This Is What Life Without Retirement Savings Looks Like

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2018/02/pensions-safety-net-california/553970/

CORONA, Calif.—Roberta Gordon never thought she’d still be alive at age 76. She definitely didn’t think she’d still be working. But every Saturday, she goes down to the local grocery store and hands out samples, earning $50 a day, because she needs the money.

“I’m a working woman again,” she told me, in the common room of the senior apartment complex where she now lives, here in California’s Inland Empire. Gordon has worked dozens of odd jobs throughout her life—as a house cleaner, a home health aide, a telemarketer, a librarian, a fundraiser—but at many times in her life, she didn’t have a steady job that paid into Social Security. She didn’t receive a pension. And she definitely wasn’t making enough to put aside money for retirement.

[Wingnut]

"And she definitely wasn’t making enough to put aside money for retirement."

Bullshit.  She could have but didn't.  No discipline.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I have no sympathy for any who do not save for retirement.

Nobody said it would ever be easy to do, but it certainly can be done by us all if able-bodied.

[RoosGirl]

Maybe if she had held down a steady job doing one or maybe even two different things for a decent amount of time...

[Sanguine]

Maybe if she had held down a steady job doing one or maybe even two different things for a decent amount of time...

No, no.  You're supposed to follow your dreams and all that crap.

[LMAO]

Bullshit.  She could have but didn't.  No discipline.

You know this how?

[Hoodat]

Roberta Gordon never thought she’d still be alive at age 76. She definitely didn’t think she’d still be working. But every Saturday, she goes down to the local grocery store and hands out samples, earning $50 a day, because she needs the money.

“I’m a working woman again,” she told me, in the common room of the senior apartment complex where she now lives, here in California’s Inland Empire. Gordon has worked dozens of odd jobs throughout her life—as a house cleaner, a home health aide, a telemarketer, a librarian, a fundraiser—but at many times in her life, she didn’t have a steady job that paid into Social Security. She didn’t receive a pension. And she definitely wasn’t making enough to put aside money for retirement.

If Roberta hadn't been forced to turn over 12.4% of her income to the government ponzi scheme at the point of a gun, she would have been able to invest it for herself and retire a millionaire.  And thanks to the Democrats, she now gets to pay income tax on her social security benefits.

[sneakypete]

"And she definitely wasn’t making enough to put aside money for retirement."

Bullshit.  She could have but didn't.  No discipline.

@The Ghost

Bullshit,yourself. You know nothing about her life or lives of her immediate family members,their health issues,their weekly living expenses,etc,etc,etc.

My father went to work in a shipyard after quitting school in the 3rd grade to help support  his family after his father died. He worked his whole life and AFAIK,only missed work one week after falling off a roof. I watched him sit it a empty bathtub one Sunday morning when I was 6 years old and pull 4 of his own abscessed teeth with a pair of waterpump pliers and a nutpick because he had to go to work on Monday morning,and couldn't afford to go to a dentist.

He ended up doing ok,but not great,while living a life only two paychecks away from disaster.

Many,many people live or lived similar lives.

[sneakypete]

If Roberta hadn't been forced to turn over 12.4% of her income to the government ponzi scheme at the point of a gun, she would have been able to invest it for herself and retire a millionaire. 

@Hoodat

HorseHillary! I have listened to ignorant middle-class or upper-class people regurgitate that nonsense all my life. She would have spent that money to make her life a little more pleasant.

You HAVE to be a fool to think that someone earning 100 bucks a week is going to invest all 12 additional dollars each week that brings them and turn it into a middle-class lifestyle.

[LMAO]

It seems conservatives are as simplistic in their thinking as progressives

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat

HorseHillary! I have listened to ignorant middle-class or upper-class people regurgitate that nonsense all my life. She would have spent that money to make her life a little more pleasant.

You HAVE to be a fool to think that someone earning 100 bucks a week is going to invest all 12 additional dollars each week that brings them and turn it into a middle-class lifestyle.

A person saving $12.40 a week from age 20 to age 65 at 7% would have over $200,000 when they retire.  However, no one working full time makes only $100/wk.  At minimum wage, 12.4% of income would yield $600,000 at retirement.  But it would really be a stretch to imagine a person earning minimum wage their entire working life, much less the ridiculous $100 scenario of yours.

Math is your friend.

