Senate Republicans unveil 'discussion draft' of health care bill

[kevindavis007]

There are, in the real world, three effective choices:

1.  Keep ObamaCare

2.  Fix ObamaCare along the lines proposed by the House and Senate

3.  Single payer

So what's it going to be, conservatives?     If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

To be fair, once the House and Senate meet in conference and reach a 'Compromise' it will be different .  I prefer option 2. I prefer that get rid of Obamacare by a death of a thousand cuts, do I want Government out of healthcare, yes.. But in the real world it is not going to happen anytime soon.  To get the Government out, we have to do a slow phase out. Unlike some addictions, you can't quit Government addition cold turkey.

[Cripplecreek]

To be fair, once the House and Senate meet in conference and reach a 'Compromise' it will be different .  I prefer option 2. I prefer that get rid of Obamacare by a death of a thousand cuts, do I want Government out of healthcare, yes.. But in the real world it is not going to happen anytime soon.  To get the Government out, we have to do a slow phase out. Unlike some addictions, you can't quit Government addition cold turkey.

Given the choices I have to agree.

People don't want to accept it but its been too long. Millions have lost their employer paid health care, have been forced to part time employment and medicaid. Another thing conservatives don't want to accept is the fact that a lot of jobs have been created in health care, insurance and related industries. I never thought I would work for the health care industry but now I find myself working for the for profit Henry Ford Allegiance health care system. The company has experienced explosive growth over the past decade and become the single largest employer in Jackson County Mi as well as one of the largest health care companies in the state. Stock holders loved the idea of forcing the entire population to buy a product and invested heavily.

The simple fact is that repealing Obamacare is going to take a long time if it ever happens.

[kevindavis007]

Given the choices I have to agree.

People don't want to accept it but its been too long. Millions have lost their employer paid health care, have been forced to part time employment and medicaid. Another thing conservatives don't want to accept is the fact that a lot of jobs have been created in health care, insurance and related industries. I never thought I would work for the health care industry but now I find myself working for the for profit Henry Ford Allegiance health care system. The company has experienced explosive growth over the past decade and become the single largest employer in Jackson County Mi as well as one of the largest health care companies in the state. Stock holders loved the idea of forcing the entire population to buy a product and invested heavily.

The simple fact is that repealing Obamacare is going to take a long time if it ever happens.

Exactly.




I'm think we to learn that it is best to get the small victories and build upon it.. Fight one battle at a time folks.  I know long and hard, but guess what Rome wasn't built in a day...

[Sanguine]

Exactly.




I'm think we to learn that it is best to get the small victories and build upon it.. Fight one battle at a time folks.  I know long and hard, but guess what Rome wasn't built in a day...

Or, just rip the bandaid off and start the healing process.

[Smokin Joe]

Congratulations - you're a free rider.

No such thing, unless you are using the benefits of the system and not paying for them.

If you aren't riding, you aren't getting anything for free.

[Smokin Joe]

Or, just rip the bandaid off and start the healing process.

I'm with you. I don't get why people want to pull the nail that was shot into the healthcare system overnight out slowly. Git 'er done, already.

[Suppressed]

I didn't get health insurance until I was in my mid-30s . . .

If you'd gotten into a catastrophic accident, would you have taken responsibility for your actions and insisted they let you die, or would you have dumped the costs onto others?

I think many young people will do the latter.  That's one big reason mandates were put into place--to stop free riders.

[Suppressed]

No such thing, unless you are using the benefits of the system and not paying for them.

If you aren't riding, you aren't getting anything for free.

Exactly.  If @XenaLee and others would insist on being left on the side of the road without anyone else's resources being expended on them once their own means are expended, then there wouldn't be a problem.  But the second they don't buy insurance yet still want that risk covered, then that person is a free rider retroactively.

[Hoodat]

This bill may be the best we can do right now.  Right now we have no democrat votes and some squishes on the Republican side.

Doing nothing is better than passing this bill.  The collapse of Obamacare is imminent.  This bill will only salvage its existence for another ten years.

As far as 2018 goes, I'm guessing it will go exactly as the two special elections the dems put their hopes and money on went.

As far as 2020 goes, pass this current Obamacare-extension Senate bill, and you hand the Democrats the very thing they need to flip the Senate, possibly the House, and win the white house.

[Smokin Joe]

Exactly.  If @XenaLee and others would insist on being left on the side of the road without anyone else's resources being expended on them once their own means are expended, then there wouldn't be a problem.  But the second they don't buy insurance yet still want that risk covered, then that person is a free rider retroactively.

You (I presume, which may be too much) have seen the cost of insurance lately. With much of that picked up via subsidies for people in entry level jobs, who is riding 'free'?

Not to mention all of the preexisting conditions (including a trillion dollars in future care costs for the current AIDS/HIV infected population--not counting future patients) that would not have been covered because of lifestyle associated risks that people will have to pick up paying for their obamacare, even if they don't engage in IV drug use or buggery. The drug treatment industry has already been discussed, and even where that isn't a scam outright, that will be huge, too. (Why else would the cost have gone through the roof overnight? It wasn't a sudden epidemic of cancer.)

[INVAR]

This thread is a quintessential example of the fact that this country has gone wholesale Democrat Socialist.  It's a marvelous exhibition to witness the truth that so many now eschew principles that they have discarded for acceptance of Statism, while those who self-identify as "Conservatives" have apparently convinced themselves that the fundamental transformation they pretended to oppose, they now say is a permanent reality that may only be incrementally scaled-back - if at all.

Meanwhile, the laws of economics are building atop a structure of playing cards that when it finally comes down from the weight of debt and fiat currency - will quash everything flat - and all these stupid arguments in favor of big-government Socialism under the guise of compassion are going to be made moot overnight.

Notwithstanding the Leftist wolves among us who pretend to be "Conservative" for the purposes of deceiving so as to argue the Leftist agenda.

[Jazzhead]

Exactly.  If @XenaLee and others would insist on being left on the side of the road without anyone else's resources being expended on them once their own means are expended, then there wouldn't be a problem.  But the second they don't buy insurance yet still want that risk covered, then that person is a free rider retroactively.

Correct.  The uninsured inevitably cost the rest of us,  because in a humane society we don't leave the sick to die by the side of the road.  Even Xenalee would be taken to a hospital and treated, and the rest of us would have to pay for it. 

Fixing the free rider problem lies at the heart of the ACA -  require everyone - sick and healthy, young and old - to be part of the risk pool by which costs can be equitably spread by purchasing insurance.   That concept remains sound as a pound, even as the execution and design of the ACA was atrocious.  And even as the Republican reform bills will let free riders off the hook by letting them go uninsured if they want. 

 

[roamer_1]

Meanwhile, the laws of economics are building atop a structure of playing cards that when it finally comes down from the weight of debt and fiat currency - will quash everything flat - and all these stupid arguments in favor of big-government Socialism under the guise of compassion are going to be made moot overnight.

QFT, in big red letters. It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks. The violation of principle truths can only end catastrophically. If no one will address it now, It only reserves a very nasty lesson in the (near) future.

"Sooner or later, you run out of other peoples money" - Maggie Thatcher.

All that's left then is abject poverty for everyone, and the hubris of those who ignore the truth will be laid low yet again.

[roamer_1]

Fixing the free rider problem lies at the heart of the ACA -  require everyone - sick and healthy, young and old - to be part of the risk pool by which costs can be equitably spread by purchasing insurance.   That concept remains sound as a pound, even as the execution and design of the ACA was atrocious.  And even as the Republican reform bills will let free riders off the hook by letting them go uninsured if they want.

A damnable lie.

[INVAR]

The uninsured inevitably cost the rest of us,  because in a humane society we don't leave the sick to die by the side of the road.  Even Xenalee would be taken to a hospital and treated, and the rest of us would have to pay for it. 

Fixing the free rider problem lies at the heart of the ACA -  require everyone - sick and healthy, young and old - to be part of the risk pool by which costs can be equitably spread by purchasing insurance.   That concept remains sound as a pound, even as the execution and design of the ACA was atrocious.  And even as the Republican reform bills will let free riders off the hook by letting them go uninsured if they want.

I anyone had any doubts Jazzhead is a die-Hard Leftist and an acolyte of Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Barrack Obama and Jonathan Gruber - all one has to do is read his comments, and then go and Google comments by those four clowns in regards to ACA and you will find that he is quoting them verbatim.

His justifications for mandated coverage are literally ripped right out of the pages of the Democrat talking point playbook.

The term 'Free Riders" was coined by Jonathan Gruber - the architect of the Individual Mandate and a total Hildabeast worshipper. It is revealing that a self-identifying "Conservative" on this board so liberally uses the arguments of the Leftists to supposedly champion that which he demonstrates he is actually waging war against.

[EC]

"Sooner or later, you run out of other peoples money" - Maggie Thatcher.

I'd remind you that even she couldn't do anything with the NHS, and not for want of trying. Anything positive, at least. She did make it more inefficient and even less cost effective. 

[Smokin Joe]

I'd remind you that even she couldn't do anything with the NHS, and not for want of trying. Anything positive, at least. She did make it more inefficient and even less cost effective. 

Well, I have an attitude about trying to fix things that don't work. It's already broke. It can't get much broker.
It isn't as if it is working...
Of course those are generally mechanical devices.

[roamer_1]

I'd remind you that even she couldn't do anything with the NHS, and not for want of trying. Anything positive, at least. She did make it more inefficient and even less cost effective. 

 

It doesn't change the truth of the words. The truth of it is self evident, and result of the violation thereof is predictable, avoidable, and utterly feral.

[Sanguine]

Doing nothing is better than passing this bill.  The collapse of Obamacare is imminent.  This bill will only salvage its existence for another ten years.


As far as 2020 goes, pass this current Obamacare-extension Senate bill, and you hand the Democrats the very thing they need to flip the Senate, possibly the House, and win the white house.

You got it!  Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!

[Smokin Joe]

You got it!  Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!

They're the GOP. That's what they do.

[jmyrlefuller]

This thread is a quintessential example of the fact that this country has gone wholesale Democrat Socialist.  It's a marvelous exhibition to witness the truth that so many now eschew principles that they have discarded for acceptance of Statism, while those who self-identify as "Conservatives" have apparently convinced themselves that the fundamental transformation they pretended to oppose, they now say is a permanent reality that may only be incrementally scaled-back - if at all.

You have no idea what wholesale Democrat Socialist truly is. We're only partway there. You can go north into Canada and see a much better example of it.

We are fighting a battle on which most of the rest of the Western World is on the other side, as is much of our own country. At some point you have to acknowledge that we're badly outnumbered. Whether you like it or not, the idea of not only victory, but a lasting one that will survive any future electoral whims is pretty bleak. We can, however, protect ourselves as individuals from it; it will require us to focus on the most important battles.

Meanwhile, the laws of economics are building atop a structure of playing cards that when it finally comes down from the weight of debt and fiat currency - will quash everything flat - and all these stupid arguments in favor of big-government Socialism under the guise of compassion are going to be made moot overnight.

I will remind you, once again, when that happens: PEOPLE. WILL. DIE. Are you ready for that to happen? Are you ready to see the 19th century squalor return to America in the name of avoiding "wholesale Democrat Socialism?"

Notwithstanding the Leftist wolves among us who pretend to be "Conservative" for the purposes of deceiving so as to argue the Leftist agenda.

Those would be the all-or-nothing extremists who insist on rejecting any and all solutions except the most radical and least workable, thus ensuring the only solution that gets implemented is the socialist policies already still in place.

