Author Topic: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill  (Read 9421 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2017, 07:50:26 am »
The greatest nation on earth can decide we don't want people dying in the streets, but we can't do anything about it but set out a jar at the hardware store and hope some Christians pick up the tab out of the kindness of their hearts.

Wow.
Actually, yes. This nation where people will give to an absolute stranger from whom they expect nothing back in hopes that by their giving they may reduce the suffering of another person. It is that very thing which has made us a leader in the world, the one who shows up to help when disaster strikes, that helps the lights go back on, provides medical care and drinking water and lifts people from despair to their feet.

That is what makes America truly great.

The ACA does not, because it is not only a bad program, it is a fraud.
It has been from day one. Those who were not covered by medicaid, medicare, or insurance who needed treatment to save their lives only had to pick up a phone and call the ambulance (or have someone else do it), or show up at the ER. They were treated. Insurance plans were cheaper and easier for employers to provide, simply because they did not have to cover as much. When the price went up because the Government decided what coverage people would have, those got dropped and employees hours cut to part time. Small businesses couldn't afford the tab, especially in the Obama, close it down, tax it to death, $5 gasoline economy. Many failed to grow, some just closed their doors. More people out of work, more who lost the health insurance they had, BECAUSE of a stupid law shoved down America's throat by Democrats operating behind closed doors.

How often are we told here, as Conservatives, that the perfect is the enemy of the good, and that we should butcher our principles on the altar of compromise?  Yet there was no compromise in this law, post menopausal nuns had to pay for 'reproductive care' as part of their insurance, not just in the law, but upheld in COURT!--not just a violation of their religious belief, but an unnecessary coverage. No one in a free marketplace would demand they buy such coverage. They, obviously would not need it under anything short of truly miraculous circumstances, and then I think they would be able to trust in divine intervention to get down the home stretch.

Who got coverage who didn't have it? 

The one number I have not seen for all the rubbish I have seen about obamacare is even an estimate of how many people who had had health insurance no longer do, directly as a result of this socialist program.
I am one who falls through the cracks.

Even so, I look at what was offered on the "exchanges" and for nearly five times what I had paid a year, I can get insurance which will cover me for contraceptives and prenatal care, which will make certain I can get a pap smear, see to it I can get addiction counseling, pay for pediatric care...et cetera---all things I DON"T NEED AS A GREAT GRANDFATHER--with a deductible nearly three times what I had before, and that deductible twice the average health care (total, by all payors) spending of my family in any given year. OR I CAN BE FINED for not having it, and That still doesn't get me so much as a tube of triple antibiotic ointment and a box of band aids.

In other words, what was rammed into the American people's collective orifice wasn't health care at all, just a bloated and unnecessary insurance program that 'covered' ailments which were unlikely at most, not happening with certainty at worst, and left more people without insurance which covered the problems they had assessed their likelihood of needing coverage for.

Surely the greatest nation on Earth can do better than that?

Oh wait, the free market was doing what it could already, within the strictures imposed by government, and doing fairly well. And for the first time in history, aside from the Churches, the Rotary Club, the Boy Scouts or a local charity auction the wonders of the world wide web had put that little jar on the counter at the hardware store out in view of the whole world, for all to see, to help out those who had fallen through the cracks.
Because with any government program, there are always cracks to fall through.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Drago

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2017, 08:20:11 am »
What he said ^^^^^^^!   Well said @Smokin Joe !  The wife and I are going to need a high-deductable "catastrophic" type policy very soon, STILL not available under the House or Senate plans!! Unbelievable! Repeal and move towards free markets w/o government intervention and health care prices come down by 60-70%...leading to affordability and much lower health insurance premiums for everyone.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 08:21:22 am by Drago »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2017, 08:25:08 am »
What he said ^^^^^^^!   Well said @Smokin Joe !  The wife and I are going to need a high-deductable "catastrophic" type policy very soon, STILL not available under the House or Senate plans!! Unbelievable! Repeal and move towards free markets w/o government intervention and health care prices come down by 60-70%...leading to affordability and much lower health insurance premiums for everyone.
That's exactly where we will have to go as well. Could be more expensive, though, I was still covered under my old policy as a cancer survivor, but thanks to Obamacare, now I'm not covered at at all.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 08:25:29 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Drago

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2017, 08:45:02 am »
FWIW, I was quoted $220./mo. for a high-deductable ($5K p/p) policy before Obamacare (2007'ish) for 2 people in their 50's.  I recently got a quote from "Covered California" (Obamacare exchange) for $960.00/mo. with a $5600. p/p deductible! (For 2 in their "later" 50's) Insane!!

Insane price quote driven by "EHB's", age 26 coverage, "must cover", etc., etc..

We might have to go with a "Christian Sharing Plan" or something...sad that it has come to this.
 
http://www.healthcaresharing.org/about-us/#partner
https://www.libertyhealthshare.org
http://www.chministries.org


-----------------------------
EHB's still in House/Senate bills (at state's discretion, of course CA would mandate them):
"The 2010 Affordable Care Act (ACA) set forth the following ten categories of essential health benefits,[2][3] at Section 1302(b)(1) of the ACA, codified at 42 U.S.C. ยง 18022(b):[4]

A.Ambulatory patient services. [outpatient care]
B.Emergency services.
C.Hospitalization. [inpatient care]
D.Maternity and newborn care
E.Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment.
F.Prescription drugs.
G.Rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices.
H.Laboratory services
I.Preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management;
J.Pediatric services, including oral and vision care."
------------------
@Smokin Joe

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2017, 11:36:38 am »
My my.  How in the world did we ever manage to grow to a prosperous nation of millions of people in this country before government got involved with health care??
An extremely high birth rate. Families had six kids expecting only two to reach adulthood and have kids of their own. I recall infant mortality was so high in the U.S. that the mean life expectancy was somewhere under 50 in 1900: you might live to be 80, or you could die as a child of some serious virus. Go down to an old cemetery and see how many dead children and young adults are among those buried, then look at a modern cemetery. The difference is stark.

The good old days were not as good as people portray them to be.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2017, 11:50:26 am »
My point here is this: every action has a consequence.

If you want to scream about getting the government out of health care, you have to accept the consequences if government is not in health care, and like it or not, a lot of those consequences are not pretty and are simply unacceptable to the vast majority of people.

The idea we're going to get government totally out of the health care industry is not realistic, any more than we can ever expect to close down the public school system (and that one is probably far more achievable given modern information technology). What we can do is try to establish something that has the least impact on government as possible. That impact will never again be zero, like it or not.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2017, 12:39:18 pm »
An extremely high birth rate. Families had six kids expecting only two to reach adulthood and have kids of their own. I recall infant mortality was so high in the U.S. that the mean life expectancy was somewhere under 50 in 1900: you might live to be 80, or you could die as a child of some serious virus. Go down to an old cemetery and see how many dead children and young adults are among those buried, then look at a modern cemetery. The difference is stark.

The good old days were not as good as people portray them to be.
An improvement in personal hygiene was part of the increase in infant survival. That got even better when antibiotics came along. Those likely made the biggest difference.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2017, 12:42:54 pm »
My point here is this: every action has a consequence.

If you want to scream about getting the government out of health care, you have to accept the consequences if government is not in health care, and like it or not, a lot of those consequences are not pretty and are simply unacceptable to the vast majority of people.

The idea we're going to get government totally out of the health care industry is not realistic, any more than we can ever expect to close down the public school system (and that one is probably far more achievable given modern information technology). What we can do is try to establish something that has the least impact on government as possible. That impact will never again be zero, like it or not.
jmyrle, the problem hasn't been government in health CARE, it has been government running (as in micromanaging) health INSURANCE.

Obamacare wasn't about health care, it was about grabbing 1/6 of the economy and selling insurance in a one-size fits all package that not only doesn't fit, but covers things people will never need.

I'm a great grandpa. If I ever need pregnancy counseling, I'll sell the damn book, TV, and movie rights, and pay for it myself!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2017, 12:44:02 pm »


There are, in the real world, three effective choices:

1.  Keep ObamaCare

2.  Fix ObamaCare along the lines proposed by the House and Senate

3.  Single payer

So what's it going to be, conservatives?     If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2017, 12:45:03 pm »


If you want to scream about getting the government out of health care, you have to accept the consequences if government is not in health care, and like it or not, a lot of those consequences are not pretty and are simply unacceptable to the vast majority of people.


You know that for sure how exactly?

Considering voters have been sending more and more people to D.C. on the promise of completely repealing healthcare...I'd say it's the opposite...the majority of the people are willing to accept the consequences...because for their bottom line and their monthly financial health...it's better in the end to not have Obamacare...or ANY form of government run healthcare.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2017, 12:50:49 pm »
jmyrle, the problem hasn't been government in health CARE, it has been government running (as in micromanaging) health INSURANCE.


One of the biggest frauds of Obamacare was forcing people who didn't need health insurance to pay for those that do.

I didn't need health insurance in my 20's and early 30's...the rare times I got sick I paid cash at a minor emergency clinic within the shadow of the hospital where I lived.  Hell I'm 48 and barely need it now.

Obama and his cronies knew this going in...but they had to find a way to force young health adults who weren't interested in or found they needed health insurance to pay for those that the Libs consider a "drain" on the system.

Quote
Obamacare wasn't about health care, it was about grabbing 1/6 of the economy and selling insurance in a one-size fits all package that not only doesn't fit, but covers things people will never need.


And to show you how screwed up their approach was/is....Tricare...the DoD version of Obamacare...had to get an 11th hour waiver to receive qualification as acceptable under the Obamacare standards.

Quote
I'm a great grandpa. If I ever need pregnancy counseling, I'll sell the damn book, TV, and movie rights, and pay for it myself!

I want to be your publicist on that book tour.

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2017, 12:57:13 pm »
There are, in the real world, three effective choices:

1.  Keep ObamaCare

2.  Fix ObamaCare along the lines proposed by the House and Senate

3.  Single payer

So what's it going to be, conservatives?     If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

@Jazzhead
Strawman JH,   since when are those the only three options?    How about repeal Obamacare, reduce regulation, open it up so insurance companies can sell across state lines, restrict insurance companies from the monopolistic practices they use and then use the States to cover the small number of people that fall between the cracks.

Oh and prohibit the govt from hiring anyone who has worked for an insurance company (or the reverse) for 3 years.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2017, 01:01:36 pm »
jmyrle, the problem hasn't been government in health CARE, it has been government running (as in micromanaging) health INSURANCE.

Obamacare wasn't about health care, it was about grabbing 1/6 of the economy and selling insurance in a one-size fits all package that not only doesn't fit, but covers things people will never need.

I'm a great grandpa. If I ever need pregnancy counseling, I'll sell the damn book, TV, and movie rights, and pay for it myself!

The government isn't "getting out of health insurance".   Forget that alternative - it isn't happening, any more than the Phillies will win the division this year.   Of the alternatives that remain, consider the current Senate proposal.  Significantly -

 - It doesn't force you to buy health insurance you don't feel you need

 - It permits the states (the traditional regulators of health insurance)  to allow insurers to offer policies that DON'T cover pregnancy counseling for grandpas.    A broader ranges of choices will effectively bring premium costs down - you can purchase the insurance you need, without the crap you don't.

So what's it going to be conservatives?   It's time to stop caterwauling about a world that doesn't exist, and support a common sense reform that will improve choices, bring costs down, respects federalism and state sovereignty,  and - significantly - effects the first significant rollback of an entitlement program in the nation's history.   

« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 01:04:10 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2017, 01:05:18 pm »
@Jazzhead
Strawman JH,   since when are those the only three options?    How about repeal Obamacare, reduce regulation, open it up so insurance companies can sell across state lines, restrict insurance companies from the monopolistic practices they use and then use the States to cover the small number of people that fall between the cracks.

Oh and prohibit the govt from hiring anyone who has worked for an insurance company (or the reverse) for 3 years.

I don't live in a fantasy world, sir.   The options I outlined are those that exist in the real world.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2017, 01:08:05 pm »
And another thing that frosts me - why do conservatives time and again hail "opening up insurance across state lines" as some kind of panacea?    The STATES have traditionally been responsible for insurance regulation, not the federal government.   It disrespects federalism and state sovereignty for the Washington to force the states to open up their insurance markets to any two-bit product being sold elsewhere.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2017, 01:11:49 pm »
And another thing that frosts me - why do conservatives time and again hail "opening up insurance across state lines" as some kind of panacea?    The STATES have traditionally been responsible for insurance regulation, not the federal government.   It disrespects federalism and state sovereignty for the Washington to force the states to open up their insurance markets to any two-bit product being sold elsewhere.

(Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). The clause states that the United States Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."

Guess in all your study of Federalism you missed the part about interstate commerce.

