Lindsey Graham’s push for regime change in Saudi Arabia is a dangerous mistake

[Chosen Daughter]

Lindsey Graham’s push for regime change in Saudi Arabia is a dangerous mistake


Jordan Schachtel  · December 7, 2018   

A coalition of Republican and Democratic senators have introduced a resolution seeking to directly interfere in the internal affairs of a close American ally in the Middle East, in effect endorsing regime change in Saudi Arabia.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., and five cosponsors — Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., Sen. Edward Markey, D-Mass., Sen. Todd Young, R-Ind., and Sen. Chris Coons, D-Del., — have demanded that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman (MBS), the de facto leader of Saudi Arabia, should be “held accountable” for the killing of the late Islamist Saudi national Jamal Khashoggi. They join calls by others in the Senate — such as the Iran- and Qatar-friendly Republican Senator Bob Corker — in pressuring Riyadh’s internal hierarchy.

“The crown prince is a wrecking ball. I think he’s complicit in the murder of Mr. Khashoggi to the highest level possible. I think his behavior before the Khashoggi murder was beyond disturbing. And I cannot see him being a reliable partner to the United States,” Graham said after an intelligence briefing this week. “If the Saudi government is going to be in the hands of this man for a long time to come, I find it very difficult to be able to do business because I think he’s crazy, I think he is dangerous, and he has put the relationship at risk.”

https://www.conservativereview.com/news/lindsey-grahams-push-for-regime-change-in-saudi-arabia-is-a-dangerous-mistake/

[Chosen Daughter]

The article is spot on.  We are calling for regime change?  Get real.  We should have learned our lesson in Libya.  We should stay out of it.   

[TomSea]

But it is also demonstrable that we have backed governments that are oppressive of the people, they overthrow their leaders and then, they hate us for having supported the despot.

I think the author, Jordan Schactel is incorrect in that Graham is calling for regime change per se, as in Libya at least. There's a lot of others in that Royal family that could become King.

The flip side:

Senator Marco Rubio: Saudi Crown Prince is ‘Going to Pull Us Into War’ With ‘Reckless’ Actions
by Ken Meyer | Dec 5th, 2018, 8:49 am 66

Senator Marco Rubio: Saudi Crown Prince is ‘Going to Pull Us Into War’ With ‘Reckless’ Actions

Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL) fears that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman will force the United States to take drastic action against Saudi Arabia someday if he doesn’t quit his authoritarian practices like orchestrating the death of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi.

As Rubio spoke to CNN’s John Berman, he was asked about why the White House denies the existence of any smoking gun against Salman despite the CIA’s “high confidence” assessment to the contrary. This was contrasted with the various lawmakers who said Salman’s guilt is unquestionable after they were briefed on the matter by CIA Director Gina Haspel.

When asked to explain the mixed messaging, Rubio said Trump’s cabinet was “carrying out the policy of the administration,” and America doesn’t require a smoking gun to take action on a diplomatic level. The senator agreed with preserving the U.S.-Saudi alliance, but said Salman is testing the limits of what America is willing to accept.

Read more at: https://www.mediaite.com/tv/senator-marco-rubio-saudi-crown-prince-is-going-to-pull-us-into-war-with-reckless-actions/

The Crown Prince may well be unstable, at the least, I'm glad the Senators are looking at it  and yes, I do trust some of them such as Rand Paul.  We don't need to be involved in wrongs committed in Yemen by supporting the Saudi regime. I'm not saying we are doing that but it should be looked at.

There are instances in the past, where the US has erred in interventions in foreign countries. That's kind of what we are doing in supporting Saudi Arabia in Yemen. I'm just unsure of what exactly is happening on the ground in Yemen beyond reports and if they are really true.

[Absalom]

The article is spot on.  We are calling for regime change?  Get real.  We should have learned our lesson in Libya.  We should stay out of it.   

----------------------------------
Indeed it is and indeed we should.
The wisdom of the past is vital here.
Lord Palmerston asserted that "Great nations have neither allies nor friends, simply interests."
But sanctimonious politicians like Graham, whoring after media attention, are oblivious.
The House of Saud was the instrument that ensured the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1
and remains a staunch ally of Jordan and Israel; arguably bedrocks of stability in the volcanic ME.
If Graham is looking for an enemy, our mortal adversary since the fall of the Pahlavi Monarchy
remains Iran, the catalyst for all the fear and trembling that shakes the Arab world!!!

