Why the fuss over adolescent relationships? My grandmother was 15 when she married.

[endicom]

USA Today
Andrea Ruth
Dec. 11, 2017

It used to be kids were entrusted with a certain amount of autonomy as they entered into adolescence. Not anymore.

In December of 1951 my grandparents, Bob and Jenny, ages 19 and 15-½ at the time, drove from Kentucky to Tennessee to get married. When they returned to rural Manchester, Ky., there was no family meltdown, no trip to the police station. Jenny settled into her role as wife and aspiring registered nurse, while Bob enlisted in the Air Force.

Eleven months later my dad was born. If she was alive to ask, I’m sure Jenny would say she was too young to get married, but the point is no one made her think she wasn’t.

My great-grandparents weren’t thrilled Jenny ran off and got married (misrepresenting her age to do so), but they’d also guided their teen children to be autonomous and become young adults rather than overgrown children. They weren’t alone. Roughly 13% of marriages in 1950 took place between brides and grooms who were15-19 year-olds. In fact, in Tennessee at that time, it was significantly more likely you would marry for the first time in your mid to late teens than in your 30s.

More... https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/12/11/why-do-we-make-such-big-deal-out-adolescence-andrea-ruth-column/938998001/

[endicom]

There is food for thought here. We keep young people in an unnatural state of childhood and then expect them to be adult at some certain date.

[berdie]

I understand the "helicopter" parenting to a degree. there are so many kooks walking around.

But by the same token...kids lose a lot when they can't make an independent decision at a young age. And keeping them "children" until they are 26 or older is a huge disservice to them.

 I had my own apartment at 16 while in high school and a job. I married at 18..and it worked.

[Smokin Joe]

There is food for thought here. We keep young people in an unnatural state of childhood and then expect them to be adult at some certain date.

With the result that all too many just don't grow up--ever.

[NavyCanDo]

My dad and many of his classmates graduated from school after the 8th grade,, few going on to higher grades and college. Quite common in the 1930s and 40s to leave school after the 8th grade and work on the farm or get a job to bring money home. His job was parking cars on Puget Sound ferries. Did that until he was old enough to join the Navy during WWII. They grew up fast back then.

[240B]

My mother was purchased by my father from my grandfather for a pair of field boots, when she was 16. Mississippi in the 50's.

[NavyCanDo]

The girl I would eventually marry was in the 6th grade when I graduated HS and joined the Navy. Seems strange when I think about it.

[goodwithagun]

My granny was 17. Thanks to that generation's acceptance of FDR's policies, they created a climate that makes what they did impossible without Big Gov handouts.

[Smokin Joe]

My grandmother was 16 when she married my grandfather. They raised 4 children and she lived to 101 uears old.

[austingirl]

My sister was 18 when she married her 29  y/o fiancé in 1974. They are still married 43 years later, 5 kids, and 11 grandchildren.

[Frank Cannon]

In December of 1951 my grandparents, Bob and Jenny, ages 19 and 15-½ at the time

Contracted polio.
Drank from a segregated fountain.
Had a much shorter life expectancy.
Could find a job where only one of them had to work.
Had a solid extended family unit.
Had a high probability of dying in a fender bender.
Had less than a high school education.
Didn't ever take the keys out of the ignition or lock their front door, if it even had one.
Got a paper twice a day to get the news.


Times were different then. Things change. The world we live in now and have for many decades have older men stay the hell away from young girls.

[Smokin Joe]

In December of 1951 my grandparents, Bob and Jenny, ages 19 and 15-½ at the time

Contracted polio.
Drank from a segregated fountain.
Had a much shorter life expectancy.
Could find a job where only one of them had to work.
Had a solid extended family unit.
Had a high probability of dying in a fender bender.
Had less than a high school education.
Didn't ever take the keys out of the ignition or lock their front door, if it even had one.
Got a paper twice a day to get the news.


Times were different then. Things change. The world we live in now and have for many decades have older men stay the hell away from young girls.

Moore was alleged to have done something FORTY years ago. Most of it wasn't "wrong" by those standards, and what was alleged to have been wrong, the allegations had more holes than a screen door.
Yes the world has changed.
But he wasn't even alleged to have done anything in the  intervening years.
Not sure where you live, but this town still had a drive-in theater ten years ago. Not everywhere changes at the pace of the big cities--or even wants to. Especially when we see what sewers it makes of more 'modern' towns.

