Author Topic: BREAKING>> Active Shooter Florida High School... Developing... Multiple victims...  (Read 27776 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Wow Joe!  That is like the post of the decade right there.  God bless you my friend! @Smokin Joe
@mrpotatohead  Thanks! Nay God Bless You and Yours as well!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Lando Lincoln

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@Smokin Joe

Correct.  When placed in proper time perspective, the overall impact of incremental erosion of our society and civility as a whole is stunning.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Of this I can speak with experience, yes many children are misdiagnosed and drugged by shysters and lazy so called professionals. But ADD/ADHD is real, and there are children that are greatly assisted by Ritalin, not to help the teacher or it shouldn't be, but as a tool to help the child train themselves when it is used correctly. My son was identified as ADHD when he was in first grade by one of the true professionals working in the field. He prescribed Ritalin and counseling and we used Ritalin only on his worst days at school, never at home. As ADHD children grow they learn to control their impulses and are usually very intelligent and talented. I never agreed nor do I now with drugging a child to control them.
What did parents, teachers and children do, before Ritalin?

Somehow before Ritalin, means and methods existed, for them to "they learn to control their impulses."
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Offline Sanguine

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What did parents, teachers and children do, before Ritalin?

Somehow before Ritalin, means and methods existed, for them to "they learn to control their impulses."

What did they do before Ritalin?  Well, boys dropped out and went to work in construction.  (Or, whatever) 

Offline Smokin Joe

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Here is what we need to be addressing here.  What do you do when a threat presents itself at a school?  Everything else is a total waste of time IMHO.

I don't care what motivates the shooter(s) at that point. All I want to do is stop them from doing what they are intent on doing!
The preventative mechanisms to foil the shooter were in place. They failed.
Mental health failed.
The school/LEO interface failed (by government decree).
The "OMG! Look at this facebook page!" LEO interface failed.
Law enforcement dropped the ball.
The shooter (former student) gained access to the school even though they were not enrolled, and had no legitimate purpose there.
The armed guard was not even aware (allegedly) of the presence of the person in the school.

Short of methods which would be considered a gateway to tyranny, from facial id software, to RFID to other means beyond just having metal detectors which will inevitably result in false positives, or TSA style monitoring of the student body, why not just abolish these warehouses of children and free daycare centers and shift to online interactive education for all but those few classes which require hands on curricula?  (Chem lab, PE, shop/vocational classes).

If you limit ingress/egress to a physical facility all you have done is bottleneck any avenues of approach and escape for possible victims, which means multiple, and even single shooters could have a field day.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who wants to use human nature against humans and try to anticipate how they could use human nature to work in favor of a high body count. Be diabolical. Anticipate how crowd movement could be used against the people in the crowd. Then, don't play into those scenarios, and do not construct physical barriers which make them possible, if not outright probable. If you can 'wargame' it, some sick bastard can too, and it is only a matter of time until someone with a psychotic bent does exactly that.

Remember, in the end, all this is merely a remedy for a more serious problem.

This event is pus draining from a festering cultural wound. Treating the underlying infection is the cure, not a band aid. If the numerous mechanisms in place to prevent this did not, will more mechanisms make anything safer? Or do they just provide an illusion of being safe?
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

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Similarly, those calling for single access points for schools here may not have considered the ramifications of funneling hundreds or even a couple thousand students through that access point simultaneously as school starts or lets out, or worse yet, in an emergency. Even gophers have enough sense to have a back door.
My first High School (not in ND, needless to say) was only 1400 students, but all but one door had been chained and locked shut to limit access to the building during ongoing race riots, in direct and conspicuous violation of fire codes. That's when the bomb threats started coming in.
Despite that unrest (late '60s/early'70s), there were no mass shootings.

