Don't be surprised if your doctor asks you about guns

[thackney]

So why should my and my family's safety be compromised because gun owners demand the right to assemble arsenals in secret (thereby creating the conditions whereby criminals can do the same thing?)

Your safety is in no way compromised by my legal owning of multiple firearms.  It does not create any condition when the criminal isn't going to follow the law in the first place.

[Jazzhead]

Stick it where the sun doesn’t shine statist...we will not comply...no matter how many times you propose your schemes. 

You want them?  YOU come and get them!  Make sure you dont send someone else.

 

Take you meds, Axeslinger.   

[thackney]

...Thanks, @driftdiver , for proposing this analogy.   We ALL understand the stupidity and selfishness of the left's arguments against voter IDs.   Let's put down our prejudices and paranoia and understand that firearms registration can enhance public safety at little cost to gun owners.   And that our Constitution provides the protection that registration will not lead to confiscation.

Yes, registration required for the use and action, not the mere existence and ownership of the right, but for the use in public affairs.

[Jazzhead]

Your safety is in no way compromised by my legal owning of multiple firearms. 

I have never supported any restrictions on your legal owning of multiple firearms.  Just that you register them so that your use, transfer and disposition of them can be identified as YOUR legal responsibility.   

[INVAR]

Registration is indeed about taking responsibility.   

WE WILL NOT COMPLY.

You are going to have to empower the agents of your government to shoot and kill us to force compliance.

And then, when they come.... it's time to water the tree of liberty.

[thackney]

I have never supported any restrictions on your legal owning of multiple firearms.  Just that you register them so that your use, transfer and disposition of them can be identified as YOUR legal responsibility.

My use is already my legal responsibility.  Transfer and disposition is also in accordance with laws so also my legal responsibility.

What you want is to add to the legal burden and set us up for government abuse, as has been shown in most gun registrations.

[Axeslinger]

WE WILL NOT COMPLY.

You are going to have to empower the agents of your government to shoot and kill us to force compliance.

And then, when they come.... it's time to water the tree of liberty.

More than that I insist that this statist  @Jazzhead volunteer to BE one of those agents of the government.  Otherwise he’s just another gutless troll wanting others to do his dirty work.  As I said above...you want em, YOU come get them.   Otherwise STFU.

[Cyber Liberty]

The purpose of registration - just as it is with cars -  is to assign each firearm to the person who is legally responsible for its use, transfer and disposition.   

You may actually believe that in your heart.  I maintain the purpose of registration is to keep the government up-to-date on where these "Death Machines," as you call them, are so if the need arises they can go around and collect them.  There is ample case history of that being done, every time somebody in government gets the itch.

This is why I'm with @Axeslinger and @INVAR  I will not comply either.  Your protestations to the contrary, I know where that road leads.  Your right to live "safe" and ignorant does not trump my God-given right to self defense.

[Cyber Liberty]

Take you meds, Axeslinger.

And you say I'm wrong to accuse you of mocking.

[Cyber Liberty]

WE WILL NOT COMPLY.

You are going to have to empower the agents of your government to shoot and kill us to force compliance.

And then, when they come.... it's time to water the tree of liberty.

I'm with @Axeslinger.  I think that little guy should not be allowed to delegate the chore of collecting our weapons.  He's the one demanding lives be put at risk to enforce his plan, and a true leader of men goes to the front of the line when it's time to take on risk.

[Jazzhead]

This is why I'm with @Axeslinger and @INVAR  I will not comply either.  Your protestations to the contrary, I know where that road leads.  Your right to live "safe" and ignorant does not trump my God-given right to self defense.

Stop hyperventilating.  No one is threatening your "God given right to self defense".   Set up barbed wire and snipers' nests at all four corners of your property if you're that paranoid about folks knocking on your door.

Registration is about taking responsibility, not deprivation of your rights.  You are legally responsible for the use, transfer and disposition of your firearms.  Do you really disagree with that statement?   Registration is a reasonable tool by which the peaceable community can enforce that responsibility.     

[Jazzhead]

And you say I'm wrong to accuse you of mocking.

Idiocy deserves to be mocked.   

[Jazzhead]

I'm with @Axeslinger.  I think that little guy should not be allowed to delegate the chore of collecting our weapons.  He's the one demanding lives be put at risk to enforce his plan, and a true leader of men goes to the front of the line when it's time to take on risk.

No one is seeking to "collect your weapons".  Take 'em to bed with you for all I care;  tell Mrs. CL to use the couch.   

Of course, if you defy the law,  then you will be the legitimate target of law enforcement.  I predict you'll fold like a cheap tent.   