[DB]

Moore was alleged to have done something FORTY years ago. Most of it wasn't "wrong" by those standards, and what was alleged to have been wrong, the allegations had more holes than a screen door.
Yes the world has changed.
But he wasn't even alleged to have done anything in the  intervening years.
Not sure where you live, but this town still had a drive-in theater ten years ago. Not everywhere changes at the pace of the big cities--or even wants to. Especially when we see what sewers it makes of more 'modern' towns.

I disagree with you on what was normal 40 years ago. It wasn't normal here. I was exiting high school about 40 years ago so I have some perspective of the time. My high school had less than 200 kids in it. And we still have a drive-in theater nearby. Moore is not the hill to die on.

[Smokin Joe]

I disagree with you on what was normal 40 years ago. It wasn't normal here. I was exiting high school about 40 years ago so I have some perspective of the time. My high school had less than 200 kids in it. And we still have a drive-in theater nearby. Moore is not the hill to die on.

Where is "here"? And as I have said, Moore had 4 years in West Point, two tours in the Army, and Law school. To return home and look around at the women in his age group all that was left were rejects, retreads, and the town pump. Older women would only have many of the same issues. Younger women would be the only pool of eligible and available and suitable mates. Think back to your 10 year High School Reunion and tell me how many there would have been women you would have considered suitable for marriage at that point. In that group, the 'good ones' had been taken.

[driftdiver]

Where is "here"? And as I have said, Moore had 4 years in West Point, two tours in the Army, and Law school. To return home and look around at the women in his age group all that was left were rejects, retreads, and the town pump. Older women would only have many of the same issues. Younger women would be the only pool of eligible and available and suitable mates. Think back to your 10 year High School Reunion and tell me how many there would have been women you would have considered suitable for marriage at that point. In that group, the 'good ones' had been taken.

@Smokin Joe @DB
Its been normal through most of human history.  Sure its abnormal now but then people are living longer now which has changed the norms.  In fact just a couple hundred years ago it was common for very young girls to be married off to older men.   Something we consider immoral and illegal.

If this 35 yr old man was dating 16-17 yr old girls its not illegal.   Something I doubt he could do without the parents permission.

Also considering that many of the accusations are clearly lies its quite apparent this is nothing but a politically inspired attack that many suckers bought.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe @DB
Its been normal through most of human history.  Sure its abnormal now but then people are living longer now which has changed the norms.  In fact just a couple hundred years ago it was common for very young girls to be married off to older men.   Something we consider immoral and illegal.

If this 35 yr old man was dating 16-17 yr old girls its not illegal.   Something I doubt he could do without the parents permission.

Also considering that many of the accusations are clearly lies its quite apparent this is nothing but a politically inspired attack that many suckers bought.

The other distortion is in the perception of a "date". Apparently, most here have decided a first date should include a steamy session on par with any fantasy found on a multitude of porn sites, and not a trip to the local soda fountain, malt shop, or movie theater, sans sex.
It isn't going out with them (with parental permission) that they apparently object to so much as their immediate expectation that such a liaison would be only for the purpose of hot steamy sex.
Maybe that is a big city thing, or a more modern one, but not there and then.
Not only would such have been highly unusual in an era when girls still deliberated at length over giving a kiss good night on a first date which went well, but a time when reputations were more closely guarded than the Windsor Crown Jewels.  Any female who put out on the first date was either an irredeemable slut or a prostitute, and definitely not worth considering for marriage by any respectable fellow.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

With the result that all too many just don't grow up--ever.

want an example?  http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,294695.msg1541304.html#msg1541304

@Smokin Joe

[Smokin Joe]

want an example?  http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,294695.msg1541304.html#msg1541304

@Smokin Joe

Perfect!

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Perfect!

yeah, I like what Tom Hanks says about things.  See the movie

[Silver Pines]

Moore was alleged to have done something FORTY years ago. Most of it wasn't "wrong" by those standards, and what was alleged to have been wrong, the allegations had more holes than a screen door.
Yes the world has changed.
But he wasn't even alleged to have done anything in the  intervening years.
Not sure where you live, but this town still had a drive-in theater ten years ago. Not everywhere changes at the pace of the big cities--or even wants to. Especially when we see what sewers it makes of more 'modern' towns.

@Smokin Joe

I live in a little rural village right outside of Lynchburg, VA with a population of less than 1500 people...lots of farmers and rednecks, and I mean that in the most positive sense.  If some guy in his thirties made a practice of hanging at recitals and other venues to troll for teenagers, I can guarantee you a lot of sharp—-and for him, unwelcome—-attention would be focused on him.  It would not be viewed as anywhere near normal.

Even Breitbart now admits it believed the charges against Moore but pushed the reverse narrative anyway.

[goodwithagun]

@Smokin Joe

I live in a little rural village right outside of Lynchburg, VA with a population of less than 1500 people...lots of farmers and rednecks, and I mean that in the most positive sense.  If some guy in his thirties made a practice of hanging at recitals and other venues to troll for teenagers, I can guarantee you a lot of sharp—-and for him, unwelcome—-attention would be focused on him.  It would not be viewed as anywhere near normal.

Even Breitbart now admits it believed the charges against Moore but pushed the reverse narrative anyway.

 

And as far as his West Point and college credentials, what interest would somebody with that level of education and that life experience want with somebody in her teens?

[Cripplecreek]

@CatherineofAragon

Even Breitbart now admits it believed the charges against Moore but pushed the reverse narrative anyway.

Just like Trump admitting that he never really believed the story about Rafael Cruz and JFK but he told it anyway because he wanted to win.

That's called "lying" and it comes from the people screaming "FAKE NEWS" at anything they don't want to hear.

[Smokin Joe]

 

And as far as his West Point and college credentials, what interest would somebody with that level of education and that life experience want with somebody in her teens?

Look around at the 30 year olds full of man hate on their second divorce, with a pile of kids, with a full blown drinking (now drugs, too) problem, or who through some other serious personality disorder, never married--pr not for long, and those just a dozen years older with more practice at their particular disqualifying quirk and tell me where his interest would lie? In someone without all that baggage, maybe? While there might be few rare exceptions (nationally, in the day of internet and dating aps), they'd be hard to connect with.
So maybe he sought someone free of well practiced dipsomania, dysfunction, a 'reputation', or the who had the refreshing absence of deep resentments from a prior relationship.

Funny you never raise the question of what she would see in him?

In an age when the differences between 30 and 17 might not be so great in terms of music, culture, and the television shows they'd watched (unlike today where even today's pop culture is so last week), the differences might not be so vast a gulf as to be insurmountable, in fact, far closer than the 'generation gap' of today.
So if he wanted to look for a prospective mate, he'd be wise to look at young women who hadn't developed and ingrained the sort of behaviour that would render them a poor choice, and who were not already married (at least once).
From the accounts of those who were of legal age, the ones I find most credible, he did not make sexual advances. Only those with questionable testimony, forged documents, and such claimed impropriety. The former behaviour is the same sort of 'exploratory' courting which might indicate if a relationship had potential without the carnal entanglements of sexual activity. As has been repeatedly pointed out, observing the proprieties, a date or two either can walk away from unsullied except in the wild imaginations of tongue wagging gossips, a way to remain respectable, unless, of course, viewed through the poison prism of 40 years of "progress" and the gravitational fields of the Washington Post and Liberal Media.

I really don't give a rabid rat's ass what anyone thinks, in that most of the accusers here are women, and have never seen dating from a guy's perspective, nor, from the comments are they capable of even trying to. Their maternal instincts have kicked into overdrive, even denying the relative maturity expressed by young ladies then, who were often preparing to marry that fellow from high school.

So, enough. Count coup on this my last post here on this topic if you must, but you won't change my mind, and I won't change yours.

It is comical so much is being ignored in this, but this isn't why Moore lost. Look at the demographic divisions:

Among white men, Moore got 72%, White women 63% of the vote.
Among Blacks, though, the score was markedly different: Black men 6%, Black Women, 2%

Overall, 68% of the 66% of voters who are white, 4% of the 33% of voters who are black.

That's what shut Moore down at the polls.

Dating 17 year olds had diddley squat to do with it.

[Silver Pines]

 

And as far as his West Point and college credentials, what interest would somebody with that level of education and that life experience want with somebody in her teens?

@goodwithagun

Imo, a man with some kind of deep insecurity about women his own age. 

[Silver Pines]

@CatherineofAragon

Just like Trump admitting that he never really believed the story about Rafael Cruz and JFK but he told it anyway because he wanted to win.

That's called "lying" and it comes from the people screaming "FAKE NEWS" at anything they don't want to hear.

@Cripplecreek

Right....believing a man is a molester but doing all you can to get him into office.  That's as evil as it gets.

[Silver Pines]

I really don't give a rabid rat's ass what anyone thinks, in that most of the accusers here are women, and have never seen dating from a guy's perspective, nor, from the comments are they capable of even trying to. Their maternal instincts have kicked into overdrive, even denying the relative maturity expressed by young ladies then, who were often preparing to marry that fellow from high school.

@Smokin Joe

I've spent my life trying to see things from the perspective of men.  Trying to be fair, to defend them from the attacks of leftwing women.

But what I've seen here has put an end to that, once and for all.   It's become clear to me that some conservative men--mostly of a certain generation---have zero respect for women. 

[goodwithagun]

Look around at the 30 year olds full of man hate on their second divorce, with a pile of kids, with a full blown drinking (now drugs, too) problem, or who through some other serious personality disorder, never married--pr not for long, and those just a dozen years older with more practice at their particular disqualifying quirk and tell me where his interest would lie? In someone without all that baggage, maybe? While there might be few rare exceptions (nationally, in the day of internet and dating aps), they'd be hard to connect with.
So maybe he sought someone free of well practiced dipsomania, dysfunction, a 'reputation', or the who had the refreshing absence of deep resentments from a prior relationship.

Funny you never raise the question of what she would see in him?

In an age when the differences between 30 and 17 might not be so great in terms of music, culture, and the television shows they'd watched (unlike today where even today's pop culture is so last week), the differences might not be so vast a gulf as to be insurmountable, in fact, far closer than the 'generation gap' of today.
So if he wanted to look for a prospective mate, he'd be wise to look at young women who hadn't developed and ingrained the sort of behaviour that would render them a poor choice, and who were not already married (at least once).
From the accounts of those who were of legal age, the ones I find most credible, he did not make sexual advances. Only those with questionable testimony, forged documents, and such claimed impropriety. The former behaviour is the same sort of 'exploratory' courting which might indicate if a relationship had potential without the carnal entanglements of sexual activity. As has been repeatedly pointed out, observing the proprieties, a date or two either can walk away from unsullied except in the wild imaginations of tongue wagging gossips, a way to remain respectable, unless, of course, viewed through the poison prism of 40 years of "progress" and the gravitational fields of the Washington Post and Liberal Media.

I really don't give a rabid rat's ass what anyone thinks, in that most of the accusers here are women, and have never seen dating from a guy's perspective, nor, from the comments are they capable of even trying to. Their maternal instincts have kicked into overdrive, even denying the relative maturity expressed by young ladies then, who were often preparing to marry that fellow from high school.

So, enough. Count coup on this my last post here on this topic if you must, but you won't change my mind, and I won't change yours.

It is comical so much is being ignored in this, but this isn't why Moore lost. Look at the demographic divisions:

Among white men, Moore got 72%, White women 63% of the vote.
Among Blacks, though, the score was markedly different: Black men 6%, Black Women, 2%

Overall, 68% of the 66% of voters who are white, 4% of the 33% of voters who are black.

That's what shut Moore down at the polls.

Dating 17 year olds had diddley squat to do with it.

My maternal instincts have hit overdrive? Honey, if a 30 something year old man with Morre's credentials had come sniffing around my mom or her three sisters while in their teens, my grandpa would have kicked that man's ass. Perhaps it's not maternal instincts that are an issue here.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smokin Joe

I've spent my life trying to see things from the perspective of men.  Trying to be fair, to defend them from the attacks of leftwing women.

But what I've seen here has put an end to that, once and for all.   It's become clear to me that some conservative men--mostly of a certain generation---have zero respect for women.

I have great respect for women deserving of my respect, just as I have great respect for men so deserving. It isn't a sexist or gender based thing. I am an equal opportunity respecter of those who earn that.

No, not all do, by any stretch. I give a basic amount of credence and respect to all on first meeting, but anyone can rapidly go up or down the scale from there.

I have no respect for those who have no respect for the truth. For those who rush to judgement based on gossip and who propagate such gossip for the destruction of others whom they have decided are worthy of their enmity, often on the thinnest of bases.

There are other people whom I have no respect for, but those have issues of their own, and I will not bother to mention them here.
 
You may think my comment about 'rejects, retreads, and the town pump' cold and disrespectful toward women, but it is an assessment of generally who is available at 30 in any community--male or female, with rare exception, unless other factors have interrupted their lives and delayed the ordinary process of courting and looking for a mate. College, military service, medical school, law school, are all things which can interfere in that process. For some, dating is just a distraction from their studies at best, and at worst a disruption of their building for their future, provided the relationship even survives the demands of the studious efforts. Those of us who were often working past midnight in labs while in college understand that, in serious contrast to other majors.