[LMAO]

A person saving $12.40 a week from age 20 to age 65 at 7% would have over $200,000 when they retire.  However, no one working full time makes only $100/wk.  At minimum wage, 12.4% of income would yield $600,000 at retirement.  But it would really be a stretch to imagine a person earning minimum wage their entire working life, much less the ridiculous $100 scenario of yours.

Math is your friend.

Of course, if you’re a single mother trying to raise and feed your kids you can throw all that out the window. I once worked with a nurse who had 5 kids and her husband was killed by a drunk driver while the kids were young. She ended up working up until declining health forced her to retire. Go ahead and spell out your savings idea to someone in that situation.

I'm a realist. Both SS and Medicare are going to need serious reform as the lopsided demographics make sustaining either program in it's present form impossible. And, as a realist, I understand the sometimes cruel dynamics of life. These issues are more complicated than "she should have saved."

[Hoodat]

Of course, if your a single mother trying to raise and feed your kids you can throw all that out the window. I once worked with a nurse who had 5 kids and her husband was killed by a drunk driver while the kids were young. She ended up working up until declining health forced her to retire. Go ahead and spell out your savings idea to someone in that situation.

No problem.  How much did she earn per week, and how long did she work?

I'm a realist. Both SS and Medicare are going to need serious reform as the lopsided demographics make sustaining either program in it's present form impossible. And, as a realist, I understand the sometimes cruel dynamics of life. These issues are more complicated than "she should have saved."

First of all, see zero point in 'saving Social Security'.  A reformed ponzi scheme is still a ponzi scheme.  Secondly, no one said "she should have saved."  Because no one gets to 'save' the 12.4% that government takes away at the point of a gun.

[Wingnut]

The miracle of compound interest could have been the retched souls friend.  But a life time of her poor choices should make me weep for her.  I think not.

[Restored]

My sister is the same way. She works just to make payments. I pay $30 a month for a cell phone and she pays $200.

[LMAO]

The miracle of compound interest could have been the retched souls friend.  But a life time of her poor choices should make me weep for her.  I think not.

Yup

Poor choices like raising a family and feeding her kids

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

@The Ghost

Bullshit,yourself. You know nothing about her life or lives of her immediate family members,their health issues,their weekly living expenses,etc,etc,etc.

My father went to work in a shipyard after quitting school in the 3rd grade to help support  his family after his father died. He worked his whole life and AFAIK,only missed work one week after falling off a roof. I watched him sit it a empty bathtub one Sunday morning when I was 6 years old and pull 4 of his own abscessed teeth with a pair of waterpump pliers and a nutpick because he had to go to work on Monday morning,and couldn't afford to go to a dentist.

He ended up doing ok,but not great,while living a life only two paychecks away from disaster.

Many,many people live or lived similar lives.

Thank you for sharing sp, and I say that in earnest. What you say is true but what the ghost says is true as well. Some people are poor due to bad decisions and some are poor due to bad behavior and some are poor due to circumstances beyond their own control. Can't we just accept that as the truth?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Of course, if you’re a single mother trying to raise and feed your kids you can throw all that out the window. I once worked with a nurse who had 5 kids and her husband was killed by a drunk driver while the kids were young. She ended up working up until declining health forced her to retire. Go ahead and spell out your savings idea to someone in that situation.

I'm a realist. Both SS and Medicare are going to need serious reform as the lopsided demographics make sustaining either program in it's present form impossible. And, as a realist, I understand the sometimes cruel dynamics of life. These issues are more complicated than "she should have saved."

What will be the future for the million of boomers who haven't saved? Will America let them starve on the street? The media will air countless pity stories... I foresee massive inflation in our future...

[sneakypete]

A person saving $12.40 a week from age 20 to age 65 at 7% would have over $200,000 when they retire.  However, no one working full time makes only $100/wk.  At minimum wage, 12.4% of income would yield $600,000 at retirement.  But it would really be a stretch to imagine a person earning minimum wage their entire working life, much less the ridiculous $100 scenario of yours.

Math is your friend.

@Hoodat

I know math is my friend. I don't think it is yours,though. There were damn few women earning 100 bucks a week in the 50's and 60's when that woman was working. My father was a 1st class framing and trim carpenter,and I was sent to the store every Friday night to cash his check for him,and the biggest paycheck he ever received in his entire working life was right at 130 bucks for a weeks work with overtime. Granted,housing and other living expenses were MUCH lower back then,but I doubt the typical woman worker brought home 75 bucks a week.

In other words,there is no way in HELL they are going to save an additional 12 bucks a week for 20 or 30 years. Most likely she would do something like put it in a Christmas Club savings account so she would have the "extra" money to buy presents for her family at Christmas.

