Author Topic: President Trump's Rumored Potential Border Wall Deal Sounds Like Disastrous 1986 Immigration Comprom  (Read 21254 times)

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Offline txradioguy

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Here's a quote from Wikipedia about Plenary Power.  It's not quite as simple as @txradioguy @libertybele want it to be and it depends a lot on the judiciary.

"In regard to immigration law, Congress, under the Plenary Power Doctrine, has the power to make immigration policy subject to judicial oversight. The Executive Branch is charged with enforcing the immigration laws passed by Congress. The doctrine is based on the concept that immigration is a question of national sovereignty, relating to a nation's right to define its own borders. Courts generally refrain from interfering in immigration matters.[4] Historically, the U.S. Supreme Court has taken a hands-off approach when asked to review the political branches' immigration decisions and policy-making. The Center for Immigration Studies, an organization with a slant toward isolationism, suggests there is a movement to "erode" political-branch control over immigration in favor of a judge-administered system and that the results have created national security concerns.[4] The U.S. Supreme Court case Zadvydas v. Davis is cited as an example of the U.S. Supreme Court not following plenary power precedent.[4][5]"

I took the part about Plenary power and how it applies to the immigration issue straight from what you just posted.  I even just bolded...the relevant part to this discussion for you.

Congress has already passed the law.  There are national security implications to enforcing what the Congress...including the Dems against it now...passed 12 years ago.

The Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Pub.L. 109–367) is already singed public law.  Divert money from Liberal pork projects to pay for the wall and get it done.

I guess understanding the simplicity of what Trump is authorized to do really is too hard for you to grasp.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline edpc

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Could have come to a full stop at "judicial oversight".  Plenary power rests with the courts and not with either the Congress or the Executive.

How's that working for us?   :smokin:


Considering that federal bench and SCOTUS appointments have been cited as a key accomplishment, under this administration, why should that be a concern?
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline txradioguy

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Considering that federal bench and SCOTUS appointments have been cited as a key accomplishment, under this administration, why should that be a concern?

 :2popcorn:
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline jpsb

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Look.  Trump cannot get the support for border control right now without offering something.

He offered a 3 year extension of DACA.

We already have DACA so what do we have to lose if this gets this bill passed,  and gets a start to border security.

If people remain intractable about giving anything, even something as harmless as a relatively short extension to an existing program, how can we expect anything but a stalemate?

I wish we had a magic wand, but I don't see one.  You and your little buddy offer nothing constructive but enjoy venting and whining.

@libertybele @Chosen Daughter

 :thumbsup:

Offline jpsb

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Here's something constructive.  Stop releasing illegals waiting for hearings.  Start handing out prison sentences to repeat offenders.  And above all else, STOP GIVING OUT FREE SHIT TO ILLEGALS!

Trump is in a position to do all three.

No his is not. The courts have ruled it illegal on two of your three. Care to try again @Hoodat?

Offline edpc

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No his is not. The courts have ruled it illegal on two of your three. Care to try again @Hoodat?


Really? Which two?
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline jpsb

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I think you may be a tiny bit naive to believe Trump can do these things without Congress.  He certainly can't pass laws or bills without congressional support.

Do you actually think that Trump does not know about Plenary Power?

@txradioguy @Emjay

Trump does not have the resources to "simply enforce the laws". There are only so many beds and to
incarcerate more illegals then there are places to keep them has been ruled illegal by the courts.

Trump needs CONGRESS to get the resources he needs to "simply enforce the laws".

But you already knew that /s

Online libertybele

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I took the part about Plenary power and how it applies to the immigration issue straight from what you just posted.  I even just bolded...the relevant part to this discussion for you.

Congress has already passed the law.  There are national security implications to enforcing what the Congress...including the Dems against it now...passed 12 years ago.

The Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Pub.L. 109–367) is already singed public law.  Divert money from Liberal pork projects to pay for the wall and get it done.

I guess understanding the simplicity of what Trump is authorized to do really is too hard for you to grasp.

In addition, Trump waited till the last minute to create a media circus on this issue just days before the new Congress was to be sworn in.  Why? 
I Believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign nation of many sovereign states; a perfect union one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.  I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws to respect its flag; and to defend it against all enemies.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Considering that federal bench and SCOTUS appointments have been cited as a key accomplishment, under this administration, why should that be a concern?

Because all it takes is one court to put a stop to what the President does.  And if memory serves, plenty of Obama judges are still breathing.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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In addition, Trump waited till the last minute to create a media circus on this issue just days before the new Congress was to be sworn in.  Why?

You're really reaching now, sweetie.   :laugh:

Offline txradioguy

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In addition, Trump waited till the last minute to create a media circus on this issue just days before the new Congress was to be sworn in.  Why?

Good question.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Online Hoodat

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No his is not. The courts have ruled it illegal on two of your three. Care to try again @Hoodat?

Really? Which two?

I would like an answer to that too, @jpsb .  Seriously.  Action is being proposed which the President has complete Constitutional authority to act upon, yet instead of leading the charge for action, you make excuses for why Trump can't act.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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My morning dose of NPR cleared it up for me.

Ah, so you've now heard the DNC talking points.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline edpc

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Because all it takes is one court to put a stop to what the President does.  And if memory serves, plenty of Obama judges are still breathing.


That’s a ridiculous reason not to use executive power, especially when you’ve claimed credit for reshaping the courts and have the opposition in panic over it.

“It is a bitter pill to swallow so soon after the Kavanaugh fight that so many progressive activists poured their hearts and souls into. This period will be long remembered not just for the historic number of judges Trump has been able to confirm, but also because of how passive Democrats were in response,” said Demand Justice chief counsel Chris Kang. “The progressive grass-roots have awoken to the crisis of Trump’s takeover of the courts, and are not going to tolerate this kind of weakness for much longer.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/11/senate-democrats-judges-895168

Besides, ‘judicial oversight’ isn’t a pejorative. It’s one of the checks and balances put into place by the framers. It’s judicial activism that’s the problem. That’s why the appeals and supreme courts are important. We’ve already seen SCOTUS uphold previous executive authority on immigration and national security issues with the travel ban decision.
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline jpsb

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Good question.

Because the globalist traitor Paul Ryan was speaker and Paul Ryan waited until the last days to pass
funding for the wall. That's why.

Offline GrouchoTex

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It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?

If you leave the incentive to cheat with no consequences when they get caught later people will continue to cheat in large numbers.

It is a moral hazard that rewards illegal behavior.

If the parents steal a great sum of money and give it to their children and the children become accustom to living with this great sum of money you're essentially saying the money can't be taken back later, money that wasn't theirs to begin with, when the parents are caught for what they did earlier.

Crime causes injury to innocence that can't be fixed. It is the nature of crime and why we have laws to try to prevent it. The parent's crime is causing injury to their children. Crime has victims. If you unknowingly buy stolen property you still have to return it when it is discovered that it was stolen and you become a victim too of getting cheated. In this case it is stolen citizenship and allowing them to keep their ill gotten gains.

Only if you stop rewarding people who cheat including those who benefited from it will you actually stop inviting people to get into this situation in the first place. If the consequences are devastating to their children they'll think twice about trying to cheat for their benefit.

The primary moral issue here is the people who setup a system that rewards people for breaking our laws. It encourages people to do the wrong thing making a mockery of our laws. Just like Obama and his train loads of unaccompanied minors. Obama signaled that we would allow them in bypassing immigration law and everyone else who was standing in line going about it legally. And so they came in great numbers completely circumventing our laws spreading disease and crime.

The only just answer is to stand up for our laws and sovereignty and not encourage people to do the opposite.

 :amen:

Offline XenaLee

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Because the globalist traitor Paul Ryan was speaker and Paul Ryan waited until the last days to pass
funding for the wall.
That's why.

Because Paul Ryan was counting on the radical left to take over the House... which would, of course, equate to either no border wall funding, or an amnesty deal to get funding.
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline jpsb

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It is unjust - but who caused the injustice?

Everything you say is true,

But

Punishment must fit the crime. Deporting a child that grew up here to a county they don't know could
seem to many as cruel and unusual. DACA people need to be dealt with in a humane way on a case by
case bases. How old were they when they entered USA? How old are they now? Are they gang members?
Criminals? In military? College educated? Etc.

Offline Emjay

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I took the part about Plenary power and how it applies to the immigration issue straight from what you just posted.  I even just bolded...the relevant part to this discussion for you.

Congress has already passed the law.  There are national security implications to enforcing what the Congress...including the Dems against it now...passed 12 years ago.

The Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Pub.L. 109–367) is already singed public law.  Divert money from Liberal pork projects to pay for the wall and get it done.

I guess understanding the simplicity of what Trump is authorized to do really is too hard for you to grasp.

What's difficult for you to grasp is that the judiciary is involved in any enactment of this law.

Get off your high horse and face reality.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Emjay

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Ah, so you've now heard the DNC talking points.

Exactly @Hoodat   That's why I listen to them 5 minutes a day while I'm getting dressed.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Emjay

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:thumbsup:

Thanks for the thumbs up @jpsb and thanks for being one of the voices of reason on this board.

Too many vultures are circling over Trump while conveniently forgetting that he is the only President in the last two decades to really care about border security and to push legislation to get it.

Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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That’s a ridiculous reason not to use executive power,

Sorry @edpc  but based on your posting history I cannot take your angst over the President not using executive powers seriously.  Because if he did use them, the winning bet is you'd be the first to call him a dictator.


Offline edpc

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Sorry @edpc  but based on your posting history I cannot take your angst over the President not using executive powers seriously.  Because if he did use them, the winning bet is you'd be the first to call him a dictator.



Would that be anything similar to you calling the DACA for wall deal @Jazzhead proposed last week his ‘personal liberal agenda’ that you now seem to suddenly like, just because Trump said it a few days later?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 08:08:38 pm by edpc »
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Online Hoodat

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Sorry @edpc  but based on your posting history I cannot take your angst over the President not using executive powers seriously.  Because if he did use them, the winning bet is you'd be the first to call him a dictator.

Are you seriously suggesting that the reason Trump won't prosecute serial deportees (a felony subject to two years in prison) is because @edpc would call him a 'dictator'?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Emjay

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Sorry @edpc  but based on your posting history I cannot take your angst over the President not using executive powers seriously.  Because if he did use them, the winning bet is you'd be the first to call him a dictator.

So true @Right_in_Virginia  but more voices here that are ordinarily saner are basically calling for measures that they deem simple, but which are anything but.

Some say it's a piece of cake to use the military, totally forgetting about the  Posse Comitatus Act , which has been abused in the past with disastrous consequences.

And some are thinking that using the Plenary Act is without risks when it is full of judicial pitfalls and risks.


Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.