Tesla, Australia to turn 50,000 homes into power generators

[rangerrebew]

Tesla, Australia to turn 50,000 homes into power generators
February 4, 2018
 

Some 50,000 homes in South Australia will receive solar panels and Tesla batteries, the state government announced Sunday, in a landmark plan to turn houses into a giant, interconnected power plant.

South Australia is already home to world's biggest battery in an Elon Musk-driven project to provide electricity for more than 30,000 homes.

The state government has since been looking for more ways—particularly through renewables—to address its energy woes after an "unprecedented" storm caused a state-wide blackout in 2016.


Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-02-tesla-australia-homes-power.html#jCp

[Joe Wooten]

SCAM, SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thackney]

SCAM, SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM,SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It will actually work, but it will cost far more tax payer dollars than the system saves the users.

[roamer_1]

It will actually work, but it will cost far more tax payer dollars than the system saves the users.

That'd be right. But what you have when you're done is a resilient network and a distributed function.
Depending upon reasonable switching, that's hard to knock that down.

The big downside is battery care... Joe suburbia isn't going to know how, and probably won't care.,. Which means the batts won't last long.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

It will actually work, but it will cost far more tax payer dollars than the system saves the users.

Using an ant to spin a turnstile will work as well to generate electricity, but since there are no economics to it, it actually will not truly work acceptably.

Elon has found a real honey hole in South Australia if they bite on this one.

[thackney]

Using an ant to spin a turnstile will work as well to generate electricity, but since there are no economics to it, it actually will not truly work acceptably.

Elon has found a real honey hole in South Australia if they bite on this one.

It isn't just Australia:

Tesla Expands Sales of Solar Gear at Home Depot
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/tesla-expands-sales-of-solar-gear-at-home-depot-in-critical-test

And it is not just Tesla:

Is Audi Giving Competition To The Tesla Powerwall With Its Virtual Power Plant Battery Grid?
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/23/audi-giving-competition-tesla-powerwall-virtual-power-plant-battery-grid/

[IsailedawayfromFR]

It isn't just Australia:

Tesla Expands Sales of Solar Gear at Home Depot
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/tesla-expands-sales-of-solar-gear-at-home-depot-in-critical-test

And it is not just Tesla:

Is Audi Giving Competition To The Tesla Powerwall With Its Virtual Power Plant Battery Grid?
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/23/audi-giving-competition-tesla-powerwall-virtual-power-plant-battery-grid/

Since no mention of economic benefits emerge from these articles, one can deduce the taxpayer is taking it on the chin to justify project.

[thackney]

Since no mention of economic benefits emerge from these articles, one can deduce the taxpayer is taking it on the chin to justify project.

It is unclear to me if it is mostly taxpayer or rate payer footing the bill.

There are quite a few others besides Tesla in this market.  Many but not all originally car manufactures. 

https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-energy-storage/lg-chem-resu-battery/

[Joe Wooten]

It will actually work, but it will cost far more tax payer dollars than the system saves the users.

I did not say it would not work, it will, but it will also need deep taxpayer subsidies AND higher electricity rates to pay for it. That's why it's a scam. More welfare for billionaires......

[thackney]

To be clear, it is the Taxpayers funding the Tesla in South Australia 50,000 homes project.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-04/elon-musk-tesla-to-give-solar-panels-batteries-to-sa-homes/9394352

...Just like the 100-megawatt lithium ion battery already installed near Jamestown in the state's Mid North region, the virtual power plant scheme is the result of a contractual arrangement between Tesla and South Australian taxpayers.

The State Government will assist the rollout of the virtual power plant scheme with a $2 million grant and a $30 million loan from the Renewable Technology Fund....

[Suppressed]

That'd be right. But what you have when you're done is a resilient network and a distributed function.
Depending upon reasonable switching, that's hard to knock that down.

The huge cost factor in south Australian electricity is transmission costs, so distributed generation makes sense.

[thackney]

The huge cost factor in south Australian electricity is transmission costs, so distributed generation makes sense.

Do you have more info on that cost?

For reference:

Why SA's power prices are so high and the potential fixes so risky
https://indaily.com.au/news/business/analysis/2017/03/07/why-sas-power-prices-are-so-high-and-the-huge-risks-of-potential-fixes/

...It is clear what happened. The Commonwealth LRET (Large-scale Renewable Energy Target) scheme introduced under John Howard in 2009 (with a target of 2% of electricity production) was altered to incorporate higher and higher targets, the latest target being 23.5% of electricity production by 2020. Large-scale solar and wind energy, as well as hydro, are able to contribute towards achieving this target. Both methods of generating electricity are uncompetitive with base-load electricity generated by coal and gas, and uranium, for that matter. Hence, they are being financially assisted by the RET system.

The arrangements for supporting commercial wind and solar energy generation are built around a system of Renewable Energy Certificates (RECs). Electricity retailers are required to source a (rising) proportion of their sales of electricity from hydro, wind and solar generators – overwhelmingly, in practice, from wind farms. To prove this, they buy RECs from eligible generators which they subsequently surrender to the Commonwealth Government, or pay a hefty penalty.

Costs to residential consumers from this scheme are growing by about 11% p.a., according to the AEMC....

[Suppressed]

Do you have more info on that cost?

I don't have hard numbers handy.  I recall seeing some from a couple of years ago, but would have to dig.

I meant to include distribution, not just transmission.  But I think that transmission is most of it.  (and I was sloppy in what I said.  What I was getting at was the differential in south Australian costs over other places is largely T&D -- the states of Victoria and South Australia both have high costs, but Victoria didn't do much green energy investment.)

From your link:

In a typical final consumer’s bill, about 45% flows from the cost of generation, about 45% comes from the cost of transmission and distribution, and about 10% comes from the cost of retailing.

[thackney]

I don't have hard numbers handy.  I recall seeing some from a couple of years ago, but would have to dig.

I meant to include distribution, not just transmission.  But I think that transmission is most of it.  (and I was sloppy in what I said.  What I was getting at was the differential in south Australian costs over other places is largely T&D -- the states of Victoria and South Australia both have high costs, but Victoria didn't do much green energy investment.)

From your link:
In a typical final consumer’s bill, about 45% flows from the cost of generation, about 45% comes from the cost of transmission and distribution, and about 10% comes from the cost of retailing.

I am not sure that is out of line.  I'm trying to find something to compare.  Distribution costs in cities can get expensive with underground and the like.  I used to be in distribution planning a lifetime ago.

[thackney]

I am not sure that is out of line.  I'm trying to find something to compare.  Distribution costs in cities can get expensive with underground and the like.  I used to be in distribution planning a lifetime ago.

@Suppressed

I did find this for the US.  Our T&D typcially runs about 70% of generation costs.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/supplement/excel/suptab_55.xlsx

In Texas that tends to be more like 50%

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/supplement/excel/suptab_55.1.xlsx

But in the Northeast US, that T&D cost is more than generation cost, averaging ~150% and some years 250%

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/supplement/excel/suptab_55.5.xlsx

[IsailedawayfromFR]

@Suppressed

I did find this for the US.  Our T&D typcially runs about 70% of generation costs.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/supplement/excel/suptab_55.xlsx

In Texas that tends to be more like 50%

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/supplement/excel/suptab_55.1.xlsx

But in the Northeast US, that T&D cost is more than generation cost, averaging ~150% and some years 250%

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/supplement/excel/suptab_55.5.xlsx

Wow, had no idea T&D costs were so high.

I can now see some of the benefit to a power company of someone having their own solar power supply.

I wonder though how much of the costs are fixed vs variable.

If someone could get off the grid completely, it would have huge savings of investment by a power company.  If it remains on grid, not too much I bet.

[thackney]

Wow, had no idea T&D costs were so high.

I can now see some of the benefit to a power company of someone having their own solar power supply.

I wonder though how much of the costs are fixed vs variable.

If someone could get off the grid completely, it would have huge savings of investment by a power company.  If it remains on grid, not too much I bet.

Nearly all the costs are fixed for T&D.  Everything is built for the future peak load.  Everything that shaves the size of the peak is a savings to the amount of the grid that needs to be built, provided it reliably shaves that peak because brownouts or blackouts are the result otherwise.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Nearly all the costs are fixed for T&D.  Everything is built for the future peak load.  Everything that shaves the size of the peak is a savings to the amount of the grid that needs to be built, provided it reliably shaves that peak because brownouts or blackouts are the result otherwise.

Thx.  Power companies for those living in some rural areas should be subsidizing customers to get off the grid completely if feasible.

[roamer_1]

Thx.  Power companies for those living in some rural areas should be subsidizing customers to get off the grid completely if feasible.

Up here, solar is the only option in a lot of places. Off-grid is a thing here by necessity.
What is cool in this is the idea of networking all those singular stations together. Load sharing, etc.

That wouldn't work here, but communal locations could do that, and it becomes scalable.
I don't know about this particular instance, but the concept is intriguing.

Scalable, distributed, versatile (generator, wind, solar)

The only way it would work is communally (governmental body or utility for common installation and maintenance) but the concept is very valid.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Up here, solar is the only option in a lot of places. Off-grid is a thing here by necessity.
What is cool in this is the idea of networking all those singular stations together. Load sharing, etc.

That wouldn't work here, but communal locations could do that, and it becomes scalable.
I don't know about this particular instance, but the concept is intriguing.

Scalable, distributed, versatile (generator, wind, solar)

The only way it would work is communally (governmental body or utility for common installation and maintenance) but the concept is very valid.

It got me to thinking of my next door neighbor I had in the 80s who worked for a telecom company.

Back then, he tried to convince his management to sponsor a whole town being completely wireless so no transmission lines at all would be in it, no T&D to speak of.  He said it would save tons of money.

His company laughed at him.

Now complete cellular is very achievable.

[Restored]

Duke Power bought up a bunch of tobacco farms in eastern NC and turned them into solar fields. The greatest threat is weather. Hail, hurricanes, etc.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Duke Power bought up a bunch of tobacco farms in eastern NC and turned them into solar fields. The greatest threat is weather. Hail, hurricanes, etc.

Wow, if that was good farmland, what a waste to use it for solar.