What changed, culturally? Both sides in that era had been raised in families and even schools where prayer started the day, along with The Pledge of Allegiance. Violence on television and even in the movies (movies were rated 'X' for violence, not just sexual content and profanity--the "TV MA" rating group today would have qualified) was not graphic, life was considered sacred, and every child was at least exposed to the idea of a God who  would ultimately judge their actions. For those who would argue that there were no AR-15s around, I will only state that a M1 carbine was a popular rifle, lightweight, and came with 30 round magazines, too. IOW, while the tools were not so intimidating in appearance as today's black sporting rifles, they were just as capable at ranges inside 100 yards. But those who had exposure to firearms, had had so from fathers, uncles, and others who had been in or close to combat, be it WWII or Korea, or even WWI, men who were men of peace because they had been men at war. The concepts of Chivalry (OMG! SEXISM!) and Honor were still prized in a culture that believed all were equal in the eyes of God. And as for 'gun control', the Form 4473 was still new, and most guns in private hands had been purchased, often by mail order, without background checks, no NICS, no databases, only at the discretion of the seller, and military surplus arms were quite common. Some pre-NFA (1934) firearms were still floating around, just not so commonly seen. Mass shootings were still rare outside of warfare (why the St. Valentine's Day Massacre was such a headline-getter) and commonly linked to organized crime.

The idea of "senseless killing" was something fresh in the minds of those who had been in WWII; millions had died in the death camps and massacres in Europe and Asia, but not something which fit in in America. If you were going to risk the electric chair, the rope, the gas chamber, or the firing squad, you were going to have a solid reason for wanting someone dead. Just killing someone for no reason that you didn't know wasn't a consideration, much less women and children.

Since then, the Marxists in our society have been on a serious campaign to not only eliminate The Almighty from our zeitgeist, but to eliminate the concepts of chivalry, honor, integrity, and fundamental morality as well. Unfortunately, they have been wildly successful at sowing the seeds of that libertine self-destruction, and continue to do so to this day. More children, our own children, will never see the light of day, not at the hands of some enemy, but because of a slaughter proclaimed a 'right' to be free of the responsibility to raise them, something abdicated to the ministrations of a government interested in control of the masses, not the quality of the outcome.

What we are seeing is not the result of newer and more improved hardware--the tools of the infantryman in WWII were fully adequate to the task of taking lives, and doing so in large numbers and even from a distance--it is a result of a sickness imposed on our culture through media exposure to evil and the exclusion of the very universal concepts that made this country great. 

If we truly want to "Make America Great Again" it is time to reconsider the road we are on.
We have people howling about school shootings, but this is just a symptom, not the malady.

In my youth the following were generally unthinkable:

Killing someone for no reason, especially a bunch of people.
Beating your wife/kid/dog/horse. The last three could be disciplined, but special stigma was attached to anyone who beat his wife (men did not strike ladies), or who excessively harmed the last three. Corporal punishment was commonplace, but limited in intensity, and administered with a dispassionate, often reluctant mien (as opposed to a mean mien).

Torture of animals or people.

Rape (still had the death penalty as a possibility when I was a kid, and that isn't counting what would happen if the family caught the perp first).

Abortion.

Drugs for recreational use, especially hard drugs, IV drugs.
(The big three culturally acceptable drugs were coffee, tobacco, and alcohol, in moderation, and some folks didn't use any of them.)
 
Letting anyone come in your home and take your children under any pretense.

Letting anyone routinely monitor your private communications, be they business or personal.

Harming a child (not disciplining, not corporal punishment, but serious physical harm or mental torture), or, for that matter, mistreating an animal. Varmints and sick/injured animals were dispatched promptly.

Hitting a woman, except in the most unusual circumstance of self-defense.

Placing the lives of wild animals above the lives or livelihoods of people, but not to include killing them for no reason.

Wasting any resource (a holdover from the Great Depression, and even leaner times before that).

Stealing.

Cussing in public, but especially in front of women (the 'mixed company' taboo--in front of children was considered socially unacceptable as well).

Sexual Promiscuity or Homosexuality. (We knew of it, it existed, but it was not in evidence, much less pouring out of television sets into living rooms across the country). Far from being celebrated, both were spoken of with derision and not in front of the children.

To not respect our elders. (This is a fundamental fabrication of the Marxists who want, ultimately, State control of children, in that it disrupts cultural continuity.

From the creation of the 'generation gap' to labeling each successive generation (or decade) as some letter or with a name to make people think there is no common and linking thread, but instead some sort of adversarial relationship between youth and those older, right down to modifying fundamental curricula to the point parents can't even help children with homework, is all designed to disrupt the ordinary cultural flow which binds a people together, and in this case, the conveyance of the concepts of Liberty, responsibility, and morality, which form the essence of our culture.
Leaving successive generations without a cultural rudder or a moral compass makes them vulnerable to exploitation, especially when the values which are to be summarily discarded are those which are the fundamental concepts of an entire republic and way of life.)