The ONLY people who save money on a regular basis are the people who take home more than they need to spend,week in and week out. For example,if my father had been bringing home 200 a week at the time when a typical working-class family could get by fairly comfortably on 100 bucks a week,there is no doubt he would have saved money. Remember,he grew up scrambling to get the money to feed himself and his younger brothers and sisters every week,so he knew what kind of desperation being broke brings.

In FACT,he did manage to save money. Being a working young adult during the Depression and remembering the closed banks with missing deposits,he didn't trust banks,but he did manage to hide money in the house that he would use to buy a new car every 5 or 6 years as he needed one. He always paid cash because having payments scared the hell out of him.

Not a chance  in hell he was ever going to pull 12 bucks a week out of his paycheck to save for a future he might never live to see,though.

And he did live long enough to start drawing Social Security checks when he turned 62 and it was too hard for him to keep a job anymore. Without forced "Savings" through SS,he would have been screwed in his old age.

[sneakypete]

No problem.  How much did she earn per week, and how long did she work?


First of all, see zero point in 'saving Social Security'.  A reformed ponzi scheme is still a ponzi scheme.  Secondly, no one said "she should have saved."  Because no one gets to 'save' the 12.4% that government takes away at the point of a gun.

@Hoodat

Grew up in a middle-class home with at least one white collar professional as a parent,didn't you?

If not,you are just delusional and are confusing theory and fact.

[ConstitutionRose]

Mark for later.

[sneakypete]

Thank you for sharing sp, and I say that in earnest. What you say is true but what the ghost says is true as well. Some people are poor due to bad decisions and some are poor due to bad behavior and some are poor due to circumstances beyond their own control. Can't we just accept that as the truth?

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Yes,but what *I* can't accept is a "One size fits all" economic plan. People pulling in a 6 figure annual salary today are obviously in a better position to establish a retirement account than the MUCH larger segment of the population that gets by on "survival wages".

And since there are and always be more people at the bottom of the economic ladder than at the top,the wealthy MUST contribute lo the social security system that provides an income for the working class poor.

If the wealthy are unlucky enough they lose their position due to accident,bad choices,law suits,being hooked to a dying industry,etc,etc,etc,they too will have money coming in when they are too old,too sick,or too crippled to work and provide for themselves. Even if they don't,they can still draw SS. At least one of the Rockefellers  was drawing SS back in the 60's.

[mountaineer]

I know a woman (met her through TOS, where she still posts) who is in a very similar situation to the woman in the article, i.e., having to go back to work in her late 60s or so just to keep a roof over her head.

It's hard to think about planning for retirement when you're young, beginning a family, etc., but it's absolutely essential. I've always been very frugal, and started saving and investing shortly after starting my career. Thankfully,  my parents then were inspired to contact my broker and start their own investment portfolio when they were in their 50s, because it enabled my mother to live comfortably after my father died.

[Gefn]

I guess I’m blessed my grandparents survived the Great Depression because I was brought up from four years old that every dollar I earned half went to savings and half was to be used. My allowednce? Half went into my savings and half I could spend or put into my piggy bank for a purchase like a Barbie or a record or what ever I wanted.


I’ve had to make a lot of sacrifices though with money I’m sure a lot of people wouldn’t want to make. But that’s just me.

[Restored]

I personally don't know anyone who is in financial trouble because they made wise financial decisions. Everyone I know that is going into retirement without savings suffers from the weight of their own decisions. I have a cousin who claims she lost her savings due to cancer but she actually cashed in her 401k to open a tanning salon. My brother refuses to file taxes. My aunt retired the minute she could because they wouldn't let her smoke at her desk and she has outlived her pension. I know a large number of people who lost their savings to get on The Disability. Now they complain it isn't enough to live on.
My sister swears it is impossible to have a car without a payment. There is just no way to do it.

[ConstitutionRose]

I personally don't know anyone who is in financial trouble because they made wise financial decisions. Everyone I know that is going into retirement without savings suffers from the weight of their own decisions. I have a cousin who claims she lost her savings due to cancer but she actually cashed in her 401k to open a tanning salon. My brother refuses to file taxes. My aunt retired the minute she could because they wouldn't let her smoke at her desk and she has outlived her pension. I know a large number of people who lost their savings to get on The Disability. Now they complain it isn't enough to live on.
My sister swears it is impossible to have a car without a payment. There is just no way to do it.

