Author Topic: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018  (Read 10208 times)

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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2017, 07:50:48 pm »
The IIHS death rates for different vehicles pretty much sum up all the different issues with different types of vehicles regardless of crash tests, etc. That's the first thing I check when looking for a car for a family member. It also gives some indication of vehicles that better allow you to avoid an accident in the first place. Big and heavy do not usually help on that account.
It depends on where you are. Small, light vehicles (and those with a large sail area) get blown off the road here. Little vehicles can't punch through snow drifts, but are instead deflected and even overturned, and at low speeds get hung up.
In this environment, ground clearance counts, weight counts, power counts.
Then pay attention to what is going on and drive it defensively.
If you want ideal maneuverability and horse power to weight ratio, go with a motorcycle, but that isn't so good in a collision, and defensive driving is even more important, because even little cars don't 'see' you.  (Loud pipes save lives!)
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2017, 08:05:06 pm »
It depends on where you are. Small, light vehicles (and those with a large sail area) get blown off the road here. Little vehicles can't punch through snow drifts, but are instead deflected and even overturned, and at low speeds get hung up.
In this environment, ground clearance counts, weight counts, power counts.
Then pay attention to what is going on and drive it defensively.
If you want ideal maneuverability and horse power to weight ratio, go with a motorcycle, but that isn't so good in a collision, and defensive driving is even more important, because even little cars don't 'see' you.  (Loud pipes save lives!)

I'm not arguing small and light. Just that there's an optimum in the middle. I'm also not arguing that there are other factors, like what it is used for and where. And specifically, what I originally was addressing was pickup trucks from the 70's or 80's being safer than modern equivalents - I very much doubt that. There have been many engineering improvements over the years to both make them better handling and more survivable.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2017, 08:33:42 pm »
I'm not arguing small and light. Just that there's an optimum in the middle. I'm also not arguing that there are other factors, like what it is used for and where. And specifically, what I originally was addressing was pickup trucks from the 70's or 80's being safer than modern equivalents - I very much doubt that. There have been many engineering improvements over the years to both make them better handling and more survivable.
There is an optimum in the middle, but up here pickups and suburbans are the middle, among fleets of semis and winch trucks, the average family sedan is 'small'. If you are in a climate that does not get snow, your needs are different than here, where having a summer car and a winter vehicle is a bit of a luxury. You get what you need for the worst conditions you will drive in, or a little more. Not having seen any stats on survivability to compare 70s and 80s pickups to more modern ones, and not having been in a wreck since '80 in one (I got t-boned by a guy coming down a cross road, the yield sign on his road had been flattened and not replaced). I broke the rear wheels loose and the truck spun when hit. Both were totaled, but the raw impact to the one I was in was muted by the reduced traction. We both walked away from the wreck. That accident made me a much more defensive driver. I knew he was supposed to yield, I knew the roads, he did not. Had I not expected him to yield, I may have been better able to avoid the collision altogether. 
A fellow in a early 2000's Ford F-150 brought an end to the project pickup (66 Ford) I had on the road when he did the same to it, with my wife and two grandkids in the cab, wife driving. None of them were hurt, but the only truck that drove away was the '66.
There was a lot less metal in the trucks by the late '70s. 
My current pickup is an '87 Dodge, and the front is mostly metal (plastic grille).
Up here (North Dakota), bigger is better. Elsewhere, perhaps not so much. One size does not fit all.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Gefn

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2017, 08:41:44 am »
When my father died this past October, he left money for my sister, my mother and me to get new cars because he was worried the ones we were currently driving might fail.

My sister bought hers while he was still alive, because we all knew about this money. I told him I didn't want to do anything until the summer until after my hip surgery and my car would be outside all winter I saw no reason to get a new one.

So now my mom has been saying it's time to look at new cars. To be honest, there is nothing wrong with my old car.

Mom and I have each looked at several models (2017) for ourselves, and saw the rear view thingy on every car. Not an option.

The thing is, we both decided we just aren't in love with the cars we have seen. Yes, they are beautiful cars, but we like the cars we are currently driving, so we will just keep our cars for now. Yes they are about ten years old but they run well.

To be honest, I miss my first car. A 76 Pontiac, no technology on it other than the tape deck I installed. You even had to manually roll down the windows.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 08:42:51 am by Freya »
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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2017, 08:45:19 am »
To be honest, I miss my first car. A 76 Pontiac, no technology on it other than the tape deck I installed. You even had to manually roll down the windows.
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.
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Offline Gefn

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2017, 08:48:13 am »
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.

Wow. We were actually going to buy Subarus. Mom and I currently have Hondas. Thank you @mountaineer
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 08:48:49 am by Freya »
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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2017, 09:00:17 am »
Subaru is a very good car and not as pricey as others in its class. I tried to buy American in 2014, but didn't like the options in the small SUV category and so went with the Forester.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2017, 04:41:40 pm »
Subaru is a very good car and not as pricey as others in its class. I tried to buy American in 2014, but didn't like the options in the small SUV category and so went with the Forester.

@mountaineer

And they WORK. Hillbilly life is notoriously hard on vehicles... You can be reasonably guaranteed you will find a 3/4T or better pickup truck in their yard... and a far better than average chance there will be a subaru too... to the point that in talking to them, 'subaru' has nearly replaced the word 'car'.

