Largest US nail manufacturer 'on the brink of extinction' because of the steel tariffs

[ABX]

Steel tariffs could force the nation's largest nail manufacturer to close or move to Mexico.

The Mid-Continent Nail plant in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, laid off 60 of its 500 workers last week because of increased steel costs. The company blames the 25% tariff on imported steel. Orders for nails plunged 50% after the company raised its prices to deal with higher steel costs.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/26/news/companies/steel-tariffs-job-losses/index.html

[roamer_1]

Waiting for a Clintonesque 'We can't worry over every underfunded company we might effect'

[INVAR]

Waiting for a Clintonesque 'We can't worry over every underfunded company we might effect'

You know it's coming, along with the lecture that this trade war Trump started is necessary to 'bring jobs and manufacturing back to the U.S.'

Add the targeting of businesses that are looking at going overseas because they cannot survive here in this country - and Trump may yet accomplish what Obama only dreamed of destroying.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Let's see who this "Largest US nail manufacturer" actually is.

Lo and behold, the company is a subsidiary of Deacero, a company founded in Monterrey Mexico by Don Cesar M. Gutierrez and a huge Mexican conglomerate.

http://www.magnumfasteners.com/about-us/
https://www.deacero.com/en/brands/

So we have a story about a Mexican company doing business here in the US who is impacted by steel tariffs and may return to its home.

Hey @AbaraXas - you need to do better than posting this type of trash.

[ABX]

Let's see who this "Largest US nail manufacturer" actually is.

Lo and behold, the company is a subsidiary of Deacero, a company founded in Monterrey Mexico by Don Cesar M. Gutierrez and a huge Mexican conglomerate.

http://www.magnumfasteners.com/about-us/
https://www.deacero.com/en/brands/

So we have a story about a Mexican company doing business here in the US who is impacted by steel tariffs and may return to its home.

Hey @AbaraXas - you need to do better than posting this type of trash.

How does that make any of it incorrect? The parent company may be from Mexico but it is still the largest U.S. nail manufacturer and those are American jobs being cut because of tariffs.

Do you not consider Chrysler an American car company even though the parent company is Fiat?

[IsailedawayfromFR]

How does that make any of it incorrect? The parent company may be from Mexico but it is still the largest U.S. nail manufacturer and those are American jobs being cut because of tariffs.

Do you not consider Chrysler an American car company even though the parent company is Fiat?

Here's the headline"

Largest US nail manufacturer 'on the brink of extinction' because of the steel tariffs

Everyone reading this would believe this to be a US company being annihilated.  It is just a scare tactic.

And no, Chrysler is no longer an American company.  It is 100% owned by an Italian company called Fiat.

The CEO of Fiat Chrysler is Sergio Marchionne, another Italian.

Did you not know any of this or are you awakening from a long slumber?

[cato potatoe]

Well, a ton of US companies are partly to wholly owned/financed by foreigners.  They still employ Americans and pay American vendors like anyone else.  Trump needs to consider the unintended consequences of his tax hikes. 

[montanajoe]

Waiting for a Clintonesque 'We can't worry over every underfunded company we might effect'

You nailed it...

[DB]

Here's the headline"

Largest US nail manufacturer 'on the brink of extinction' because of the steel tariffs

Everyone reading this would believe this to be a US company being annihilated.  It is just a scare tactic.

And no, Chrysler is no longer an American company.  It is 100% owned by an Italian company called Fiat.

The CEO of Fiat Chrysler is Sergio Marchionne, another Italian.

Did you not know any of this or are you awakening from a long slumber?

Funny, I thought the share holders owned Fiat.

I find it interesting how you happily rationalize the destruction of peoples lives. How you like using government to pick winners and losers. And then you wonder why all the nails (and a long list of other items) you buy are made outside the country...

Toyota makes a lot of cars in the US, but F' them too right? Because they aren't an "American company"...

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Funny, I thought the share holders owned Fiat.

I find it interesting how you happily rationalize the destruction of peoples lives. How you like using government to pick winners and losers. And then you wonder why all the nails (and a long list of other items) you buy are made outside the country...