The Disability.  I hear that language used when visiting in Kingsport.  In my opinion The Disability has caused more damage to that part of the state than any other single factor.

[mountaineer]

I guess I’m blessed my grandparents survived the Great Depression because I was brought up from four years old that every dollar I earned half went to savings and half was to be used.

I'm sure my mother's tales of what it was like to grow up during the Great Depression are what made me so frugal.

[mountaineer]

The Disability.  I hear that language used when visiting in Kingsport.  In my opinion The Disability has caused more damage to that part of the state than any other single factor.

Yeah, when you can get "Disability" for everything from obesity to drug addiction, it's no wonder so many people in my impoverished state are on it.

[Sanguine]

Thank you for sharing sp, and I say that in earnest. What you say is true but what the ghost says is true as well. Some people are poor due to bad decisions and some are poor due to bad behavior and some are poor due to circumstances beyond their own control. Can't we just accept that as the truth?

Because that's not what @The Ghost said.  He said it was her fault.  He didn't allow for any other options.

[mirraflake]

Some people try to save but have bad luck ther entire lives through no fault of their own.  Major illness in family, long term job layoffs etc.

We have 40% of the population making meager wages who just get by every week.  No education and no ambition to improve themselves.

[Victoria33]

@The Ghost  Bullshit,yourself. You know nothing about her life or lives of her immediate family members,their health issues,their weekly living expenses,etc,etc,etc. I watched him sit it a empty bathtub one Sunday morning when I was 6 years old and pull 4 of his own abscessed teeth with a pair of waterpump pliers and a nutpick because he had to go to work on Monday morning,and couldn't afford to go to a dentist. He ended up doing ok,but not great,while living a life only two paychecks away from disaster.  Many,many people live or lived similar lives.

@The Ghost
@mystery-ak
@Freya

Thanks for your post about your father.  In my earlier life, I was a school teacher, fifth grade teacher.  My son, Wayne, was four years old and I had an older black lady, her name was Essie, stay with him during the day. I paid into social security for her so she would have some income when she couldn't work anymore.  I wanted to take care of her needs.

Two stories about Essie, first one: One day the principal of the school told me I had a phone call.  Went to office to take the call; Essie couldn't find Wayne.  He had been in the backyard playing and wasn't there anymore.  She said she would keep looking.  I was preparing to leave the school and hunt for him.  Got another call:  Wayne had gone into the garage and climbed up a ladder so he was not in her sight.  When she went into the garage, Wayne said, "Look up here, Essie".  I gave him a stern talking to not to hide from Essie again.

Other story: I went to get Essie every morning.  I took her home when I got home from school.  Essie was of a generation when blacks were not considered equal to whites.  I could not get her to ride in the front seat with me no matter how many times I asked her.  She insisted she was riding in the back seat and she did. 

My son and I talked about Essie when he was here for Christmas this year. Both of us never forgot Essie being a part of our family.

[mountaineer]

Some people try to save but have bad luck ther entire lives through no fault of their own.  Major illness in family, long term job layoffs etc.

That's true. Some folks, due to circumstances - family, health, local economy - beyond their control, simply can't create a nest egg. The rest of us can and should help them however we can.

Then we see people who show up at the Salvation Army for free food and Christmas presents, or at the grocery store to spend their SNAP benefits wearing gold jewelry and toting $1,000 iPhones.  (Witnessed in my town).

[Restored]

Some people try to save but have bad luck ther entire lives through no fault of their own.  Major illness in family, long term job layoffs etc.
We have 40% of the population making meager wages who just get by every week.  No education and no ambition to improve themselves.

I knew too many people who responded to getting "laid off" by not working so they could get unemployment (free money). Since unemployment wasn't enough, they had to go into their savings. If they had just gotten another job, they would have fared better. But the government was paying them to hunt and fish.
When someone tells me they can't save money, I ask to see their budget. Then we just laugh and laugh.

[mountaineer]

Whenever some new development deal is announced in our area, the comments on social media are telling. Half of the posters complain because it doesn't include a ____ (Target, Olive Garden, whatever their preferred establishment may be) and the other half complain that it will bring only minimum wage jobs, and minimum wage (or even $10 per hour) is no better than no job at all. 

[jmyrlefuller]

A person saving $12.40 a week from age 20 to age 65 at 7% would have over $200,000 when they retire.

At 7%? In what dreamland does any working-class person have access to the Wall Street brokers that could get them that kind of rate of return?

Most are lucky to have access to a 2% savings account or CD.