Not very much short of a heavy pickup can withstand 15-20 miles of pavement, another 7-10 miles of gravel, and probably 2 miles of forest track all the time, not to mention in the winter. Pretty much the only thing out there other than 4x4 pickups, 4-wheelers, and snowmachines has Subaru on the grill.

@Freya
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 04:42:05 pm by roamer_1 »

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2017, 05:25:03 pm »
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.

Didn't Al Bundy drive a Duster?

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2017, 05:30:33 pm »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2017, 05:52:44 pm »
I'd love to have my '71 Plymouth Duster again. It would be even nicer with a rear-view camera, though. My current car ('14 Subaru) has it, and it's very helpful.

Sibling to my '71 Plymouth Scamp.

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2017, 05:53:15 pm »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.

Not at all.

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2017, 10:52:29 pm »
Freya wrote:
"To be honest, I miss my first car. A 76 Pontiac, no technology on it other than the tape deck I installed. You even had to manually roll down the windows."

Heh.
My very first car with air conditioning, power windows, and a -stereo- radio, was my Toyota RAV4 I bought in October of 2005.

Previous to that I'd been driving a 1993 Acura Integra without a/c, a radio (of any kind), and roll-down windows -- for 300,000 miles. (for music, I toted around a portable CD player and headphones)

With hip surgery, I'd suggest one of the current crop of mini-SUVs (like the RAV). Very easy to get in/out of!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2017, 11:40:10 pm »
Subaru is a very good car and not as pricey as others in its class. I tried to buy American in 2014, but didn't like the options in the small SUV category and so went with the Forester.
A guy who worked with me on oil rigs bought a Subaru to replace his Tahoe. Better mileage, than the Tahoe, and a vehicle that would handle the trip from Wyoming to an oil rig in North Dakota in winter (without any trouble on the rig road).  He was excited to get it and thrilled with it once he did. A very capable vehicle for an off the lot SUV.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2017, 07:47:36 am »
I loved my old Escape. It was truck-like and got around 19 mpg. The new Escape is completely different and I really didn't like the interior, so we went with the Forester. The Subaru gets 29-30 mpg, which is nice. I still don't like that the rear window in any of the new small SUVs can't be opened. That was convenient in my old Escape whenever I had to buy some 2x4s; could just hang them out the back window. But you're right, @roamer_1 - the Subaru is very common around this part of WV. We have winding hilly roads, and the AWD is good to have in winter.
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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2017, 10:14:09 am »
Had 2 escapes prior to the redo.  loved em. The New ones cost to much so I bought a Subie.  Picked up a nicely equipped Crosstrek for @26K incl TT&L.  If I had to do it over again I'd go for the Forester even tho the trek is the better looking of the two  but the forester has more inside room for storage.  Currently  I need the Roof Basket for the extra stuff. 

Offline thackney

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2017, 08:09:12 am »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.

I haven't found a truck with mirrors that shows the trailer hitch.  World of difference when hooking up by yourself.
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Offline mirraflake

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2017, 08:46:00 am »
Back up cameras are for idiots that don't know how mirrors work.
My wife's new Camaro has zero visibility out the rear window.- it comes standard with the camera.  Most new cars esp 4 doors have the sloped back roof and high trunk lid and you cannot see behind them at all.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2017, 08:48:08 am »
I haven't found a truck with mirrors that shows the trailer hitch.  World of difference when hooking up by yourself.

No doubt about it but it should still be optional.

Just yesterday I saw a Ford ad making the claim that all the technology was teaching kids to drive better. In reality it teaches them to rely too heavily on technology. I saw it about an hour after my sister almost hit a guy on a cycle because the technology on her 2017 Chevy Cruz decided the bike wasn't important enough to stop for while my sister was apparently just a passenger.

Offline thackney

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2017, 09:42:02 am »
No doubt about it but it should still be optional.

Agreed.  I bought an aftermarket at Tractor Supply and added mine to my basic truck.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2017, 10:18:42 am »
Agreed.  I bought an aftermarket at Tractor Supply and added mine to my basic truck.

Exactly. The technology is fine for those of us who already have the responsibilities of driving deeply embedded in our psyche. The youth who are learning to drive today seem to believe they're absolved of those responsibilities. We have a case here in the county where a teenager is charged with vehicular manslaughter because he saw and ran over a pedestrian while assuming the car would handle it. (His car didn't have braking or steering assist, he assumed all cars had it.)

My sister is especially irritating because she knows better. She grew up driving beaters the same way I did but she's now ultra progressive and can only see a means of controlling others. She informed me that poor people shouldn't drive if they can't afford the ever more expensive new cars. Poor people should take public transportation which means they should all live in the city.


Offline roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2017, 10:24:57 am »
No doubt about it but it should still be optional.

Just yesterday I saw a Ford ad making the claim that all the technology was teaching kids to drive better. In reality it teaches them to rely too heavily on technology. I saw it about an hour after my sister almost hit a guy on a cycle because the technology on her 2017 Chevy Cruz decided the bike wasn't important enough to stop for while my sister was apparently just a passenger.

I JUST met my first 'can't hook up a trailer because your truck doesn't have a backup cam' guy... Friend of my kid... After eight stabs on the mirrors, he just bailed. Doesn't know how to back it up on the mirrors. He's always had a backup cam.

How can you be a guy and not know how to back up a truck using mirrors???

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2017, 10:47:07 am »
I JUST met my first 'can't hook up a trailer because your truck doesn't have a backup cam' guy... Friend of my kid... After eight stabs on the mirrors, he just bailed. