know it is there.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Nope.

But I do know downtown Spokane Wa has been heated by geothermal for decades. And most of the equipment is original to the project all those decades ago.

Where geothermal is a feature, that it is not used to generate power is a ridiculous oversight.

Then Spokane has adapted to handling the NORM and other accumulated buildup.

I used to work geothermal in Indonesia and my brother worked it in California and Nevada.

The solids on those pipes are far worse to deal with than oil field piping.

[roamer_1]

Then Spokane has adapted to handling the NORM and other accumulated buildup.

I used to work geothermal in Indonesia and my brother worked it in California and Nevada.

The solids on those pipes are far worse to deal with than oil field piping.

Don't know - I do know more than passing, having spent some time on the porch with a civil engineer who was part and parcel with it... I seem to recall that the steam is exchanged and the main system is not the geothermal water. Don't hold me down and beat me with that - That conversation was decades ago.

[thackney]

The United States leads the world in the amount of electricity generated with geothermal energy. In 2018, there were geothermal power plants in seven states, which produced about 16.7 billion kilowatthours (kWh), equal to 0.4% of total U.S. utility-scale electricity generation.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/geothermal/use-of-geothermal-energy.php

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Don't know - I do know more than passing, having spent some time on the porch with a civil engineer who was part and parcel with it... I seem to recall that the steam is exchanged and the main system is not the geothermal water. Don't hold me down and beat me with that - That conversation was decades ago.

If one can develop a system that does not transport geothermal fluids but instead closed-loop circulated fluids that transfer heat, then I agree that appears a very environmentally friendly solution.


Most geothermal energy systems are instead done by injection and producing geothermal fluids from the earth which flash out as steam at surface conditions.  These fluids contain a lot of minerals which produce solids when flashed, including NORM.

[Joe Wooten]

Nope.

But I do know downtown Spokane Wa has been heated by geothermal for decades. And most of the equipment is original to the project all those decades ago.

Where geothermal is a feature, that it is not used to generate power is a ridiculous oversight.

Take a look at the equipment replacement rates at the Geysers Geothermal plant. Very high with the sulfuric and nitric acids and salts in the steam coming up from the ground.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suspect that there's a huge difference between geothermal used to extract some heat to warm up a building vs used to make steam?

[thackney]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suspect that there's a huge difference between geothermal used to extract some heat to warm up a building vs used to make steam?

Regardless of the application, the major difference is closed loop versus open loop.

Open loop you bring up steam from natural sources.

Closed loop you pipe clean material only in the pipe to the heat source and bring it back up.

As described above in IsailedawayfromFR posts. 

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Regardless of the application, the major difference is closed loop versus open loop.

Open loop you bring up steam from natural sources.

Closed loop you pipe clean material only in the pipe to the heat source and bring it back up.

As described above in IsailedawayfromFR posts.

I do not know of any closed loop power generation applications, but there might be.  The ones I have seen are simply heat exchangers to warm or cool.

Since we are talking about power generation, the point is that Geothermal generated power is not an environmentally friendly way to get it.

[Smokin Joe]

If you mean Geothermal, the precipitants from that steam is some of the nastiest stuff found on earth.

It accumulates at a rapid rate, and hard to dispose of.

Ever heard of NORM?

Yep (Naturally Occurring Radioactive Materials). That is site dependent, though.

But the geothermal that makes the most sense is the ground loop sort for large buildings that simply uses heat exchange with the ground underneath them, and can impart considerable savings in heating and cooling, especially at higher latitudes.

[roamer_1]

Since we are talking about power generation, the point is that Geothermal generated power is not an environmentally friendly way to get it.

Right, unless the geothermal vent is already there - and already a naturally occurring contaminant. I had specified an existing feature...

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Right, unless the geothermal vent is already there - and already a naturally occurring contaminant. I had specified an existing feature...

And like I said, I was not aware of any closed loop that generate power rather than just heating space.

You must  aware of some then?

[roamer_1]

And like I said, I was not aware of any closed loop that generate power rather than just heating space.

You must  aware of some then?

Not in particular - But steam turning an impeller is not a novel idea 

[aligncare]

Not until there is a bulletproof way to handle the waste.

As for long term renewable clean and safe energy production... Geo and Hydro and nothing else.

The technology for safe disposal is already here. The enviroweenies simply oppose any power generation that isn’t wind or solar and won’t even give it a second look.  Heck, I don’t know what’s wrong with them. 


Nuclear Waste Disposal Methods
Geological Disposal. The process of geological disposal centers on burrowing nuclear waste into the ground to the point where it is out of human reach. ...
Reprocessing. Reprocessing has also emerged as a viable long term method for dealing with waste. ...
Transmutation. ...
Space Disposal. ...
Conclusion. ...
References.
Mar 9, 2011
Stanford University › large › ali2
Nuclear Waste Disposal Methods - Stanford University

[roamer_1]

The technology for safe disposal is already here. The enviroweenies simply oppose any power generation that isn’t wind or solar and won’t even give it a second look.  Heck, I don’t know what’s wrong with them. 