[bigheadfred]

I had to use my retirement money to do a complete restart in 2002. I accumulated some more with the job I had from 2002-2010. Then he shut down because of the economy. I was out of work for six months on unemployment. The job I have now started me off at 2/3 wage of my other one. I was putting some money into retirement. Then obamacare killed my health insurance. With my declining health my medical bills soared. I made 10k in overtime last year and used that money to pay down some debt. My IRA is small. I pretend it doesn't exist. It has dropped in value because of the recent economy. I know I should have put more into my retirement, but my debt isn't going away. The fire at work onThursday  has me going for the unemployment again. It kicks in and we will survive. Any problems there and I will be forced to using credit cards. And still pretend I am completely broke. In my head I tell myself my IRA is untouchable.

It seems we go from one disaster to the next. This year is off to a shitty start. Like so many others. I work hard. I try hard. But I feel like I've been slaughtered and now being grilled.

[jmyrlefuller]

Some people try to save but have bad luck ther entire lives through no fault of their own.  Major illness in family, long term job layoffs etc.

We have 40% of the population making meager wages who just get by every week.  No education and no ambition to improve themselves.

More and more have education but no means to use it to get to a better job... and lots of debt from that education to boot.

The fact is, 40% of the population is making meager wages because that's what the employers are offering. You can keep educating those people, but if the employers have no need for a wave of newly educated professionals, they'll still be stuck making those meager wages.

The vast majority of worker shortages in this country are in fields where pay is low, working conditions are terrible, and/or barriers to getting those jobs are too high.

[roamer_1]

I personally don't know anyone who is in financial trouble because they made wise financial decisions. Everyone I know that is going into retirement without savings suffers from the weight of their own decisions.

Nope. Early 40s with 2 active corporations. bouncing off the bottom of very serious money, and had I but another 5 years, I'd have caught the brass ring.

within a month I went from hale and hearty to wheelchair bound and chasing down a screaming yellow bobsled run from hell. Within 6 months all my business activities and savings were defunct, insurances removed when I could no longer make the premiums, and my wife was working 12 hour days just to try and halfway keep up with the income that used to keep a family of 6 rolling along.

You are stone-dead-wrong. It's all a lie - and what happened to me could happen to anyone.

[RoosGirl]

At 7%? In what dreamland does any working-class person have access to the Wall Street brokers that could get them that kind of rate of return?

Most are lucky to have access to a 2% savings account or CD.

7% is the average stock market return, adjusted for inflation, for the years 1950 theough 2010 I believe.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Nope. Early 40s with 2 active corporations. bouncing off the bottom of very serious money, and had I but another 5 years, I'd have caught the brass ring.

within a month I went from hale and hearty to wheelchair bound and chasing down a screaming yellow bobsled run from hell. Within 6 months all my business activities and savings were defunct, insurances removed when I could no longer make the premiums, and my wife was working 12 hour days just to try and halfway keep up with the income that used to keep a family of 6 rolling along.

You are stone-dead-wrong. It's all a lie - and what happened to me could happen to anyone.

I’m a defender of the medical system in the us but the payment side of things is another story entirely. Unless you have a 7 figure net worth you’re only one illness from financial disaster.

[bigheadfred]

How many people are depending on unfunded and maybe unfundable state pension plans? How many of them have put away their own money for retirement? And what happens to them when states become bankrupt and are not going to be paying these pensions? WHY should I cough up money to pay for them?

[LMAO]

How many people are depending on unfunded and maybe unfundable state pension plans? How many of them have put away their own money for retirement? And what happens to them when states become bankrupt and are not going to be paying these pensions? WHY should I cough up money to pay for them?

And this is another issue facing us. And if the states try to cover the cost by raising taxes some more, it will encourage even more flight of their residents and businesses to lower tax states

[roamer_1]

I’m a defender of the medical system in the us but the payment side of things is another story entirely. Unless you have a 7 figure net worth you’re only one illness from financial disaster.

I have a significantly different opinion. Western medicine had me in maintenance mode, with 20 friggin pills a day. What started me down the trail to wellness was not Western medicine in the least. It was foremost, a miracle, and secondarily, food-as-medicine and native/foraged medicine. My medicine costs me nothing, and is more effective than clay pills.

I can't say that all the way - My daughter was a heart baby - Without western med, she would have surely died. I went through kidney stones, that left alone, would have killed me dead.... maintaining me long enough to find my answers in this current malady... well that too was western med methods, and for all that I am grateful.