[Chosen Daughter]

----------------------------------
Indeed it is and indeed we should.
The wisdom of the past is vital here.
Lord Palmerston asserted that "Great nations have neither allies nor friends, simply interests."
But sanctimonious politicians like Graham, whoring after media attention, are oblivious.
The House of Saud was the instrument that ensured the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1
and remains a staunch ally of Jordan and Israel; arguably bedrocks of stability in the volcanic ME.
If Graham is looking for an enemy, our mortal adversary since the fall of the Pahlavi Monarchy
remains Iran, the catalyst for all the fear and trembling that shakes the Arab world!!!

Exactly right.

[TomSea]

ISIS - Black Daesh

Saudi Arabia - White Daesh,

Father of radical Islamic terrorism in the world.

We already fought one war for them.  Be content with that, I suppose. Big supplier of ISIS soldiers, exporter of Salafism, Wahhabism. The writer is a dishonest and misinformed attention whore who'd love to get us into another war for the Saudis. 

Some can ply their rights to kill in Embassies. I won't push for that.

Conservative Review? Top 25 conservatives does not include Sen. Ben Sasse though, his rating does place him there?

By the way, Senator Ben Sasse as well, goes along with what these Senators say.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/418114-sasse-hits-trump-for-mumbling-past-saudi-crown-princes-role-in

Oh, hell, he must be an attention whore, hell, let our men die for the Kingdom. What should we care.  For terrorism that is homegrown to Saudi Arabia.  Don't count me in for your famines in Yemen.

Rubio, Sasse, slandered attention whore Graham, Senator Paul,  I'll go with their views.  Even though all of them must be attention whores.

Iran's the big threat? Remind me of the last time,  there were attacks in the USA, France, England, Germany, Australia claimed by Iran? I can think of plenty from ISIS. But I suppose the greater threat is what happens in far-away lands.

Nikki Haley too, don't give a pass to Saudi Arabia over this.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/nikki-haley-give-saudi-pass-khashoggi-murder-181209065801936.html

Saudis got caught, did it in their own embassy, I'm sure plenty of countries carry out assassinations, even Israel for that matter. But the Saudis got caught in this and will probably pay the piper.

[Chosen Daughter]

ISIS - Black Daesh

Saudi Arabia - White Daesh,

Father of radical Islamic terrorism in the world.

We already fought one war for them.  Be content with that, I suppose. Big supplier of ISIS soldiers, exporter of Salafism, Wahhabism. The writer is a dishonest and misinformed attention whore who'd love to get us into another war for the Saudis. 

Some can ply their rights to kill in Embassies. I won't push for that.

Conservative Review? Top 25 conservatives does not include Sen. Ben Sasse though, his rating does place him there?

By the way, Senator Ben Sasse as well, goes along with what these Senators say.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/418114-sasse-hits-trump-for-mumbling-past-saudi-crown-princes-role-in

Oh, hell, he must be an attention whore, hell, let our men die for the Kingdom. What should we care.  For terrorism that is homegrown to Saudi Arabia.  Don't count me in for your famines in Yemen.

Rubio, Sasse, slandered attention whore Graham, Senator Paul,  I'll go with their views.  Even though all of them must be attention whores.

Iran's the big threat? Remind me of the last time,  there were attacks in the USA, France, England, Germany, Australia claimed by Iran? I can think of plenty from ISIS. But I suppose the greater threat is what happens in far-away lands.

Nikki Haley too, don't give a pass to Saudi Arabia over this.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/nikki-haley-give-saudi-pass-khashoggi-murder-181209065801936.html

Saudis got caught, did it in their own embassy, I'm sure plenty of countries carry out assassinations, even Israel for that matter. But the Saudis got caught in this and will probably pay the piper.

Wow, don't go off or anything.  Guess what I can disagree with Ben Sasse too.  They should pay a price.  I am sure through diplomacy we can punish them for targeted assassination of this journalist.  Unrealistic that we could think we can force a regime change. 

From  what I read this journalist went from Extreme Islam even having some connection with Osama bin Laden to promoting a secular agenda in Saudi Arabia.  It would be hard for me, or anyone who is not privy to the details to determine how to punish Saudi Arabia.  I could never believe that regime change is the answer.  First of all it isn't going to happen with that structure of government.  Secondly we have seen the outcome Arab Spring and Libya.  NO.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

What is it that's special about this guy vs all the others mbs had tortured to death earlier this year?

[Chosen Daughter]

Graham is thinking that holding any arms sales to Saudi Arabia will force regime change.  Trump has already said he would not withhold arms sales over this.  So Graham is going against President Trump on this.