Toyota makes a lot of cars in the US, but F' them too right? Because they aren't an "American company"...

You need to take your head out of wherever it is.

Where did I ever say anything other than Fiat is a foreign company?  Or that the nail manufacturer was foreign owned?

Please let me know where I said your words "you happily rationalize the destruction of peoples lives." or for Toyota F' them too right".

I am waiting to hear your response.  @DB

[jpsb]

You need to take your head out of wherever it is.

Where did I ever say anything other than Fiat is a foreign company?  Or that the nail manufacturer was foreign owned?

Please let me know where I said your words "you happily rationalize the destruction of peoples lives." or for Toyota F' them too right".

I am waiting to hear your response.  @DB

@IsailedawayfromFR

A lot of foreign nations restrict our access to their markets but we are not allowed to restrict their
access to our market? That is just plain crazy. And for most of our history we did not allow it
We became the world greatest super power behind high tariff walls. So called free trade that is any
thing but free trade is for sucker nations. Thankfully Trump understands this.

[montanajoe]

Two words... Smoot Hartley

[jpsb]

Two words... Smoot Hartley

LOL, debunked many times, just another progressive talking point that is not true.

[DB]

You need to take your head out of wherever it is.

Where did I ever say anything other than Fiat is a foreign company?  Or that the nail manufacturer was foreign owned?

Please let me know where I said your words "you happily rationalize the destruction of peoples lives." or for Toyota F' them too right".

I am waiting to hear your response.  @DB

You rationalized away people losing their jobs because they are employed by a foreign company. That Trump punishing them is just fine in picking winners and losers.

Americans along with lots of other people own stock in Fiat. They are the "owners".

Pretty simple really.

[DB]

LOL, debunked many times, just another progressive talking point that is not true.

LOL!

Progressive talking point is tariffs in general cause economic damage? Really? You're going to go with that?

Progressives love taxes. Sticking it to corporations.

It is the progressives who are the protectionists and want to insert government into people economic transactions.

Conservatives believe in open markets and keeping the government out of peoples economic transactions.

You have it entirely backwards.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

Recently, I've been wondering what it means to "buy American".

Ford is, AFAIK, registered in the US, paying US taxes, traded on a US stock exchange, while being owned by well, whomever buys their stock, and builds their cars in Mexico to sell in the US.

BMW is a German company who builds their cars for the US market in South Carolina.  Probably incorporated in Germany, traded on a German market, and owned, by, well, whomever buys their stock.

Is the patriotic thing to do to buy a Ford, because they (might) pay more taxes to the US, or to buy a BMW because more of my money would go to US workers (aka taxpayers)?   What if 100% of Ford stock was owned by Russians, and 100% of BMW stock was owned by Chinese -- would that make a difference? 

“In our private pursuits it is a great advantage that every honest employment is deemed honorable. I am myself a nail maker.”

[jpsb]

LOL!

Progressive talking point is tariffs in general cause economic damage? Really? You're going to go with that?

Progressives love taxes. Sticking it to corporations.

It is the progressives who are the protectionists and want to insert government into people economic transactions.

Conservatives believe in open markets and keeping the government out of peoples economic transactions.

You have it entirely backwards.

You have that exactly wrong, neocons like Bush are not conservatives. Our experiment with so
called free trade was a huge failure. We went from an economic super power to a debtor nation
largely because of so called free trade. The results are in, free trade kills. Which is why most of the
rest of the world protects their industries and their markets. So called free trade is for sucker nations.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

You have that exactly wrong, neocons like Bush are not conservatives. Our experiment with so
called free trade was a huge failure. We went from an economic super power to a debtor nation
largely because of so called free trade. The results are in, free trade kills. Which is why most of the
rest of the world protects their industries and their markets. So called free trade is for sucker nations.

We are about 5% of the world population.  We account for around 35% of world GDP.  If that's not an economic super power, nothing is.