[Jazzhead]

The term 'Free Riders" was coined by Jonathan Gruber - the architect of the Individual Mandate and a total Hildabeast worshipper. It is revealing that a self-identifying "Conservative" on this board so liberally uses the arguments of the Leftists to supposedly champion that which he demonstrates he is actually waging war against.

The term "free rider" is a familiar concept to anyone who thinks about the economics or business of insurance.  It was not "coined by Jonathan Gruber".   It was addressed back in the seventies as well by conservative intellectuals seeking to find a way to address the uninsured while avoiding single payer.   The intellectual roots of the ACA are, indeed, conservative. 

INVAR,  you have got to be the single most dishonest person on this board.   

[XenaLee]

If you'd gotten into a catastrophic accident, would you have taken responsibility for your actions and insisted they let you die, or would you have dumped the costs onto others?

I think many young people will do the latter.  That's one big reason mandates were put into place--to stop free riders.

No.   The main reason why mandates were put in place.... against the will of MOST Americans and every Republican in Congress.... is so that government, the leftists' "god" could control every American by their short hairs.... even while orchestrating the most massive redistribution of wealth this country has seen "yet".

And even with the mandates, young people could still end up as "free riders".... if they were working and paying taxes, by paying the ""fee"", which would still leave them uninsured.  ObamaCare didn't eliminate, change or fix that BS excuse.... yet the dumfuk leftists act as if it did.

[corbe]

   6 pages into this Thread and no one's mentioned TORT REFORM, conspicuously absent in both the House and Senate versions and which was included in Sen. Cruz's Campaign Health Care proposal, without this being addressed all this talk of Insurance reform is fruitless, IMHO.

[INVAR]

You have no idea what wholesale Democrat Socialist truly is.

I lived in the rural slums of India for a year.  I more than understand what Socialism looks, smells, tastes and feels like with a topping of Caste to ensure no one can challenge its imposition.

At some point you have to acknowledge that we're badly outnumbered.

That is becoming apparent even on supposedly 'Conservative' forums and social sites.

So what?  Just because everyone else in the country decides they will go along with neo-Mao's Cultural Revolution does not mean I'm going to start espousing it or accepting it.

Whether you like it or not, the idea of not only victory, but a lasting one that will survive any future electoral whims is pretty bleak.

Or put in another form that may be familiar:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the people discover they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the canidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy--to be followed by a dictatorship.”

We can, however, protect ourselves as individuals from it; it will require us to focus on the most important battles.

Ceding ground to government-run health insurance and healthcare (which ObamCare is) is surrendering life itself to the government to mandate every aspect of life over us.

There IS no more important battle to be fought.  There is no bigger issue to be resisted in total than this one.  Compromise a tiny amount instead of eschewing this altogether - then Socialism/Communism is our immediate future and structure of governance.

Government has no place in healthcare if liberty is the objective to be maintained.  Liberty will have no place in a society where government is in control of healthcare, because life itself will be regulated to ensure fiscal viability of the government agencies and the tax base.

I will remind you, once again, when that happens: PEOPLE. WILL. DIE. Are you ready for that to happen?

That seems inevitable at this point.   But perhaps you might tell that to Congress and the imbeciles in this country pushing more Central Planning Socialism and exponential debt-spending on us. 

Are you ready to see the 19th century squalor return to America in the name of avoiding "wholesale Democrat Socialism?"

Pushing Socialism on us disguised as compassion guarantees that squalor.  Why are you for it?  A misplaced sense of morality?

Those would be the all-or-nothing extremists who insist on rejecting any and all solutions except the most radical and least workable, thus ensuring the only solution that gets implemented is the socialist policies already still in place.

Can Satan cast out Satan?  Do you really believe that Central Planning Socialism in healthcare is a SOLUTION to preventing Central Planning Socialism?

If we do not want Socialist policies, we must REJECT THEM IN TOTAL.  We don't pussyfoot around with them and accept the premise of them and think we can 'manage' Socialism better than the Democrats can.