Author Topic: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’  (Read 58453 times)

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #425 on: April 01, 2018, 04:44:09 pm »
...

Today is not a day of circle-arguments for me, so I won't be around much.

Ditto.  Just not in the mood.

Added:  Excellent post, @Meldrew, and happy Easter to you and @Jazzhead.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 04:48:06 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #426 on: April 01, 2018, 04:54:34 pm »
Happy Easter!

Thank  you for the awesome post, @Meldrew!  You are a Gentleman and a Scholar, with the patience of a Saint.  I wish you and yours a Happy Passover and a blessed Easter!
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #427 on: April 01, 2018, 05:03:28 pm »
@Jazzhead

Happy Easter!

And a joyous Easter to you too, @Meldrew  !   

 
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #428 on: April 01, 2018, 05:15:26 pm »
The right (to individual self defense) is a natural right;  the issue is whether the Constitution protects that right vis a vis the federal government.   

Evidence enough to prove that the words 'Shall not be infringed" do not mean what they say in the minds of people like you who are intent on redefining those words to mean *Can be infringed as long as we say it is reasonable*.

If government will not protect our rights because clever tyrants argue successfully that rights are merely government-granted privileges, you will have successfully argued that the covenant whereby we consent to be governed is null and void.

At which point, we are no longer obligated to obey ANYTHING that the federal government demands, because all it will have is guns their agents will put to our heads to force compliance - and it will have to be empowered to kill those who refuse to surrender to being subjugated to it's authority.

At which point, it's game on - to water and fertilize the Tree you people are attempting to uproot.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Cyber Liberty

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For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #430 on: April 01, 2018, 08:31:49 pm »
One more strong justification for licensing and registering knives.

When will we hear calls to do that from those who wish to do the same with guns?  Knives kill far more people.

Danger in London: Shock report finds city's murder rate topped NYC's as killers turn to knives
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/01/london-murder-rate-beats-new-york-for-month-as-stabbings-surge.html
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #431 on: April 02, 2018, 12:58:38 pm »
The only people that think Heller needs to be "codified" and that the 2A is flawed are Liberals.

And once again they are the extreme minority opinion in the U.S. trying to use the courts to force their Marxist views on the majority of the country.

The yearly increase in NICS background checks over the previous year for like almost 8 years shows just how in the minority views like the anti 2A one continually expressed here really is.

Hence the reason they want to turn to the courts to bypass the Constitution yet again.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #432 on: April 02, 2018, 04:14:38 pm »
The only people that think Heller needs to be "codified" and that the 2A is flawed are Liberals.

And once again they are the extreme minority opinion in the U.S. trying to use the courts to force their Marxist views on the majority of the country.

The yearly increase in NICS background checks over the previous year for like almost 8 years shows just how in the minority views like the anti 2A one continually expressed here really is.

Hence the reason they want to turn to the courts to bypass the Constitution yet again.

A case of willful blindness here.   The same Court that confirmed the 2A's protection of your individual right can take it away come 2020 by adopting Stevens' dissenting opinion that the protected right pertains only to militia-type activities.  Stevens declares FLATLY that no individual RKBA is protected by the 2A.

And when he wrote that, he got three of his colleagues to agree with him.

It is far better to recognize squarely the flaw in the 2A and the fragility of the Heller ruling by acting now, while we still can, to codify it.    The peoples' elected representative must confirm the Heller ruling and determine the appropriate level of scrutiny.   Doing so is the best way to prevent disaster.   
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #433 on: April 02, 2018, 04:38:33 pm »
A case of willful blindness here.  The same Court that confirmed the 2A's protection of your individual right can take it away

The ONLY willful blindness here is from your anti-Gun Marxist/Statist pals and tyranny advocates like you.  NO court, no legislature or no ruler can infringe upon our inalienable rights.  They cannot take any of our 'Rights' away.  Our Rights do not come from the confirmation of some judge in a black robe.  Nor can they be denied or rescinded by the same. Neither can the whole people decide that they want them done away with.  They remain, inviolable, immutable and exist whether you like them or not.