Lindsey Graham’s plan for regime change — in Saudi Arabia

Originally published December 5, 2018 at 11:30 am  |  Updated December 7, 2018 at 3:44 pm

There is an additional problem with Graham’s approach. If he forces the State Department to apply what are known as Magnitsky sanctions on MBS, why stop there? Khashoggi’s murder was brutal, yet there are other heads of state more deserving of this dishonor than MBS: The leaders of Russia, Turkey and Iran come to mind. And if the U.S. starts applying sanctions to heads of state, what is to stop other countries from sanctioning the U.S. president?

Finally, the Saudis also have leverage of their own. While Graham is correct that the Saudis have joined the American fight against Islamic State and Iran for their own strategic reasons, not as a favor to the U.S., the Saudis can still affect the price of oil. As the world’s largest exporter, they can make gasoline more expensive for Americans whenever they wish. The Saudi use of its oil weapon after the U.S. supported Israel in the Yom Kippur War helped caused the infamous gas station lines of the 1970s.

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/lindsey-grahams-plan-for-regime-change-in-saudi-arabia/

[Right_in_Virginia]

The article is spot on.  We are calling for regime change?  Get real.  We should have learned our lesson in Libya.  We should stay out of it.   

 

[Right_in_Virginia]

There's a lot going on in an effort to thwart Iran ...

Netanyahu looking to improve ties with Saudi Arabia
Israel National News, Dec 8, 2018

Hadashot reported that Prime Minister Netanyahu has been pushing to formalize Israel's long-rumored ties with Saudi Arabia.

According to the report, Netanyahu and Mossad head Yossi Cohen have been working to make the covert ties with the desert kingdom official in an effort coordinated by the United States.

Reports in recent years have indicated that Saudi Arabia and Israel are getting closer, though the two countries still do not have any official ties.

More:  http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/255875

[Right_in_Virginia]

But it is also demonstrable that we have backed governments that are oppressive of the people, they overthrow their leaders and then, they hate us for having supported the despot.  I think the author, Jordan Schactel is incorrect in that Graham is calling for regime change per se, as in Libya at least. There's a lot of others in that Royal family that could become King.

There are instances in the past, where the US has erred in interventions in foreign countries. That's kind of what we are doing in supporting Saudi Arabia in Yemen. I'm just unsure of what exactly is happening on the ground in Yemen beyond reports and if they are really true.

Why some are interested in stopping the guy dragging SA into the 21st century is a question I'd like an answer to.

Mohammad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al-Saud's plan for reforming SA:  https://vision2030.gov.sa/en

His life is already at risk, why are some law makers pushing the envelop?

[Chosen Daughter]

Why some are interested in stopping the guy dragging SA into the 21st century is a question I'd like an answer to.

Mohammad bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al-Saud's plan for reforming SA:  https://vision2030.gov.sa/en

His life is already at risk, why are some law makers pushing the envelop?

Hard to understand what happened because Saudi Arabia is changing.  Recently allowing women to drive.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Hard to understand what happened because Saudi Arabia is changing.  Recently allowing women to drive.

Vision 2030 outlines many changes in Saudi Arabia, both social and economic @Chosen Daughter   https://vision2030.gov.sa/en

[Chosen Daughter]

Vision 2030 outlines many changes in Saudi Arabia, both social and economic @Chosen Daughter   https://vision2030.gov.sa/en

I think this guy could have been in any ME country and met the same outcome for pushing the limits against the government. 

[Fishrrman]

It doesn't matter whether the Saudis sack Salman or not.
Nothing much changes there, no matter who's in charge.

The first step for REAL "change" will be to get rid of the entire "house of Saud".

Eventually, that may be coming anyway.
As in... "revolution".

[libertybele]

Graham is on a couple of subcommittees where this issue may come up, but ultimately regime change isn't up to him.

Trump has his Sec of Def, military advisors and generals for this decision.

[Right_in_Virginia]

I think this guy could have been in any ME country and met the same outcome for pushing the limits against the government.

Sorry, I don't understand this post.  Please explain. Thanks.

[Chosen Daughter]

Sorry, I don't understand this post.  Please explain. Thanks.

Sorry for the confusion.  I will elaborate.  We are talking about the ME even though this was specifically Saudi Arabia.  Anyone coming against an Islamic government is putting his own life at risk.  They shut down his twitter.  He was playing with fire.  If he had done it in Iran I doubt the outcome would be different.  Afghanistan, Pakistan.............

Not that it makes it right, it doesn't.  But he was pushing the limit.

[TomSea]

Ben Sasse being one and this is from October:

Two GOP senators say US should end arms sales to Saudis; Trump wants to continue deal

...

Sen. Ben Sasse said Sunday that ending arms sales to Saudi Arabia in response to the country's involvement in the death of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi "should be on the table."