[driftdiver]

Just because the left adopts an idiot position doesn't mean that conservatives should parrot it.   

Registration is a tiny burden that enhances public safety by encouraging documented transfers and dispositions of firearms.  Just as an ID requirement is a tiny burden that enhances the efficacy of free and fair elections.   

Why should my vote be rendered meaningless because the lack of a photo ID requirement encourages voter fraud?  We all recognize that providing identification to vote is simple common sense. 

So why should my and my family's safety be compromised because gun owners demand the right to assemble arsenals in secret (thereby creating the conditions whereby criminals can do the same thing?)

Thanks, @driftdiver , for proposing this analogy.   We ALL understand the stupidity and selfishness of the left's arguments against voter IDs.   Let's put down our prejudices and paranoia and understand that firearms registration can enhance public safety at little cost to gun owners.   And that our Constitution provides the protection that registration will not lead to confiscation.

@Jazzhead
Your familys safety isn't compromised by gun owners.  Its compromised by criminals who can use a lot of different types of weapons or just their fists.

Your paranoia isn't sufficient cause to infringe.

[thackney]

Stop hyperventilating.  No one is threatening your "God given right to self defense".   Set up barbed wire and snipers' nests at all four corners of your property if you're that paranoid about folks knocking on your door.

Registration is about taking responsibility, not deprivation of your rights.  You are legally responsible for the use, transfer and disposition of your firearms.  Do you really disagree with that statement?  Registration is a reasonable tool by which the peaceable community can enforce that responsibility.   

I would like to explore this claim.

Let us start with use.  How does registration of a firearm enforce responsible use of a firearm as compared to an unregistered firearm?  What has changed impacting use?

[Sanguine]

Idiocy deserves to be mocked.

But, if it helps, I cringe sometimes when people are going after you.

[driftdiver]

No one is seeking to "collect your weapons".  Take 'em to bed with you for all I care;  tell Mrs. CL to use the couch.   

Of course, if you defy the law,  then you will be the legitimate target of law enforcement.  I predict you'll fold like a cheap tent.

@Jazzhead
More lies, of course you want to take peoples guns.  You've openly stated that for all the noise you make about it.

I do notice that you threaten to use force (with firearms) to infringe upon other peoples rights.   While you wouldn't do the dirty work yourself you are more than happy to send others.

Exactly the reason the Founders put the 2nd in there.

[Axeslinger]

No one is seeking to "collect your weapons".  Take 'em to bed with you for all I care;  tell Mrs. CL to use the couch.   

Of course, if you defy the law,  then you will be the legitimate target of law enforcement.  I predict you'll fold like a cheap tent.

And there you have it, folks.  A glimpse behind the curtain. 

You are a tyrant wanna be who is too gutless to put his own ass on the line.   You want em, you come get em, statist

[Cyber Liberty]

Stop hyperventilating.  No one is threatening your "God given right to self defense".   Set up barbed wire and snipers' nests at all four corners of your property if you're that paranoid about folks knocking on your door.

Registration is about taking responsibility, not deprivation of your rights.  You are legally responsible for the use, transfer and disposition of your firearms.  Do you really disagree with that statement?   Registration is a reasonable tool by which the peaceable community can enforce that responsibility.   

OK, one last time:  I disagree that universal registration is benign.  As @thackney has patiently pointed out to you more than once, I already am responsible in the use, transfer and disposition of my arms.  I don't need nor want your, or the the nanny state's help to do so.

I think universal registration is malignant, and is proposed as a manner to get control of the weapons of the citizens to enable a malignant government to become our masters, in deed as well as in name.

If you expect me to cooperate, you can go hang.  I will not comply.  If you think it's a good idea to forcibly register everybody's weapons, then man up and do it yourself.  Don't delegate that chore to somebody else like a coward.

I will not be goaded into replying to any more of your leftist posts on this thread, you are a broken record.  If I reply further on this thread, it will be to others who are actually listening, and not to leftists who are just trying to lecture me.  Good day.

[driftdiver]

I would like to explore this claim.

Let us start with use.  How does registration of a firearm enforce responsible use of a firearm as compared to an unregistered firearm?  What has changed impacting use?

@thackney
IMO we need to be careful about being put on the defensive here.   Like you did, we need to demand they justify all their outrageous plans. 

Guns are illegal in Brazil and Mexico.   They have massive crime problems.   None of these gun control plans work but they keep pushing them.   Because its not about safety, its about control.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Jazzhead
More lies, of course you want to take peoples guns.  You've openly stated that for all the noise you make about it.

I do notice that you threaten to use force (with firearms) to infringe upon other peoples rights.   While you wouldn't do the dirty work yourself you are more than happy to send others.