You can try by arming your agents to put guns to our heads to force compliance with your tyrannical schemes of registration and insurance requirements.  All you will have done is to render a Right into a government-granted privilege, which makes your government illegitimate.   The moment that happens - we will refuse and resist you and you will have declared war on this people and it will be time to water the tree of liberty.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline the_doc

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #434 on: April 02, 2018, 04:50:33 pm »
@Wingnut
@aligncare
@Jazzhead
The language is not flawed.   People these days just don't understand the language.

You nailed it, Wingnut.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #435 on: April 02, 2018, 05:01:26 pm »
@Wingnut
@aligncare
@Jazzhead
You nailed it, Wingnut.

I think they understand the language just fine.  Not to rap on all the lawyers, but their specialty is teasing whatever meaning they want from a set of words, no matter how badly the meanings must be twisted to do so.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #436 on: April 02, 2018, 05:15:00 pm »
The ONLY willful blindness here is from your anti-Gun Marxist/Statist pals and tyranny advocates like you.  NO court, no legislature or no ruler can infringe upon our inalienable rights.  They cannot take any of our 'Rights' away.  Our Rights do not come from the confirmation of some judge in a black robe.  Nor can they be denied or rescinded by the same. Neither can the whole people decide that they want them done away with.  They remain, inviolable, immutable and exist whether you like them or not.

You can try by arming your agents to put guns to our heads to force compliance with your tyrannical schemes of registration and insurance requirements.  All you will have done is to render a Right into a government-granted privilege, which makes your government illegitimate.   The moment that happens - we will refuse and resist you and you will have declared war on this people and it will be time to water the tree of liberty.

Oh... but haven't you heard?   The minute we stand armed in opposition of any fascist attempt to disarm us.... they plan to send in the UN to control and/or eliminate us.  (per Alex Jones)
No quarter given to the enemy within...ever.

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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #437 on: April 02, 2018, 05:18:38 pm »
NO court, no legislature or no ruler can infringe upon our inalienable rights. 

They sure as hell can.  Don't be a fool.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #438 on: April 02, 2018, 05:19:27 pm »
Oh... but haven't you heard?   The minute we stand armed in opposition of any fascist attempt to disarm us.... they plan to send in the UN to control and/or eliminate us.  (per Alex Jones)

This is idiotic.  *****rollingeyes*****
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #439 on: April 02, 2018, 05:20:44 pm »
The predicate clause makes the right unclear in the context of the individual right to ordinary self defense.  It took 200 years for the SCOTUS to find such an individual right.   It is not merely a question of misinterpretation - the language itself has always been flawed.   

It's not the predicate clause. That's 100% perfectly clear.  The only error is the second, ungrammatical, comma.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #440 on: April 02, 2018, 05:29:30 pm »
Oh... but haven't you heard?   The minute we stand armed in opposition of any fascist attempt to disarm us.... they plan to send in the UN to control and/or eliminate us.  (per Alex Jones)

I don't listen to the king of tinfoil or pay him any regard.

But the fact is, any attempt to do what our resident Leftist has suggested will result in overt refusal to comply with any of it should morons in power take him up on it.  And then of course resistance to any efforts made to enforce it.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the lessons of history to know that advocates of tyranny and a state that imposes it under the guise of public safety and security - will use whatever force it can muster to eradicate those whom they have decided are a threat to the security of the state.

At which point this government will have made itself an enemy of liberty and the people who refuse to surrender it.  Thus the only way to maintain control over us and our wealth, property and being - is to kill by extreme prejudice those whom are declared an enemy of the state.  Then it is game on and this nation will look just like Venezuela or parts of Mexico.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #441 on: April 02, 2018, 05:34:50 pm »
I don't listen to the king of tinfoil or pay him any regard.