I thank the Good Lord free trade put us in this position to begin with.  Exploiting the moronic "protection"ism has been one of the greatest boons to our economy any nation has ever been blessed with.  The
rest of the world protects their industries and their markets -- How come they suck and we rock?   

[DB]

You have that exactly wrong, neocons like Bush are not conservatives. Our experiment with so
called free trade was a huge failure. We went from an economic super power to a debtor nation
largely because of so called free trade. The results are in, free trade kills. Which is why most of the
rest of the world protects their industries and their markets. So called free trade is for sucker nations.

We're in debt to up to our eyeballs because we decided we wanted a big all powerful government to take of us. It's growth has consumed everything.

[jpsb]

We are about 5% of the world population.  We account for around 35% of world GDP.  If that's not an economic super power, nothing is.

I thank the Good Lord free trade put us in this position to begin with.  Exploiting the moronic "protection"ism has been one of the greatest boons to our economy any nation has ever been blessed with.  The
rest of the world protects their industries and their markets -- How come they suck and we rock?

Free trade DID NOT put us in this position. You might want to read a little history, it was behind
high tariff walls that we became an economic super power. So called free trade has just about
bankrupted us.

twenty+ trillion in debt,
1.4 billion budget deficit.
210 trillion in unfunded liabilities,
500+ billion yearly trade deficits. 

We better hope the feds don't raise interests rates or we are screwed with the huge debts we have.
We also better hope that Saudi Arabia continues to only accept US dollars for oil because that is
the only reason anyone wants our dollar.

[jpsb]

We're in debt to up to our eyeballs because we decided we wanted a big all powerful government to take of us. It's growth has consumed everything.

True we abandoned our conservative ways an adopted progressive ism.  Progressive ism includes
so called free trade, conservatism does not. That is until the hated neocons came along and
changed what it means to be a conservative. Back in the day conservatives supported tariffs
progressives did not.

In 1896, the GOP platform pledged to “renew and emphasize our allegiance to the policy of protection, as the bulwark of American industrial independence, and the foundation of development and prosperity. This true American policy taxes foreign products and encourages home industry. It puts the burden of revenue on foreign goods; it secures the American market for the American producer. It upholds the American standard of wages for the American workingman.”

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

Free trade DID NOT put us in this position. You might want to read a little history, it was behind
high tariff walls that we became an economic super power. So called free trade has just about
bankrupted us.

twenty+ trillion in debt,
1.4 billion budget deficit.
210 trillion in unfunded liabilities,
500+ billion yearly trade deficits. 

We better hope the feds don't raise interests rates or we are screwed with the huge debts we have.
We also better hope that Saudi Arabia continues to only accept US dollars for oil because that is
the only reason anyone wants our dollar.

Protectionist tariffs were the norm when we we lucky enough to be a roughly sucessfull nation before becoming the great economic super power.  We didn't become successful because of them, but in spite of them. 

If one was to read a bit of history, the US became the great economic super power based on a few things.  Vast (virtually) untapped natural resources, a Christian/libertarian work ethic, and the fact that the rest of the world bombed the ever loving crap out of each others' factories in the early 20th century.  Trade allowed us to capitalize on these advantages.  Had we kept our noses stuck in the foolishness of the dark ages, we would have missed one of the greatest economic booms in history.   

P.S.  It was behind high tariff walls that the rest of the world became our bitches.  Is that really a great argument for raising taxes?   If you're going to argue that tariffs were the reason we became successful, please "explain" why they were also the reason all other nations became the opposite.   

[jpsb]

Protectionist tariffs were the norm when we we lucky enough to be a roughly sucessfull nation before becoming the great economic super power.  We didn't become successful because of them, but in spite of them. 

If one was to read a bit of history, the US became the great economic super power based on a few things.  Vast (virtually) untapped natural resources, a Christian/libertarian work ethic, and the fact that the rest of the world bombed the ever loving crap out of each others' factories in the early 20th century.  Trade allowed us to capitalize on these advantages.  Had we kept our noses stuck in the foolishness of the dark ages, we would have missed one of the greatest economic booms in history.   