Exactly the reason the Founders put the 2nd in there.

He's a fookin' coward, and he admits it.  In fact, I think he's rather proud that he thinks he can order other men to come to my house so I can "fold up like a tent."

[thackney]

@thackney
IMO we need to be careful about being put on the defensive here.   Like you did, we need to demand they justify all their outrageous plans. 

Guns are illegal in Brazil and Mexico.   They have massive crime problems.   None of these gun control plans work but they keep pushing them.   Because its not about safety, its about control.

I'm not being defensive.  I am tearing apart the false claims.  When 97% of the guns used in crimes are already illegally obtained, it seems extremely foolish to concentrate on the 3% while pretending it is to reduce gun crime.  Unless your motivation is actually something else.

[roamer_1]

Gun owners have little faith in the Constitution when they demand the right to live separate and apart from the community.

@Jazzhead
Who the hell are you to impose your community on me? In FACT, that is exactly what the Constitution protects against - That is why it is federalist in it's construction. Do what you want to in YOUR state. Leave me and mine ALONE.

[driftdiver]

I'm not being defensive.  I am tearing apart the false claims.  When 97% of the guns used in crimes are already illegally obtained, it seems extremely foolish to concentrate on the 3% while pretending it is to reduce gun crime.  Unless your motivation is actually something else.

Of course their motivation is something else.  You know that, and I know that.  Heck on rare events they even acknowledge it.

They don't care about safety, the children, suicide or anything else (except maybe how to encourage a destructive lifestyle).   No they care about taking the power from the people and keeping it with the govt.

Because when they ban guns they also ban self defense.   They start telling people to hide under their beds and prosecuting them if an intruder gets hurt.

[roamer_1]

It will significantly enhance public safety at minimal  cost to gun owners. 

It does *nothing* to enhance public safety in the cities where it is practiced, and even where guns are illegally possessed (according to city charters)

All it does is keep suckers like you disarmed... and easy prey to the criminal who pays no mind to the law.

Registration is indeed about taking responsibility.   Gun owners are as obliged as anyone else to obey the reasonable laws of our Constitutional republic.     

It is not reasonable.

[roamer_1]

Registration is about taking responsibility, not deprivation of your rights.  You are legally responsible for the use, transfer and disposition of your firearms.  Do you really disagree with that statement?   

HELL YES, I disagree. It ain't NONE of your damn business.

Registration is a reasonable tool by which the peaceable community can enforce that responsibility.   

It is neither reasonable nor efficacious, and FAILS your proposed result in EVERY American city where it already exists.

[Cyber Liberty]

It is not reasonable.

He's never going to agree to that.  It's like a Chess game, where you've built a good defense of your King.  There is no way for your opponent to win the game if he doesn't design and execute a plan to break that defense, and in this case, effective confiscation is impossible if the government can't get a listing of who has what.  The left will do ANYTHING to break down that defense, because until they do, forwarding their agenda of subjugation is impossible.

They'll lie to us with soft talk all day long if it forwards that goal.

[roamer_1]

The left will do ANYTHING to break down that defense, because until they do, forwarding their agenda of subjugation is impossible.

They'll lie to us with soft talk all day long if it forwards that goal.

That's right. But fat chance, hereabouts. Not going to happen.

2 MILLION people defend themselves annually with firearms. That is a right well worth keeping.

[INVAR]

Registration is about taking responsibility, not deprivation of your rights.

WE SAY IT IS DEPRIVATION.

You are legally responsible for the use, transfer and disposition of your firearms.  Do you really disagree with that statement?

We already are.  The fact you can move about freely, say the vile crap you spew and live your life without being behind barbed wire is due the fact that we have been responsible with our arsenals that are secret and unknown to vile communist gun grabbers like yourself.   

Registration is a reasonable tool by which the peaceable community can enforce that responsibility.   

NO. It's an act of war.  The "community" has no right or authority to know what tools I possess, how many, what kind or what I use them for.

All it needs to know is that I have the means and ability to resist any encroachment they attempt on my liberty.

[INVAR]

Of course, if you defy the law,  then you will be the legitimate target of law enforcement.  I predict you'll fold like a cheap tent.

Of course that is what you hope for, either our subjugation to your 'community's despotism under the color of 'law', or our deaths by the agents you will empower to do your evil bidding because we will not comply with tyranny.  You of course are too much of a chicken shit coward to come to our doors and try to force us to comply with your harebrained communist registration and gun confiscation scheme yourself.

Your move.  We stand ready to water the tree of liberty the moment you and yours decide to make that last mistake.