That tends to happen when you're only looking for excuses in the Constitution to use it to further total big government control.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #116 on: June 23, 2017, 01:16:56 pm »
And another thing that frosts me - why do conservatives time and again hail "opening up insurance across state lines" as some kind of panacea?    The STATES have traditionally been responsible for insurance regulation, not the federal government.   It disrespects federalism and state sovereignty for the Washington to force the states to open up their insurance markets to any two-bit product being sold elsewhere.

What?  That make no sense whatsoever.   :shrug:

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #117 on: June 23, 2017, 01:22:39 pm »
(Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). The clause states that the United States Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."

Guess in all your study of Federalism you missed the part about interstate commerce.

That tends to happen when you're only looking for excuses in the Constitution to use it to further total big government control.

I didn't say that Washington cannot Constitutionally force the states to accept inferior insurance products.   I'm saying it disrespects federalism and state sovereignty to usurp the states' traditional roles and force them to open up their insurance markets to inferior products.   THAT is an example of big government control, sir.   You want top-down Washington regulation of state insurance markets?  Then fine - but for Pete's sake don't call yourself a conservative.   
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 01:25:19 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #118 on: June 23, 2017, 01:24:08 pm »
What?  That make no sense whatsoever.   :shrug:

Why not?  You do realize that the States have traditionally been able to regulate their own insurance markets, don't you?   Why do you believe Washington will do a better job?   
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Offline XenaLee

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #119 on: June 23, 2017, 01:24:37 pm »


One of the biggest frauds of Obamacare was forcing people who didn't need health insurance to pay for those that do.

I didn't need health insurance in my 20's and early 30's...the rare times I got sick I paid cash at a minor emergency clinic within the shadow of the hospital where I lived.  Hell I'm 48 and barely need it now.

Obama and his cronies knew this going in...but they had to find a way to force young health adults who weren't interested in or found they needed health insurance to pay for those that the Libs consider a "drain" on the system.
 

And to show you how screwed up their approach was/is....Tricare...the DoD version of Obamacare...had to get an 11th hour waiver to receive qualification as acceptable under the Obamacare standards.

I want to be your publicist on that book tour.

Same here.  I didn't get health insurance until I was in my mid-30s and the only reason I did then was because I was rear-ended twice within 6 months....both times by male drivers and both times with no injuries..... and I figured somebody (upstairs) was trying to tell me something.  Turned out I did need it later that year.   Considering how healthy I've been for most of my life, the money spent on health insurance was pretty much a waste.  But Obamacare was merely another leftist wealth redistribution scam.... one of many they come up with.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 01:25:15 pm by XenaLee »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #120 on: June 23, 2017, 01:26:17 pm »
Same here.  I didn't get health insurance until I was in my mid-30s and the only reason I did then was because I was rear-ended twice within 6 months....both times by male drivers and both times with no injuries..... and I figured somebody (upstairs) was trying to tell me something.  Turned out I did need it later that year.   Considering how healthy I've been for most of my life, the money spent on health insurance was pretty much a waste.  But Obamacare was merely another leftist wealth redistribution scam.... one of many they come up with.

Congratulations - you're a free rider.   
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #121 on: June 23, 2017, 01:28:51 pm »
I didn't say that Washington cannot Constitutionally force the states to accept inferior insurance products.   I'm saying it disrespects federalism and state sovereignty to usurp the states' traditional roles and force them to open up their insurance markets to inferior products.   THAT is an example of big government control, sir.   You want top-down Washington regulation of state insurance markets?  Then fine - but for Pete's sake don't call yourself a conservative.

You said that requiring portability of insurance policies between states violates Federalism.

I showed you that clearly you didn't know what you are talking about.

And stop with the projection.  It just makes you look like a troll and someone who is truly unserious about the discussion at hand.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline XenaLee

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #122 on: June 23, 2017, 01:29:14 pm »
Congratulations - you're a free rider.

Oh yeah?  Well .... if I were to say what you are....

it would probably get me banned.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2017, 01:34:49 pm »
There are, in the real world, three effective choices:

1.  Keep ObamaCare

2.  Fix ObamaCare along the lines proposed by the House and Senate

3.  Single payer

So what's it going to be, conservatives?     If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Bullshit.

None of the above.
Offer up a clean repeal, and count and tally every vote - let those who wandered from the promise feel the wrath in less than two years.
Let Obamacare crash and burn.

And every traitorous Republican with it.

Offline Mod2

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Re: Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill
« Reply #124 on: June 23, 2017, 01:42:58 pm »
Lets all ease back a touch with the rhetoric here.

It's a hot day, so don't annoy me.