P.S.  It was behind high tariff walls that the rest of the world became our bitches.  Is that really a great argument for raising taxes?   If you're going to argue that tariffs were the reason we became successful, please "explain" why they were also the reason all other nations became the opposite.

First of all our industrial might was built from 1830's thru the 1960's. During most of that period
we had high tariffs. Used to be Republicans wanted tariffs and Democrats didn't.

Used to be that gov was funded by tariffs and not a progressive income tax. I kind of like that.

The reason tariffs help us become a economic super power is very simple. Tariffs allowed the USA
to develop our industry without having to compete with the super powers of the 19th and early
20th century. England and Germany. Note that England economic strength declined after adopting
so called free trade. Lincoln said "If we buy the rail from England, we will have the rail and England
will have the money. But if we make the rail here we will have the rail and we will have the money."
Lincoln was quite correct on that.

All the rest of the world did not become the opposite. WW1 took a terrible toll on Europe but
Europe recovered and then along comes WW2. Again a terrible toll on Europe (and Japan) but
both have recovered and it is interesting to note both have protectionist tariffs and other restrictions
that hinder American companies from completing in their markets as does China.

Please explain how China became an economic super power behind high tariff walls if tariffs are bad
for a nations economy? Dido the super power of Europe, Germany.

We are broke, up to our neck in debt and running huge trade deficits. I'd say our free trade
experiment has been a huge failure. Maybe we should go back to what we know works, protecting
American industry and American jobs. Just like what most of the rest of the world is doing.

[Oceander]

That nails it!

[DB]

First of all our industrial might was built from 1830's thru the 1960's. During most of that period
we had high tariffs. Used to be Republicans wanted tariffs and Democrats didn't.

Used to be that gov was funded by tariffs and not a progressive income tax. I kind of like that.

The reason tariffs help us become a economic super power is very simple. Tariffs allowed the USA
to develop our industry without having to compete with the super powers of the 19th and early
20th century. England and Germany. Note that England economic strength declined after adopting
so called free trade. Lincoln said "If we buy the rail from England, we will have the rail and England
will have the money. But if we make the rail here we will have the rail and we will have the money."
Lincoln was quite correct on that.

All the rest of the world did not become the opposite. WW1 took a terrible toll on Europe but
Europe recovered and then along comes WW2. Again a terrible toll on Europe (and Japan) but
both have recovered and it is interesting to note both have protectionist tariffs and other restrictions
that hinder American companies from completing in their markets as does China.

Please explain how China became an economic super power behind high tariff walls if tariffs are bad
for a nations economy? Dido the super power of Europe, Germany.

We are broke, up to our neck in debt and running huge trade deficits. I'd say our free trade
experiment has been a huge failure. Maybe we should go back to what we know works, protecting
American industry and American jobs. Just like what most of the rest of the world is doing.

I suggest you go look at China's per capita GDP and see just how wealthy they really are. It is something like a quarter of the US's. That is a drastic difference.

Yes, they've had a lot of growth - but that's because they started from essentially zero in relatively recent times when they loosened the economic shackles on their people. They are not the model for economic success, especially long term.

Our economic problems are primarily because of big government cradle to grave social services/regulation intertwined with government corruption seeking more power/votes consuming a large part of our resources. We've already passed critical mass between the makers and the takers. And the government keeps piling on more demands of the makers while expanding the pool of takers. It is death by a thousand cuts. And it is very unlikely to change course because of that critical mass issue. The chain reaction is already in motion.

[Fishrrman]

jpsb --

Excellent argument and analysis in #22 above !

"Free trade" -- it wasn't "free", and it wasn't fair, either.

[Frank Cannon]

First of all our industrial might was built from 1830's thru the 1960's. During most of that period
we had high tariffs. Used to be Republicans wanted tariffs and Democrats didn't.

Used to be that gov was funded by tariffs and not a progressive income tax. I kind of like that.