[Cyber Liberty]

We already are.  The fact you can move about freely, say the vile crap you spew and live your life without being behind barbed wire is due the fact that we have been responsible with our arsenals that are secret and unknown to vile communist gun grabbers like yourself.   

The thing about the barbed wire is, the grabbers fully expect to be on the outside, while you and I get the business end of it.  That's what the Commies thought as they were watching the Jews being shoved into the cattle cars in France, Germany and Poland.  Their turn to be at the business end of the bayonets came in due time, and so will the coward leftists' demanding our weapon registration/confiscation today.

They'll be more than happy to watch you and I be put in cages, but they're only forestalling their own imprisonment.  Hoping the crocodile eats them last, as it were.

[INVAR]

The thing about the barbed wire is, the grabbers fully expect to be on the outside, while you and I get the business end of it.  That's what the Commies thought as they were watching the Jews being shoved into the cattle cars in France, Germany and Poland.  Their turn to be at the business end of the bayonets came in due time, and so will the coward leftists' demanding our weapon registration/confiscation today.

They'll be more than happy to watch you and I be put in cages, but they're only forestalling their own imprisonment.  Hoping the crocodile eats them last, as it were.

Jazzhead is all about the imposition of his Commie-Liberal worldview of 'Community' by force.   He is also the first person to scream aloud and declare evil, bigotry and threat the moment the 'community' he loathes refuses to comply with the demands of 'his community'.

We are clearly reaching the time when we can no longer peaceably coexist with these meddlesome tyrants.

[XenaLee]

No one is seeking to "collect your weapons".  Take 'em to bed with you for all I care;  tell Mrs. CL to use the couch.   

Of course, if you defy the law,  then you will be the legitimate target of law enforcement.  I predict you'll fold like a cheap tent.

Projecting again?  Of course you are.  Because you can't even conceive pf characteristics and traits like guts, bravery, courage and valor.  The same traits, along with a fervent belief in God, that founded this nation you take advantage of.  The same qualities you apparently sneer at as you pontificate about the need for gun registration among responsible adults.  The very idea is an oxymoron.   If you're responsible, there's no need.... since the irresponsible and/or criminals sure as hell won't comply.  Get it?

But no... you can't get next to what we here in Texas call "True Grit".  And you never will.

[Cyber Liberty]

Jazzhead is all about the imposition of his Commie-Liberal worldview of 'Community' by force.   He is also the first person to scream aloud and declare evil, bigotry and threat the moment the 'community' he loathes refuses to comply with the demands of 'his community'.

We are clearly reaching the time when we can no longer peaceably coexist with these meddlesome tyrants.

It all depends on whether they can convince the big guys with the guns to go along with their scheme.  If they are required to do the dirty work of coming and getting them themselves, it'll never happen and their yapping voices will get farther and farther away.

[INVAR]

It all depends on whether they can convince the big guys with the guns to go along with their scheme.  If they are required to do the dirty work of coming and getting them themselves, it'll never happen and their yapping voices will get farther and farther away.

They are a lot further along in that effort and goal than we would like to acknowledge.

! No longer available

[Silver Pines]

@Victoria33 has better weather.

@Cyber Liberty
@Victoria33

We're having a lovely spring.  Today is 55 and rainy.   I'm holding on for dear life to every cool day.

[roamer_1]

I predict you'll fold like a cheap tent.

That, @Jazzhead , seems like perfectly allocuted projection.

[Jazzhead]

When 97% of the guns used in crimes are already illegally obtained . . .

Doesn't that factoid you cite indicate there's a problem?   Those "illegally obtained firearms" are the fruit of a wild west mentality that folks have the "right" to keep arsenals in secret, and buy and sell deadly weapons off the backs of trucks.  The goal of registration is assign each gun to the owner who is responsible for its use, transfer and disposition.   That documented legal responsibility will help dissuade folks from transferring their guns in secret to criminals. 

I am sick and tired of gun owners claiming they have the right to thumb their noses at the efforts of the people to get a handle on the epidemic of gun violence in this country.   

[roamer_1]

Projecting again? 

LOL! GMTA.

But no... you can't get next to what we here in Texas call "True Grit".  And you never will.

That's right. 

[roamer_1]

Doesn't that factoid you cite indicate there's a problem?   Those "illegally obtained firearms" are the fruit of a wild west mentality that folks have the "right" to keep arsenals in secret, and buy and sell deadly weapons off the backs of trucks.  The goal of registration is assign each gun to the owner who is responsible for its use, transfer and disposition.   That documented legal responsibility will help dissuade folks from transferring their guns in secret to criminals. 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Idiocy.

[GrouchoTex]

I am sick and tired of gun owners claiming they have the right to thumb their noses at the efforts of the people to get a handle on the epidemic of gun violence in this country.   

You know better than that.
Gun violence isn't near the number one cause of death in this country and you know it!
(Psst! Don't look now, but your credibility is shrinking).

[thackney]

Doesn't that factoid you cite indicate there's a problem?   Those "illegally obtained firearms" are the fruit of a wild west mentality that folks have the "right" to keep arsenals in secret, and buy and sell deadly weapons off the backs of trucks. The goal of registration is assign each gun to the owner who is responsible for its use, transfer and disposition.   That documented legal responsibility will help dissuade folks from transferring their guns in secret to criminals. 

I am sick and tired of gun owners claiming they have the right to thumb their noses at the efforts of the people to get a handle on the epidemic of gun violence in this country.   

@Jazzhead

Do you also claim the illegal drugs are the caused by doctor prescriptions to the law abiding?

Tell me about how vehicle registrations prevent auto thefts?

I'm sick and tired of big government proponents trying to use victims to push their agenda instead of deal with the actual problem, the 97% instead of the 3%.

But first, would you please support your previous claims concerning my question in post #114:

I would like to explore this claim.

Let us start with use.  How does registration of a firearm enforce responsible use of a firearm as compared to an unregistered firearm?  What has changed impacting use?

[Axeslinger]

I am sick and tired of gun owners claiming they have the right to thumb their noses at the efforts of the people to get a handle on the epidemic of gun violence in this country.   

@Jazzhead

So come and get them Skippy.  If you’re feeling froggy...go ahead and jump...or STFU.   Take your bullshit trolling job over to DU, you’ll be a hit there, I promise.

[Cyber Liberty]

They are a lot further along in that effort and goal than we would like to acknowledge.

! No longer available

Is that the idjit running for Sheriff somewhere?  Eff him, he's a laughingstock.  But you have a point, we need to watch these pukes every second.  So what else is new?

[Axeslinger]

Is that the idjit running for Sheriff somewhere?  Eff him, he's a laughingstock.  But you have a point, we need to watch these pukes every second.  So what else is new?

How about this for a point...20 or even 10 years ago, would any politician have dared to utter that?

[Cyber Liberty]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Idiocy.

Yeah, that sounded even more idiotic when it went down on paper, didn't it?  "Why, criminals will naturally just hand over their weapons when they're illegal." 
 

[driftdiver]

I am sick and tired of gun owners claiming they have the right to thumb their noses at the efforts of the people to get a handle on the epidemic of gun violence in this country.   

@Jazzhead

So dramatic and so wrong.

What epidemic?   Gun crime has held fairly steady for years.  We have the 31st highest rate of gun deaths in the world.    We're 14th in violent crime.   In both cases we are far lower then countries which have strict gun control.

Most murders take place in a very small % of population centers.   Seems to me that cities are far more dangerous than guns.  Perhaps we should outlaw cities?

[INVAR]

Doesn't that factoid you cite indicate there's a problem?

Only to communist-gun-grabbing-meddlesome-tyrants like you. 

Those "illegally obtained firearms" are the fruit of a wild west mentality that folks have the "right" to keep arsenals in secret, and buy and sell deadly weapons off the backs of trucks.

YUP.  And we're gonna continue to keep doing so, and keep our 'wild west mentality' alive and well.  The only way you are going to stop it - is to kill us.  Well, actually you will have to empower the government's goons to do it for you because you are a coward that won't do what you advocate yourself.   You hide behind the skirt of the courts and the government to do your evil bidding for you, like all tyrants do.
 

The goal of registration is assign each gun to the owner who is responsible for its use, transfer and disposition. 

Your goal is confiscation, and this tyrannical attempt to register our weapons is specifically for that purpose - regardless of what you otherwise claim.  We will not comply.  F**K your "goal".

That documented legal responsibility will help dissuade folks from transferring their guns in secret to criminals.

Right, because criminals always reveal their intents to others in advance.

I am sick and tired of gun owners claiming they have the right to thumb their noses at the efforts of the people to get a handle on the epidemic of gun violence in this country.   

Too damn bad.  You're going to have to instigate a level of epidemic gun violent bloodshed in this country by agents of the state in order to get what you want.

[Cyber Liberty]

How about this for a point...20 or even 10 years ago, would any politician have dared to utter that?

Sure.  Diane Feinstein.  There have been politicians freaking out about guns my whole life, and I just turned 60.

[driftdiver]

Is that the idjit running for Sheriff somewhere?  Eff him, he's a laughingstock.  But you have a point, we need to watch these pukes every second.  So what else is new?

@Cyber Liberty
Notice how his audience laughs about killing people.