Sex education in any formal context before tenth grade health class. Puberty is distracting enough, but by focusing attention on sex at an early age, not only are children deprived of childhood, but taught to think of each other not in terms of person and personality, but as potential sexual partners first. This is exactly the opposite of the whole idea of not being 'sex objects' because it makes everyone one (or rejected as one) and takes the focus off of personal development and puts it on the rut. While there are those who proclaim it "liberating", in actuality, it is dehumanizing and takes the focus off of personality development and places it on more superficial objectification.

It isn't hard to see that many of the stated goals of those who would change our society (and have done so) are in direct conflict with other stated goals, but the end game in all this confusion is the destruction of the culture which stepped into two world wars and ended them, one which has survived its hard knocks, and come out on top. Keeping in mind that the Marxists and others who would 'rule the world' view their aims with the religious fervor many Americans used to view The Almighty with, there will be no lack of evil influence on our culture.

Had I been told in 1965 that the day would come when tobacco was all but banned, but marijuana was being asserted to be legal (as a government revenue generator) I would have scoffed at such dystopian fiction. After watching people in shock (from an event or injury) reach for a cigarette to help get a grip or find relief, and being subsequently told that there were no beneficial effects of tobacco (peripheral vasoconstrictor which offsets shock), I would have laughed. Yet here we are.

If I had been told that the promiscuity which populated Huxley's Brave New World would become reality, and more, that it would be celebrated in culture, song, and media, and proclaimed protected by law, even to ignore and foster the spread of a deadly disease, I would have scoffed, claiming that cooler heads would prevail.

If I had been told that language I never heard my parents use would become so commonplace as to pour from my TV, I would have dismissed the teller as 'nuts'.

And had I been told that this country would eventually rack up a body count of murdered babies that would exceed any nation's death camps of WWII or purges, I would have believed it impossible.

Yet, here we are.

And if someone wants to blame a piece of hardware for the lunatic actions of a person produced by such a culture, perhaps it is because it is easier to put a bandage on the boil than to admit the festering corruption that produced it. Our society has become gravely ill, and this shooter is just one symptom.

At every level, from mental health, to disciplinary, to communications between the school and LEOs, to the inaction of LEOs when the information was there, the system that claims if we just give up one more right it will be enough (this time, until the mechanisms in place fail again), failed to prevent this event.

Imposition of control from outside is no solution, only a band aid. Curing the cultural rot that has taken root is the only way to prevent such events in the future, to make them unthinkable acts. We are a long way from that, especially if we won't even diagnose the infection. It is the ultimate abdication of responsibility to blame the tool, rather than the person that wielded it, and the culture that produced that person.

Outstanding!
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Bigun

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The preventative mechanisms to foil the shooter were in place. They failed.
Mental health failed.
The school/LEO interface failed (by government decree).
The "OMG! Look at this facebook page!" LEO interface failed.
Law enforcement dropped the ball.
The shooter (former student) gained access to the school even though they were not enrolled, and had no legitimate purpose there.
The armed guard was not even aware (allegedly) of the presence of the person in the school.

Short of methods which would be considered a gateway to tyranny, from facial id software, to RFID to other means beyond just having metal detectors which will inevitably result in false positives, or TSA style monitoring of the student body, why not just abolish these warehouses of children and free daycare centers and shift to online interactive education for all but those few classes which require hands on curricula?  (Chem lab, PE, shop/vocational classes).

If you limit ingress/egress to a physical facility all you have done is bottleneck any avenues of approach and escape for possible victims, which means multiple, and even single shooters could have a field day.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who wants to use human nature against humans and try to anticipate how they could use human nature to work in favor of a high body count. Be diabolical. Anticipate how crowd movement could be used against the people in the crowd. Then, don't play into those scenarios, and do not construct physical barriers which make them possible, if not outright probable. If you can 'wargame' it, some sick bastard can too, and it is only a matter of time until someone with a psychotic bent does exactly that.

Remember, in the end, all this is merely a remedy for a more serious problem.

This event is pus draining from a festering cultural wound. Treating the underlying infection is the cure, not a band aid. If the numerous mechanisms in place to prevent this did not, will more mechanisms make anything safer? Or do they just provide an illusion of being safe?

@Smokin Joe

What little preventive mechanisms there were had ZERO chance of success because they were so woefully inadequate!  One uniformed armed security guard at a campus with more than 4000 people present is a sick joke!   

I'm not one of those who has advocated creating bottlenecks which only serve to concentrate targets!  What I'm saying is that there needs to be enough armed people on campus at all times to deal with a potential threat and most of them need to be unknown to the student body!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 09:03:43 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Cyber Liberty

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@Smokin Joe

What little preventive mechanisms there were had ZERO chance of success because they were so woefully inadequate!  One uniformed armed security guard at a campus with more than 4000 people present is a sick joke!   

I'm not one of those who has advocated creating bottlenecks which only serve to concentrate targets!  What I'm saying is that there needs to be enough armed people on campus at all times to deal with a potential threat and most of them need to be unknown to the student body!


I agree.  I love surprises.  I think the bad guys should always be surprised, which is why I carry concealed.
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Offline mountaineer

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I think the bad guys should always be surprised, which is why I carry concealed.
Ditto.

Offline Smokin Joe

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What did parents, teachers and children do, before Ritalin?

Somehow before Ritalin, means and methods existed, for them to "they learn to control their impulses."
What ADHD? It didn't even have an acronym.
Some kids were just 'busy'. and inventive parents or teachers found ways to keep little Johnny or Janie busy. That requires effort, inventiveness, and attention to what interests a child. Children commonly learned to cope and focus, although not all persons who genuinely have ADHD can.

Recess/play involved vigorous activity, often with minimal supervision, occasional physical conflict, abundant torn out knees in pants and abraded skin by the acre. Helicopter parenting, like the helicopter, was relatively uncommon. Rural (especially farm) kids always had plenty of diverse activities to engage in (lots to do--AKA: chores).

We had a cup of coffee in the morning (another stimulant that promotes focus), got bored with the slower stuff in school, but knew we'd face the track-mounted nun with her WMD (weapon of metacarpal destruction) if we went too far, or the principal with his 'board of education'--a device which was used, and not just a wall ornament. That paled in comparison to the trouble we'd be in when we got home--and our parents would find out--the school would call them, in an era when social services was in relative infancy and not in a hurry to cry "Abuse!" and take children away when they felt the impact of a hand or switch on their bottom.  All of that promoted self-discipline. Situations of corporal excess were often dealt with by extended family. Limits were established, and punishment meted in a way that had an impact.
We played outside if the weather permitted (you'd be surprised what that means in different regions, we've had to tell the kids to get off the bicycle and put their hat and gloves on when it was -20 out).

We were also taught by elders we respected, were taught to grant that respect by our elders, and taught those rules of civility applied to everyone, even parents and teachers. But that was a different culture, where the same rules were consistent from home to school, to church, wherever you went, not the sort of confusion that comes from trying to impose common core math on what should have been simple arithmetic.

Much of what we learned was by rote: (...two times two is four, three times two is six....), the right answer was the right answer, and confusion levels were much, much lower.

While there are cases of ADHD (I have met a couple of folks who genuinely had this, and interacting with them in a professional setting was a challenge, but involved realizing what was going on (job went long, his meds ran out, his doctor was 1000 miles away) and steering the conversation back on topic. Not only did that work, but the chap was one of the best Directional Drillers I have ever worked with. But to give children that sort of attention requires that first, the genuine ADHD cases be sorted from disciplinary/behaviour issues, and that there be the ability to deal with both situations. That takes effort and time, which frankly, 'one size fits all' education is not geared to provide. It is far easier to medicate even the borderline cases and even those who just won't behave than deal with them separately and enforce discipline when that is what is needed. (Besides, IIRC, there is extra funding for any 'special needs' kids, by the head, of course).

Again, I know there are people who genuinely have this condition, but question whether it is overdiagnosed as a path of least resistance, especially with school age children. After observing the behaviour of three generations of kids/grandkids/great grandkids, some are just more active and inquisitive than others, and all go through phases where their attention spans are short. Even with that in mind, our children are increasingly  routinely stimulated with media and entertainment which promotes a short attention span, a situation which demands instantaneous sensory gratification and not the protracted focus needed to delve in depth into any project.