If you need something cut off, or bolted back on, or in most emergency situations, western med is awesome... but for anything else, there are brilliant and often more effective methods, that are substantially less costly.

[roamer_1]

How many people are depending on unfunded and maybe unfundable state pension plans? How many of them have put away their own money for retirement? And what happens to them when states become bankrupt and are not going to be paying these pensions? WHY should I cough up money to pay for them?

And therein is the lie of all socialist/communal systems: Sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.

[bigheadfred]

I have a significantly different opinion. Western medicine had me in maintenance mode, with 20 friggin pills a day. What started me down the trail to wellness was not Western medicine in the least. It was foremost, a miracle, and secondarily, food-as-medicine and native/foraged medicine. My medicine costs me nothing, and is more effective than clay pills.

I can't say that all the way - My daughter was a heart baby - Without western med, she would have surely died. I went through kidney stones, that left alone, would have killed me dead.... maintaining me long enough to find my answers in this current malady... well that too was western med methods, and for all that I am grateful.

If you need something cut off, or bolted back on, or in most emergency situations, western med is awesome... but for anything else, there are brilliant and often more effective methods, that are substantially less costly.

Western medicine has its use. I know of many people who will go to Mexico for vision/dental. But none for surgery. I think the pricing on medical here is outrageous. A cabal between medical, hospitals, insurance, Medicaid/Medicare. You can't just see a GP anymore. It is a specialist or many specialists. Charging exorbitant prices. Plus the cost of scripts.

[thackney]

...and no ambition to improve themselves.

Yep, but that isn't our fault or our responsibility.  It is theirs.

[roamer_1]

Western medicine has its use. I know of many people who will go to Mexico for vision/dental. But none for surgery. I think the pricing on medical here is outrageous. A cabal between medical, hospitals, insurance, Medicaid/Medicare. You can't just see a GP anymore. It is a specialist or many specialists. Charging exorbitant prices. Plus the cost of scripts.

That's right - And especially dental - I went to look at an implant, which is just a glorified hunk of bondo and a stainless sheetrock screw... Two thousand dollars... You gotta be friggin kidding me.

Everybody needs chompers... probably nothing more important to general health than teeth. The tech is simple, and the parts are too. There is no justifying that cost.

[roamer_1]

Plus the cost of scripts.

And btw... that fancy pill you was taking for the hep... how much per hit? something like 700 bucks? that same pill costs under 10 bucks anywhere but here. Jussayin

[Sanguine]

This is a really interesting issue for conservatives, and we need to think about it.  I will admit that my thinking on the matter is changing.  Used to be, I would have said, "their fault, it's on them."  But, our society has changed dramatically over the last 150 or so years.   

In the past, families and small communities would care for those in need not due to their own faults. We still have some of that, but not for the vast majority of people. 

Also, there were some serious self-limiting factors in play, as in, you didn't work, you didn't eat.  Real simple and a strong motivator.   It forced people to think about and plan for the future.  Now, we know that that safety net will catch us if we fall, and there is little stigma attached to tapping into it.

And, then we need to look at how our world works.  The Pareto Principle, for instance, which basically states, that in many cases, 80% of the available resources go to 20% of the population.  It's not a left/right thing, it's a thing. 

And, then there's IQ.  That's one we don't like to look at or admit to, because it denies a basic belief that everyone can do well in our society if they just try.  It's a lot more than just trying.  For instance, if your IQ is below a certain point, you simply can't see far enough ahead to know that you need to plan and how to do it.

So, we can take several positions here: 

1. People need to take care of themselves, and we need to cut tax-payer support so that they will have to develop the skills they need to survive.

2. The system is rigged from the start and smart bureaucrats need to be able to help those on the bottom of the system through life by taking resources from those on the top and redistributing them and by "educating" members of society so that they do what they should do.

There's obvious problems with both of those approaches. 

[roamer_1]

So, we can take several positions here: 

1. People need to take care of themselves, and we need to cut tax-payer support so that they will have to develop the skills they need to survive.

2. The system is rigged from the start and smart bureaucrats need to be able to help those on the bottom of the system through life by taking resources from those on the top and redistributing them and by "educating" members of society so that they do what they should do.

There's obvious problems with both of those approaches.

In fact @Sanguine , you hit the head of the nail right here:

In the past, families and small communities would care for those in need not due to their own faults. We still have some of that, but not for the vast majority of people. 

This is one of the very many benefits of family, and why family needs to be promoted instead of torn down...