"We don't do arms sales for the purposes of the profits from arms sales. We do arms sales because we want to be allied with different countries around the globe that believe in our values and have a long-term sense of what we're up to together and why we have that alliance," Sasse, a Republican from Nebraska, told CNN's Jake Tapper on "State of the Union."
"(The) Saudis got a lot of explaining to do," he said.

Read more at: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/21/politics/ben-sasse-sotu-cnntv/index.html

At least, per appearances, the US can't just keep doing business with a man who many say was directly involved in this killing in an embassy in another land, that being Turkey.  USA would look bad, it would look like we are condoning this killing.

Calling what Graham said "regime change" is pretty harsh. I suppose in the strictest interpretation it is.

Still, Trump has been pretty free of foreign policy screw ups as such, prior presidents have had, say Egypt, Libya and Honduras under Obama.

These Senators are largely saying, shape up. There's nothing wrong with us using out leverage to make the Saudi leadership behave better.

Anyone who criticized Graham, well, these Senators are largely saying the same. We may not be able to do business with MBS if this is how he acts. I don't see how that is a problem. Let's hope our days of supporting oppressive dictators is over unless, such a person is really needed. In Saudi Arabia, they'd just need to have someone else in the line of succession.

[Chosen Daughter]

Ben Sasse being one and this is from October:

At least, per appearances, the US can't just keep doing business with a man who many say was directly involved in this killing in an embassy in another land, that being Turkey.  USA would look bad, it would look like we are condoning this killing.

Calling what Graham said "regime change" is pretty harsh. I suppose in the strictest interpretation it is.

Still, Trump has been pretty free of foreign policy screw ups as such, prior presidents have had, say Egypt, Libya and Honduras under Obama.

These Senators are largely saying, shape up. There's nothing wrong with us using out leverage to make the Saudi leadership behave better.

Anyone who criticized Graham, well, these Senators are largely saying the same. We may not be able to do business with MBS if this is how he acts. I don't see how that is a problem. Let's hope our days of supporting oppressive dictators is over unless, such a person is really needed. In Saudi Arabia, they'd just need to have someone else in the line of succession.

Graham is the one using the term regime change.  I agree that it should not go without some kind of punishment.  If it is withholding arms sales for a certain amount of time,  Whatever diplomatic consequences to assure that Saudi Arabia knows we are serious so be it.  To assure that Saudi Arabia takes care of it internally.  When you start throwing the word regime change around you are looking for an enemy.  To sweep it under the rug is wrong too.

And we should be working with Turkey to find an appropriate diplomatic solution.

[Chosen Daughter]

Another thing I would say is that the President should negotiate the release of Khashoggis family from Saudi Arabia if they are being held there against their will.

I just wanted to say too that we allowed Hillary Clinton to run for President after she allowed Benghazi to happen.  Allowed our own Ambassador Stevens to be assassinated without even sending appropriate military back up.  Then she lied about what was happening.  We also if honest must admit that Hillary has had people assassinated.  But still she is able to speculate she could run for office in 2020.  Trump honored her,...............

The Trump administration should make it clear we do not approve of political assassination.  If it is holding up a current arms sale or whatever but to throw out regime change.  No.   We have had our hands in regime change that has led to much more extremist people in charge.  Egypt had to overthrow one after Arab Spring.

[TomSea]

Why Saad Hariri Had That Strange Sojourn in Saudi Arabia

By Anne Barnard and Maria Abi-Habib

    Dec. 24, 2017


Saad Hariri arriving at Beirut’s international airport last month, weeks after announcing his resignation as Lebanon’s prime minister in Saudi Arabia.CreditCreditMohamed Azakir/Reuters

BEIRUT, Lebanon — Lebanon’s prime minister, Saad Hariri, was summoned at 8:30 a.m. to the Saudi royal offices — unseemly early, by the kingdom’s standards — on the second day of a visit that was already far from what he had expected.

Mr. Hariri, long an ally of the Saudis, dressed that morning in jeans and a T-shirt, thinking he was going camping in the desert with the crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

But instead he was stripped of his cellphones, separated from all but one of his usual cluster of bodyguards, and shoved and insulted by Saudi security officers. Then came the ultimate indignity: He was handed a prewritten resignation speech and forced to read it on Saudi television.

Read more at: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/24/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-saad-hariri-mohammed-bin-salman-lebanon.html

A year ago, Saudi Arabia in essence kidnapped per a lot of media,  the Lebanese Prime Minister, Hariri. This was done under MBS. We've got to be careful with these people.

Plus, if Mohammed bin Salman was involved,  how will this look to the rest of the world?