But the fact is, any attempt to do what our resident Leftist has suggested will result in overt refusal to comply with any of it should morons in power take him up on it.  And then of course resistance to any efforts made to enforce it.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the lessons of history to know that advocates of tyranny and a state that imposes it under the guise of public safety and security - will use whatever force it can muster to eradicate those whom they have decided are a threat to the security of the state.

At which point this government will have made itself an enemy of liberty and the people who refuse to surrender it.  Thus the only way to maintain control over us and our wealth, property and being - is to kill by extreme prejudice those whom are declared an enemy of the state.  Then it is game on and this nation will look just like Venezuela or parts of Mexico.

Venezuela would be a perfect example of gov-gone-crazy with power over the unarmed populace.  Arresting and/or shooting people that are desperate for food and willing to risk death to feed their families.  And the lawless or rather, anti-law leftist anarchists, will be right there pushing for the elimination of all of those pesky gun-owners.  Hell, the Bill Ayers crowd was planning for it way back in the 60's.  They may yet get their moist-dream come true.  But... it won't turn out like they planned.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #442 on: April 02, 2018, 05:36:24 pm »
They sure as hell can.  Don't be a fool.

Not in practice.  They will get widespread non-compliance.  This is something Judges and Lawyers can't seem to get their minds around, and refuse to believe:  People will simply refuse to comply with laws they think are unjust.  Passing a law or ordering something from a bench is one thing, forcing compliance is quite another. 

I really don't expect to convince you of the truth of my words, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #443 on: April 02, 2018, 05:38:36 pm »
It's not the predicate clause. That's 100% perfectly clear.  The only error is the second, ungrammatical, comma.

Ungrammatical by 21st century rules.  It's like the Oxford Comma, they're still fighting a war over that.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #444 on: April 02, 2018, 05:42:22 pm »
They sure as hell can.  Don't be a fool.

No they cannot.

Not without a bloodbath that you will have helped make possible.

You just have to ask yourself how many thousands or millions of Americans you are willing to kill using armed divisions and militarized agents to enforce your ideas upon us.

Neither you or the government have the power to infringe upon a right and turn it into a government-granted privilege you deem *reasonable*.  Not without putting guns to our heads to make it so.

At which point - you and the government you empower to do as you advocate, will have declared yourselves a tyrannical enemy that will require armed resistance, as the Founders anticipated would be necessary given human nature and history.

Which is why we have the inalienable, immutable and un-infringable right to keep and bear arms in the first place.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #445 on: April 02, 2018, 05:45:43 pm »
This is idiotic.  *****rollingeyes*****

Well.... pretty much everything you spew here is not just idiotic, but asinine leftist BS.  But who's counting?

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You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #446 on: April 02, 2018, 05:57:07 pm »
They sure as hell can.  Don't be a fool.

No, in fact, they cannot. The right is immutable. The government's legitimate job is to preserve and uphold the right.

To do otherwise is force under the color of law, abrogating their own authority.

CAN they? They can try.

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #447 on: April 02, 2018, 05:59:07 pm »
I don't listen to the king of tinfoil or pay him any regard.

I don't listen to him either, but since I put absolutely NOTHING past the radical leftists in this country.... I wouldn't doubt that it might be one of their backup plans.  Slightly off topic... my friend in Houston hasn't seen any UN trucks or vehicles since Trump became president.  Before that, he saw them a lot.  Wonder why?   :whistle:

Quote
But the fact is, any attempt to do what our resident Leftist has suggested will result in overt refusal to comply with any of it should morons in power take him up on it.  And then of course resistance to any efforts made to enforce it.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the lessons of history to know that advocates of tyranny and a state that imposes it under the guise of public safety and security - will use whatever force it can muster to eradicate those whom they have decided are a threat to the security of the state.

I concur.  All of my friends, family and associates concur, as well (I can speak for them on this since we have discussed it many times).

Quote
At which point this government will have made itself an enemy of liberty and the people who refuse to surrender it.  Thus the only way to maintain control over us and our wealth, property and being - is to kill by extreme prejudice those whom are declared an enemy of the state.  Then it is game on and this nation will look just like Venezuela or parts of Mexico.