The reason tariffs help us become a economic super power is very simple. Tariffs allowed the USA
to develop our industry without having to compete with the super powers of the 19th and early
20th century. England and Germany. Note that England economic strength declined after adopting
so called free trade. Lincoln said "If we buy the rail from England, we will have the rail and England
will have the money. But if we make the rail here we will have the rail and we will have the money."
Lincoln was quite correct on that.

All the rest of the world did not become the opposite. WW1 took a terrible toll on Europe but
Europe recovered and then along comes WW2. Again a terrible toll on Europe (and Japan) but
both have recovered and it is interesting to note both have protectionist tariffs and other restrictions
that hinder American companies from completing in their markets as does China.

Please explain how China became an economic super power behind high tariff walls if tariffs are bad
for a nations economy? Dido the super power of Europe, Germany.

We are broke, up to our neck in debt and running huge trade deficits. I'd say our free trade
experiment has been a huge failure. Maybe we should go back to what we know works, protecting
American industry and American jobs. Just like what most of the rest of the world is doing.

Top Notch.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

Tariffs...

Because government has such a proven history of making  the right policy decisions.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help you. 

[kevindavis007]

I just don't think the Government should be in the business of picking winners and loses. As with the case of tariffs.

[roamer_1]

I just don't think the Government should be in the business of picking winners and loses. As with the case of tariffs.

That can go the other way around.

The US gvt utterly destroyed the lumber industry. Outside of gating off lumber, and outside of insane environmental regulations, and outside of locked up timber sales, The US also did nothing to stop the subsidized lumber from Canada from pouring in.

Now that there is no timber industry, Canadian lumber has gone up in price, and you routinely see crazy costs for plywood and stick lumber. The retail cost of a sheet of 1/2" plywood in the summer time is insane.

There is no putting it back either. Not without a long term commitment from the feds, and a protected market  (most probably by way of tariff). Big Lumber is not going to put the mills back, and invest in road building and logging equipment without a guaranteed reason to do so. And with that infrastructure gone, there is no recovery possible.

[Hoodat]

Top Notch.

Top notch BS.

[Hoodat]

I just don't think the Government should be in the business of picking winners and loses. As with the case of tariffs.

It was bad when Obama did it.  But when Trump does It, it suddenly becomes good.  Go figure.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

That can go the other way around.

The US gvt utterly destroyed the lumber industry. Outside of gating off lumber, and outside of insane environmental regulations, and outside of locked up timber sales, The US also did nothing to stop the subsidized lumber from Canada from pouring in.

Now that there is no timber industry, Canadian lumber has gone up in price, and you routinely see crazy costs for plywood and stick lumber. The retail cost of a sheet of 1/2" plywood in the summer time is insane.

There is no putting it back either. Not without a long term commitment from the feds, and a protected market  (most probably by way of tariff). Big Lumber is not going to put the mills back, and invest in road building and logging equipment without a guaranteed reason to do so. And with that infrastructure gone, there is no recovery possible.

Exactly right.  It is the main reason why we should not do away with car tariffs between us and the EU.  They have been screwing us for years by fixing high tariffs on our cars while we only charged 2.5% to let theirs in.

And now they suddenly just want to 'drop' them between us.

I say 'Screw you', and jack it up a lot higher.

[roamer_1]

Exactly right.  It is the main reason why we should not do away with car tariffs between us and the EU.  They have been screwing us for years by fixing high tariffs on our cars while we only charged 2.5% to let theirs in.

And now they suddenly just want to 'drop' them between us.

I say 'Screw you', and jack it up a lot higher.

You misinterpret my objection.

If Canada were to lift its lumber subsidy right now, it would make no difference whatsoever - the US lumber industry is *gone*. The mills are *gone*. The logging and road equipment *gone*, all hauled away for pennies on the dollar.  It isn't there anymore.

Most of the big players are gone. Weyerhauser and Stone Container are still around, but largely regeared. LP went bankrupt. many others did too.

If US Auto were to be given reduced regulation and lifted subsidies for their competitors, they could ramp up - their factories are largely in place. Their labor force is easy to increase. They could meet their needs in order to cash in and profit.

US Lumber cannot.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

You misinterpret my objection.