How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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@Smokin Joe

What little preventive mechanisms there were had ZERO chance of success because they were so woefully inadequate!  One uniformed armed security guard at a campus with more than 4000 people present is a sick joke!   

I'm not one of those who has advocated creating bottlenecks which only serve to concentrate targets!  What I'm saying is that there needs to be enough armed people on campus at all times to deal with a potential threat and most of them need to be unknown to the student body!

The preventative mechanisms present were not engaged.

The school didn't notify anyone of the problems they had had with him. There is a policy against that.

The online stuff was reported, and it even stated intent serious enough to be actionable, but no one pursued the information.

The mental health aspects, including medication, went unreported (patient privacy, and all that).

The puzzle pieces were there, but no one put the pieces together until after the fact.
This kid could have had someone skywrite his intentions but no one looked up.

Prevention failed.

Being armed is just the ability to react to the developing crime; it isn't prevention, it's mitigation.
That said, it's far better than nothing, and I'm all for it. Where is the "If it saves just one life" crowd on that?
Because the ability to stop the crime in progress will.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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I agree.  I love surprises.  I think the bad guys should always be surprised, which is why I carry concealed.
Actually, I hate surprises. They are almost always bad news.

But If I have to bring out my weapon, I won't be the one surprised by it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Actually, I hate surprises. They are almost always bad news.

But If I have to bring out my weapon, I won't be the one surprised by it.

I should amend that:  I love dishing out surprises.  That's why Mrs. Liberty's .380 is a pretty little pink thing.  Surprise!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 10:48:11 pm by Cyber Liberty »
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What did they do before Ritalin?  Well, boys dropped out and went to work in construction.  (Or, whatever)
Or the principal and teacher beat the carp out of them with paddles until the kid stopped going to school. Damn few teachers and administrators were smart enough to recognize that most of those children were way above the curve in intelligence and were bored to distraction. Another thing that I recall that teachers did with those students, especially in Catholic schools, was tie them to their chairs and tape their mouths shut. Boy that sure taught them!

Those that haven't lived with the situation, had a child with it , really haven't got a clue.

@Sanguine
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 04:23:30 am by GtHawk »

Offline truth_seeker

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While I was in Elem. & HS,, many male teachers were WWII vets. They calmly but firmly carried themselves with the air of authority.

In HS the Vice Principal meted out punishment, with the well-known paddle. For any fight, BOTH sides got the paddle.

Promoting kids one grade forward, was used to provide a greater challenge.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Sanguine

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Or the principal and teacher beat the carp out of them with paddles until the kid stopped going to school. Damn few teachers and administrators were smart enough to recognize that most of those children were way above the curve in intelligence and were bored to distraction. Another thing that I recall that teachers did with those students, especially in Catholic schools, was tie them to their chairs and tape their mouths shut. Boy that sure taught them!

Those that haven't lived with the situation, had a child with it , really haven't got a clue.

@Sanguine

Oh, I know.  I completely agree.

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Or the principal and teacher beat the carp out of them with paddles until the kid stopped going to school. Damn few teachers and administrators were smart enough to recognize that most of those children were way above the curve in intelligence and were bored to distraction. Another thing that I recall that teachers did with those students, especially in Catholic schools, was tie them to their chairs and tape their mouths shut. Boy that sure taught them!

Those that haven't lived with the situation, had a child with it , really haven't got a clue.

@Sanguine

Yeah! I was one of them and I'll take the paddlings over being drugged any time! 
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline driftdiver

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Yeah! I was one of them and I'll take the paddlings over being drugged any time!

@Bigun
Oh I dunno, the one time in my life I had good drugs ( I was in the hospital), it made all the lady nurses extremely hot.   They could paddle me anytime.
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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@Bigun
Oh I dunno, the one time in my life I had good drugs ( I was in the hospital), it made all the lady nurses extremely hot.   They could paddle me anytime.

Too bad.  They weren't about to paddle you because you wanted it too much. :laugh:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Online Bigun

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Oh I dunno, the one time in my life I had good drugs ( I was in the hospital), it made all the lady nurses extremely hot.   They could paddle me anytime.

@driftdiver

Yeah!  It sucks!  When you don't want a paddling they are a dime a dozen!  When you really really want one you can't get it for any price!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien