It's No Longer about Equality

[dfwgator]

Then you missed my point. American blacks are definitely better off because their ancestors were slaves.
The idea that out of something evil, something good can come is hard to grasp for many people. Nevertheless, American blacks are far better off than their kinfolk in Africa.  That there are not many American blacks moving back to Africa should tell you something. Far more African blacks move to America to escape Africa.

That's why I wonder what the reaction would be if we were told we could retroactively eliminate one thing from our history.  If I said that I wanted slavery to have never existed in this country, how would blacks take it, when they realize as a result they wouldn't even be here.

[Sanguine]

That's why I wonder what the reaction would be if we were told we could retroactively eliminate one thing from our history.  If I said that I wanted slavery to have never existed in this country, how would blacks take it, when they realize as a result they wouldn't even be here.

Of course many of them would be here.  They would have immigrated voluntarily, just like many do now. 

[dfwgator]

Of course many of them would be here.  They would have immigrated voluntarily, just like many do now.

They might consist of 2% of the population at the most, had we never had slavery.

[Sanguine]

They might consist of 2% of the population at the most, had we never had slavery.

OK.

[240B]

Tribal wars in Africa resulted in many captives. These captives (before the White Man) would usually be sacrificed/executed or would become slaves of the conquering tribe. Had they not been sold off as slaves to Whites, Arabs, Asians, and others who were willing to buy them, most if not all of them would have died.

Foreigners did not run through the dangerous jungles of Africa looking for slaves. They wouldn't know how to do that. They had no knowledge of Africa and would have died in a day trying. Rather they purchased the slaves from the tribal chiefs who had already captured slaves for himself, but was willing to trade them for goods with the foreigners.

[goatprairie]

Tribal wars in Africa resulted in many captives. These captives (before the White Man) would usually be sacrificed/executed or would become slaves of the conquering tribe. Had they not been sold off as slaves to Whites, Arabs, Asians, and others who were willing to buy them, most if not all of them would have died.

Foreigners did not run through the dangerous jungles of Africa looking for slaves. They wouldn't know how to do that. They had no knowledge of Africa and would have died in a day trying. Rather they purchased the slaves from the tribal chiefs who had already captured slaves for himself, but was willing to trade them for goods with the foreigners.

One of the worst lies about the tv series "Roots" were the opening scenes showing white slavers capturing innocent blacks in inner Africa instead of purchasing them from black tribal chiefs on the coasts.
Today many American blacks are under the illusion that no blacks were involved with their ancestors beings captured and sold as slaves. It was all Evil Whitey. 
But without the abetting of black chieftains, it's doubtful there could ever have much of a slave trade with African blacks as the victims. Africa was simply too hostile a land for white people to traverse due to severe problems with hostile natives,  geography, and disease.

[fayec]

Huh, Daniel made a prediction about black Americans in America fighting for de facto equality?  Pretty amazing.

 The Biblical prophets; Daniel, John the Revelator, and Jesus himself foretold/prophecied about certain events that would take place on earth during the latter years...Events which would serve as the sign for Christ's second coming.
With that in mind, please give us your best reason for believing those prophecies are NOT about the rise and fall of the greatest and mightiest Christian nation on the planet (Ameirica)?, and NOT about America's exaltation of the Black man?

Oh, and I dunno about you, but my family hasn't been "European" for hundreds of years.

And the reason being that of White/Black interracial marriage, and the fact that many Whites are breeding their race out of existence. This also was foretold in the scriptures.

[Sanguine]

I find it an odious defense of slavery the argument that "American blacks are better off now because they were enslaved and brought over here".  The sort of argument that makes "conservatives" look like evil troglodytes.

[Sanguine]

 The Biblical prophets; Daniel, John the Revelator, and Jesus himself foretold/prophecied about certain events that would take place on earth during the latter years...Events which would serve as the sign for Christ's second coming.
With that in mind, please give us your best reason for believing those prophecies are NOT about the rise and fall of the greatest and mightiest Christian nation on the planet (Ameirica)?, and NOT about America's exaltation of the Black man?

This is not the forum for this kind of discussion. 

And the reason being that of White/Black interracial marriage, and the fact that many Whites are breeding their race out of existence. This also was foretold in the scriptures.

What the hell are you talking about?  My family would not be American if they've interbred with other humans?  Hopefully, I'm completely misunderstanding what you are saying.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I find it an odious defense of slavery the argument that "American blacks are better off because they were enslaved and brought over here".  The sort of argument that makes "conservatives" look like evil troglodytes.

I do not think that is the message at all.    Perhaps the descendants of blacks brought over here are better off here vs the descendants of those remaining in Africa.

I am unsure if people can make the argument that anyone made a slave is better off, ever.

[goatprairie]

I do not think that is the message at all.    Perhaps the descendants of blacks brought over here are better off here vs the descendants of those remaining in Africa.

I am unsure if people can make the argument that anyone made a slave is better off, ever.

No, the slaves weren't better off, but their descendants were. That is a fact that is hard for people to accept...but it is true.
Going back several thousand years there's a good chance some of my Slavic ancestors in southern Europe were conquered and  enslaved by the Romans.  But  along with their armies and subjugation, the Romans also brought Roman civilization with them.
 It's like the scene in Monty Python's  "The Life Of Brian" where John Cleese asks what the Romans have ever done for the Jews. He is quickly informed about all the things the Romans brought with them when they conquered Judea.
Nobody is saying slavery wasn't anything but evil.  But it is true that because their ancestors were treated awful, many people now live good lives. That includes American blacks.  Or why don't you ask Oprah Winfrey or some of the other growing numbers of black billionaires whether they'd like to go back to Africa. Or as Muhammad Ali said after fighting George Foreman in Africa, "thank God my great granddaddy got on that boat."

[Sanguine]

 

I do not think that is the message at all.    Perhaps the descendants of blacks brought over here are better off here vs the descendants of those remaining in Africa.

I am unsure if people can make the argument that anyone made a slave is better off, ever.

[Sanguine]

No, the slaves weren't better off, but their descendants were. That is a fact that is hard for people to accept...but it is true.
Going back several thousand years there's a good chance some of my Slavic ancestors in southern Europe were conquered and  enslaved by the Romans.  But  along with their armies and subjugation, the Romans also brought Roman civilization with them.
 It's like the scene in Monty Python's  "The Life Of Brian" where John Cleese asks what the Romans have ever done for the Jews. He is quickly informed about all the things the Romans brought with them when they conquered Judea.
Nobody is saying slavery wasn't anything but evil.  But it is true that because their ancestors were treated awful, many people now live good lives. That includes American blacks.  Or why don't you ask Oprah Winfrey or some of the other growing numbers of black billionaires whether they'd like to go back to Africa. Or as Muhammad Ali said after fighting George Foreman in Africa, "thank God my great granddaddy got on that boat."

Why would that be hard for people to accept?  What is true is that whether they are or not can never justify people being made slaves.  That is the problem with this argument, and by linking the "better now" with "enslaved" you make that argument.

[Bill Cipher]

Why would that be hard for people to accept?  What is true is that whether they are or not can never justify people being made slaves.  That is the problem with this argument, and by linking the "better now" with "enslaved" you make that argument.

Could not agree more.  Very well said.

[The_Reader_David]

Tribal wars in Africa resulted in many captives. These captives (before the White Man) would usually be sacrificed/executed or would become slaves of the conquering tribe. Had they not been sold off as slaves to Whites, Arabs, Asians, and others who were willing to buy them, most if not all of them would have died.

Foreigners did not run through the dangerous jungles of Africa looking for slaves. They wouldn't know how to do that. They had no knowledge of Africa and would have died in a day trying. Rather they purchased the slaves from the tribal chiefs who had already captured slaves for himself, but was willing to trade them for goods with the foreigners.

By and large you are correct.  The one exception being that the Portuguese, with Papal blessing, did undertake slave raids on the coasts of Africa.  They were really the worst of the European powers not only because of that, but because their colony in Brazil was the main recipient of enslaved Africans in the New World -- 40% of slaves transported across the Atlantic ended up in Brazil, compared with 0.3% ending up in the 13 original colonies and later states, the rest ending up in various and sundry other parts of the New World. 

That is if one doesn't consider the Ottoman Empire as a European power.  The slave trade from sub-Saharan Africa to the Ottoman Empire (which included North Africa, the Levant, Asia Minor and the Balkans) dwarfed the Atlantic slave trade both in scale and brutality -- male slaves bound for the Ottoman Empire were often castrated, there being more demand for eunuchs as house slaves than for agricultural slaves, and those who weren't usually were used in mining with conditions (and life expectancies) far worse that for agricultural slaves in either the antebellum South or Brazil.

[goatprairie]

Why would that be hard for people to accept?  What is true is that whether they are or not can never justify people being made slaves.  That is the problem with this argument, and by linking the "better now" with "enslaved" you make that argument.

I'm  not justifying slavery. I am just saying out of evil happening to some people, many times other people live better lives.
The bad things that happened to many people in Europe caused some of their countrymen to leave and settle elsewhere. Many times they left devastated lands for America. Basically, those are the people who created America. If their lives were great in the old country, they would have never left. But they did, and they all helped create America.
Why is that difficult to understand? 
Over the millennia just about every human development on earth was invaded/conquered by somebody else. It was obviously bad for the people conquered/killed/enslaved.
But  the mixture of the conquerors with the conquered created whole societies. Many times those new societies created better lives for the descendants of the conquered/killed/enslaved.

[sneakypete]

Nope.  You missed my point.

@Sanguine

Your point seems to be you like taking blame and suffering for things you didn't do.

Unless,of course,you have enslaved someone?

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

Your point seems to be you like taking blame and suffering for things you didn't do.

Unless,of course,you have enslaved someone?

Wow.  Uh, OK, sure, Pete.  That's it.

[sneakypete]

Wow.  Uh, OK, sure, Pete.  That's it.

@Sanguine

OK,so correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

OK,so correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll play.  You tell me exactly what I said that led you to the conclusion you reached, and I will tell you what I actually said.

[sneakypete]

I'll play.  You tell me exactly what I said that led you to the conclusion you reached, and I will tell you what I actually said.

@Sanguine

You seem to be consumed with guilt over slavery,and enjoy gnashing your teeth and pulling your hair out in grief.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

You seem to be consumed with guilt over slavery,and enjoy gnashing your teeth and pulling your hair out in grief.

Not working, Pete.  You are the one with the questions - tell me what you misunderstood and I'm happy to explain it to you. 

[sneakypete]

Not working, Pete.  You are the one with the questions - tell me what you misunderstood and I'm happy to explain it to you.

@Sanguine

I don't think I misunderstood anything,and since you were the one that wrote what you wrote,the burden of clearing up any misunderstandings lies on you.

[Cyber Liberty]

Not working, Pete.  You are the one with the questions - tell me what you misunderstood and I'm happy to explain it to you.

Not a fan of shadowboxing, eh?

[Sanguine]

Not a fan of shadowboxing, eh?