If Canada were to lift its lumber subsidy right now, it would make no difference whatsoever - the US lumber industry is *gone*. The mills are *gone*. The logging and road equipment *gone*, all hauled away for pennies on the dollar.  It isn't there anymore.

Most of the big players are gone. Weyerhauser and Stone Container are still around, but largely regeared. LP went bankrupt. many others did too.

If US Auto were to be given reduced regulation and lifted subsidies for their competitors, they could ramp up - their factories are largely in place. Their labor force is easy to increase. They could meet their needs in order to cash in and profit.

US Lumber cannot.

I actually agree with you.

It is far more important to preserve our automobile plants.  Someone will need to be able to build tanks and weaponry when, not if, we go to war.  I believe Trump knows this.

[kevindavis007]

I actually agree with you.

It is far more important to preserve our automobile plants.  Someone will need to be able to build tanks and weaponry when, not if, we go to war.  I believe Trump knows this.

I hope you realize that times have changed. We have specific industries that build the planes, tanks, and specific weaponry. The reason why in WWII we had to use them cause politicians gutted our military.

[Hoodat]

I hope you realize that times have changed. We have specific industries that build the planes, tanks, and specific weaponry. The reason why in WWII we had to use them cause politicians gutted our military.

Don't you find it funny how the other side keeps coming up with new motives for tariffs? Especially considering that their original reason - to create economic growth - was soundly debunked.  This is no different than arguing with Democrats.

[kevindavis007]

Don't you find it funny how the other side keeps coming up with new motives for tariffs? Especially considering that their original reason - to create economic growth - was soundly debunked.  This is no different than arguing with Democrats.

It is funny. They tend to have a certain worldview and a certain view of history. It is, I just don't think Government should be protecting GM or Ford because of what they did in WWII. That was then, this is now. I prefer to live in the here and now.

[roamer_1]

I actually agree with you.

It is far more important to preserve our automobile plants.  Someone will need to be able to build tanks and weaponry when, not if, we go to war.  I believe Trump knows this.

I don't think that's true - I think if they can compete, let em. The worst thing possible was bailing out Big Auto. They all desperately needed to go through restructuring. They all needed to shed calcified bureaucracy and ineffective labor. They all needed to address poor quality and poor planning. They need better ideas. New blood. The ability to risk. The better outcome would have presented if they were allowed to fail.

If they can't compete, examination is recommendable. I am not against what Reagan did for Harley. It brought Harley back. If an industry is damaged because of regulation, or special taxation, or government favoring labor, or government favoring overseas competition for political purposes, by all means, level the field and relieve the industry of what we have imposed upon them so they can get on their feet. If that must include temporarily protecting that market, then so be it.

But neither of those conditions are what took out Big Timber. This was an orchestrated and intentional destruction imposed by the federal government. They were purposefully destroyed. Even if you lift sanctions and open timber sales, no one is going to invest without a long term promise of return. That means a protected market. That means government favor... To put that industry back, and strong enough to stand on it's own, is a serious commitment across a couple decades. Otherwise it would be foolish to invest the billions it will take to put it back. This is not a short gain game.

[kevindavis007]

Steel tariffs that went into effect the first week of June are causing a factory in Missouri to lay off dozens of workers due to lost business from cancelled customer orders.

At the MidContinent Steel and Wire plant in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, where Magnum Fasteners products are made, 60 employees were laid off this month as certain operations were idled due to lost business from increased steel costs.

Company in "crisis mode"

The company is the largest nail manufacturer in the U.S. and employs hundreds of people in Poplar Bluff. It is owned by Deacaro, a Mexico-headquartered firm which ships steel from its mills in Mexico into the U.S. for a variety of finished products. The administration's steel tariffs add a 25 percent penalty to the raw material.

"The imposition of these tariffs on our raw materials on June 1st has actually put our operations into a crisis mode," operations general manager Chris Pratt told KFVS in an interview.

One employee laid off last Monday said the layoffs could be a sign of bigger problems at the nail factory, KFVS reported.