Nuclear Waste Disposal Methods
Geological Disposal. The process of geological disposal centers on burrowing nuclear waste into the ground to the point where it is out of human reach. ...
Reprocessing. Reprocessing has also emerged as a viable long term method for dealing with waste. ...
Transmutation. ...
Space Disposal. ...
Conclusion. ...
References.
Mar 9, 2011
Stanford University › large › ali2
Nuclear Waste Disposal Methods - Stanford University

Not my gig, so I will defer... But all I hear about is salt mines... And warnings in pictures around them because the crap will be hot longer than present languages will be around... 

If you can get it inert, or even inert in a few decades, That I think is a doable thing.

[thackney]

And like I said, I was not aware of any closed loop that generate power rather than just heating space.

You must  aware of some then?

It is a new thing.

GreenFire Energy Completes Construction of the First Field-Scale Demonstration of Closed-Loop Geothermal Power Generation
https://www.powermag.com/press-releases/greenfire-energy-completes-construction-of-the-first-field-scale-demonstration-of-closed-loop-geothermal-power-generation/
04/16/2019

GreenFire Energy Inc. today announced the completion of construction and the beginning of testing of the world’s first field-scale demonstration of a closed-loop geothermal power system. The project uses an inactive well in the Coso, California, geothermal field. Acceptance testing of key components is in process and active flow testing will begin in early May. A final report of testing results will be made available to the California Energy Commission and project participants later this year....

[Joe Wooten]

It is a new thing.

GreenFire Energy Completes Construction of the First Field-Scale Demonstration of Closed-Loop Geothermal Power Generation
https://www.powermag.com/press-releases/greenfire-energy-completes-construction-of-the-first-field-scale-demonstration-of-closed-loop-geothermal-power-generation/
04/16/2019

GreenFire Energy Inc. today announced the completion of construction and the beginning of testing of the world’s first field-scale demonstration of a closed-loop geothermal power system. The project uses an inactive well in the Coso, California, geothermal field. Acceptance testing of key components is in process and active flow testing will begin in early May. A final report of testing results will be made available to the California Energy Commission and project participants later this year....

I'd bet that the capital costs per kW are probably higher than nuclear....

[Sanguine]

Not until there is a bulletproof way to handle the waste.

As for long term renewable clean and safe energy production... Geo and Hydro and nothing else.

The waste is much less that you might think and fairly handleable now.

[Cyber Liberty]

The waste is much less that you might think and fairly handleable now.

The Environmental wackos made it fashionable to hate nukes.  Three Mile Island was an early example of not letting a crisis go to waste.

[Bigun]

The waste is much less that you might think and fairly handleable now.

I'm fairly certain that there are some newer designs that produce no nuclear waste at all @Sanguine.

[thackney]

I'm fairly certain that there are some newer designs that produce no nuclear waste at all.

A breeder reactor?  I would be interested in reading more about those.

[Sanguine]

I'm fairly certain that there are some newer designs that produce no nuclear waste at all @Sanguine.

Yes, I'd forgotten those.

[Elderberry]

This Nuclear Reactor Eats Nuclear Waste

https://www.fastcompany.com/3043099/this-nuclear-reactor-eats-nuclear-waste

Nuclear power provides the promise of carbon-free electricity, but there are just too many “buts” for many people to accept. No one wants another Fukushima and the United States still doesn’t know what to do with more than 60,000 tons of radioactive waste that has accumulated at its reactor sites. Then there’s the issue of nuclear weapons proliferation and national security to worry about, not to mention the environmental toll of mining for uranium.

A startup–itself a rare concept in the nuclear industry–is working on designs for a new reactor that could address many of these concerns. Transatomic Power’s molten salt reactor design could run on either spent nuclear waste (for countries like the U.S. that have a lot of it) or fresh fuel enriched to lower, cheaper, and safer levels of uranium compared to traditional reactors.

“We have a type of nuclear reactor that environmentalists can really get behind,” says CEO Leslie Dewan, a 30-year-old graduate of MIT’s nuclear engineering PhD program and co-founder of the company.

Molten salt reactors aren’t new; designs for them have been around since the 1950s. They have advantages over the light water reactors in use today because they can be operated at normal pressures and shutdown safely even during a power failure. However, previous designs have required very highly enriched uranium to operate. Transatomic’s new design would require much lower-level uranium enrichment or could simply operate on radioactive waste. The reactor core would also be smaller and able to burn up to 96% of the energy from the fuel over long periods of time–a far higher efficiency than reactors today.

[roamer_1]

The waste is much less that you might think and fairly handleable now.

Chernobyl, anyone?
Japan?

Nuclear is fine, till it ain't - And then it's a disaster. For decades.

A dam breaks, that sucks... But you are rebuilding in months, no aftereffects to the land at all...

That is the kind of comparison I am drawing.