People in that category are often few and far between, and that does not mean just because there may be a few present that they will be compatible with any one other individual in that subset of the population.
I have been in my mid 30s on the 'dating scene', and can honestly say, it inspired a manuscript "Notes from the Wasteland: Dating after 30 in Small Town America". When I speak of the dysfunctional, the dipsomaniacs, the otherwise undesirable prospects in the dating world in that age group it is from the experience of meeting a large enough sample to feel relatively knowledgeable. 'Rejects, retreads, and the town pump' were represented.

You don't know one damned thing about me, really, so you don't know me, and you can't possibly know what I think beyond the distorted things you read into it, framed by your own thought pattern.

The WaPo story wasn't 24 hours old before you were calling for Moore's head on a pike, far from enough time for any rebuttal. If you haven't seen the entire buildup in 'sexual' wrongdoing stories and don't think those were done to 'get' Moore, to bury his story in the goo of liberals and Hollywood types being called our for behaviour they really won't suffer for at all, with the exception of getting out of some contracts you aren't paying attention to the typical lead in. You can see the surge developing in the Leftmedia by the elements of the 'next big thing' in series and other shows on television. Yes, it is that apparent. (Has Franken resigned yet?)

I cannot adequately explain my disappointment that you fell for that crap, hook, line, and sinker. But if you feel somehow justified despite the outing of the 'enhanced' signature (complete with "D.A."--his assistant's initials for when she signed for him, likely copied that way), after the revelation of the 'difficulties' the other girl had, (Hint: You can find that writing style in issues of Penthouse Forum, ca 1980, in the letters section where such encounters between what one assumes were consenting adults are written out in the same style and detail), the idea of him taking some young lady to a movie or the drive-in for a burger doesn't seem so evil, especially if it was okay with their parents, and he didn't when it wasn't. After all, there was no claim of any sexual contact from these young ladies.

The whole mall bit was based on a she heard that he heard that he heard type of account, but trying to track it down to  something other than a baseless rumor failed.

It is the same sort of vilification Cruz got from Trump People at TOS, when none would be  bothered with facts, 'just hang the sumbitch', right?

Most disappointing is the willingness to believe the Gloria Allred, WaPo led charge against Moore, pumped by the Left, and all just a few weeks before the election.

So, sorry to disappoint you, m'am, but you got the whole thing wrong. Again. Have a nice day.

[Smokin Joe]

My maternal instincts have hit overdrive? Honey, if a 30 something year old man with Morre's credentials had come sniffing around my mom or her three sisters while in their teens, my grandpa would have kicked that man's ass. Perhaps it's not maternal instincts that are an issue here.

What credentials would those be? West Point Grad? Veteran (including Vietnam)? Law School grad, and Assistant DA?

Yeah, I guess the lawyer bit is kinda hinky.

No one would have had to kick anyone's ass. He asked permission, and when they did say "No." he honored that.

But if threatening unnecessary violent acts on the behalf of others makes you feel better, go for it.

It does help if you spell a man's name right when you vilify him, though.

[goodwithagun]

As I stated in a previous post, what does a man of that level of education and that life experience see in a teen? They have nothing in common so what would they talk about while sipping chocolate malteds down at the A & P?

[Silver Pines]

@Smokin Joe

You’re right, I don’t know a thing about you.  All I can do is form an opinion based on what you post here.  And that’s what I’ve done.

Sorry, but the minority who still thinks Moore is innocent is largely made up of hardcore, rabid Trump fans.  You didn’t fall for his line, but you fell for Moore’s, and the denial of reality in order to do so has been right up there with anything I saw during the 2016 primaries and election. 

When you lay out documented, inarguable fact about Moore (unrelated to the sex thing) to one of his supporters, as I did, and the denial is so complete that the response is “Never happened”, you know you’re dealing with pure emotion.  No amount of reason is going to penetrate. 

By the way, where is Moore these days?  Preparing those lawsuits?  I’m sure we’ll hear about it any day now...right?

I’ll try to struggle on despite your disappointment in me.

[Silver Pines]

My maternal instincts have hit overdrive? Honey, if a 30 something year old man with Morre's credentials had come sniffing around my mom or her three sisters while in their teens, my grandpa would have kicked that man's ass. Perhaps it's not maternal instincts that are an issue here.

@goodwithagun

Imagine a situation in which a teenaged girl comes home from the mall and tells her father, “Dad, this older guy has been hanging around and trying to talk to me.  He wants to date me.”

And Daddy replies, “Well, sweetie, the man probably wants a pure girl, so bring him home and let us meet him!”

Yeah.