Read More: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/factory-workers-lose-jobs-as-steel-tariffs-put-business-in-crisis-mode/

Winning...

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I hope you realize that times have changed. We have specific industries that build the planes, tanks, and specific weaponry. The reason why in WWII we had to use them cause politicians gutted our military.

And I do hope you realize war means survival.  That means you pull out all stops to win, no matter what.

War causes one to use all resources at one's disposal like factories, to restrict usage of certain things like petroleum, to get everyone to help in the war effort, like women not otherwise working, to be on assembly lines.

[jpsb]

Don't you find it funny how the other side keeps coming up with new motives for tariffs? Especially considering that their original reason - to create economic growth - was soundly debunked.  This is no different than arguing with Democrats.

You can fund government with tariffs or with the progressive income tax. I find it strange that
conservatives prefer a progressive income tax to a voluntary sales tax on foreign goods. Maybe
we have a few Fake Conservatives posting here.

[Oceander]

You can fund government with tariffs or with the progressive income tax. I find it strange that
conservatives prefer a progressive income tax to a voluntary sales tax on foreign goods. Maybe
we have a few Fake Conservatives posting here.

/snicker

Actually, no, you can’t. 

[Hoodat]

I suggest you go look at China's per capita GDP and see just how wealthy they really are. It is something like a quarter of the US's. That is a drastic difference.

Yes, they've had a lot of growth - but that's because they started from essentially zero in relatively recent times when they loosened the economic shackles on their people. They are not the model for economic success, especially long term.

Our economic problems are primarily because of big government cradle to grave social services/regulation intertwined with government corruption seeking more power/votes consuming a large part of our resources.

This.

[jpsb]

/snicker

Actually, no, you can’t.

Are you a big government progressive Marxist troll? We funded gov without a progressive income
tax thru most of our history. It was only after WW2 that gov put the screws to us with the
Marxist income tax. I am very surprised to see all these so called conservatives defending the
Marxist income tax.

[jpsb]

This.

What ever they have the worlds largest economy (or soon will) and they did that behind a wall of
high tariffs. Just like we did. Those are the facts.

Tariffs protect domestic industries and allow them to grow. They prevent predatory trade practices
like dumping.

Maybe you don't give a damn about American industry and American jobs as long as you can get
cheap stuff at Wal-mart but remember this. The Chicoms are putting the dollars you send then
into machines designed to kill you and your family. And they have the will do use those weapons if
they think they need to.

[endicom]

Topics merged.

[Oceander]

Are you a big government progressive Marxist troll? We funded gov without a progressive income
tax thru most of our history. It was only after WW2 that gov put the screws to us with the
Marxist income tax. I am very surprised to see all these so called conservatives defending the
Marxist income tax.

If the federal government never imposed an income tax until after WWII, then how was it possible for the Supreme Court to hold the income tax unconstitutional back in 1895, and the 16th amendment to be ratified in 1913?

[Frank Cannon]

It was bad when Obama did it.  But when Trump does It, it suddenly becomes good.  Go figure.

If tariffs are so bad, why have we always have them in one way or another? It only pissed you folks off that Trump is using it as a negotiating tactic. Ever hear of the Chicken Tax and the Subaru Brat? Ever wonder why they put seats in the back of them?



I've been circulating on these political forums for a couple decades and NO ONE ever gave a rats ass about any of this till one guy decided to use them at a stick in trade negotiations. No one.

[jpsb]

If the federal government never imposed an income tax until after WWII, then how was it possible for the Supreme Court to hold the income tax unconstitutional back in 1895, and the 16th amendment to be ratified in 1913?

At first income taxes were only levied on the very wealthy. That is how the income tax was sold to
the American people, a voluntary tax only on millionaires. But after a while around the time of
WW2 the "voluntary" disappeared and so did the "only on millionaires". Income tax plus Federal Reserve equal lots of "free" money for our political leaders. That is until our debt become so large
that just paying the interest consumes just about the entire budget. You better hope the feds
keep interest rates very low.

You really should read a little history from time to time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_taxes_by_type.pdf