And make no mistake.... the radical leftists like Obama, (Soros & Co.), and pretty much every Democrat I can think of, would make that move when they regain power in the White House and Congress.  They're getting very impatient... and they won't want to take a chance that another "Trump" may get in the WH again, foiling their agenda.


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You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out of it.

Offline the_doc

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #448 on: April 02, 2018, 06:14:23 pm »
I think they understand the language just fine.  Not to rap on all the lawyers, but their specialty is teasing whatever meaning they want from a set of words, no matter how badly the meanings must be twisted to do so.

Yeah, as I have said before, there are some good guys in the legal profession, but the 99% are giving the 1% a bad reputation.

The stunning thing about this controversy is that the meaning of the 2nd Amendment is crystal clear if you consider the historical context.

***

There is an important axiom of hermeneutics:  Context determines meaning.  Unfortunately, the liberals use this axiom in a dishonestly, disrespectfully stupid way.  They say that the final clause of the Amendment is interpreted in the light of the introductory clause, and they point out [correctly] that the first clause is emphasizing a collective right.  That's fine.  But the liberals go on to claim that this near context of the final clause narrows the final clause so as to render it as NOT affirming in any legally useful way an UNALIENABLE INDIVIDUAL right. 

This supposedly gives THEM the RIGHT to take away our guns if they want to do so.  (Well, how's that for an unalienable right?) They are delighted to mock the idea of a modern-day militia and to use this mockery to take away our unalienable rights to self defense.  But the truth is, they are performing this legal sleight-of-hand precisely because they are afraid of a modern counterpart of a militia being able to block their murderous Marxist revolution--which is the anti-democratic end game of a Marxist takeover.   

Make no mistake about it, the Marxists want guys like us dead.   A "progressive" college professor actually informed me that he and his ilk were surely going to kill me.  When we grasp this, we need to notice that the Marxists are overruling the entire 2nd Amendment--overruling BOTH clauses.  That, in turn, proves that their hermeneutic is phony.  Their position is diametrically opposed to the most important context of all--the historical context of the 2nd Amendment.

See Eugene Volokh's research on the legal documents of the period.  The Framers were following the rhetorical tradition of their own day.  They were introducing their Constitutional affirmation of an individual right to self defense by citing one of perhaps many corollary benefits of that legal doctrine of self defense presented in the dramatic final clause.  In other words, the entire Amendment is definitely, even fiercely upholding the individual right.

We must not budge an inch.  We must not make unnecessary and therefore counterproductive concessions to liberals, including even "Republicans" like that reprobate John Paul Stevens.  We must stop the ongoing and worsening infringements--no matter what form they take.  Our arguments must openly defy those who say we need to "clarify" a Constitutional right to bear arms.  The SCOTUS has already "clarified" it--by simply noticing and proclaiming that the individual right is integral to the 2nd Amendment.       

The more I have mused over the 2nd Amendment, the more I am inclined to say it is perhaps the most important Amendment in the entire Bill of Rights.  The more the political war rages, the more prepared we have to be for its escalation.   

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Former Supreme Court justice: ‘Repeal the Second Amendment’
« Reply #449 on: April 02, 2018, 06:15:33 pm »
No they cannot.

Not without a bloodbath that you will have helped make possible.

You just have to ask yourself how many thousands or millions of Americans you are willing to kill using armed divisions and militarized agents to enforce your ideas upon us.

Neither you or the government have the power to infringe upon a right and turn it into a government-granted privilege you deem *reasonable*.  Not without putting guns to our heads to make it so.

At which point - you and the government you empower to do as you advocate, will have declared yourselves a tyrannical enemy that will require armed resistance, as the Founders anticipated would be necessary given human nature and history.

Which is why we have the inalienable, immutable and un-infringable right to keep and bear arms in the first place.

This, too, is idiotic.   What is being suggested is merely that you take responsibility.   For that you advocate a bloodbath?
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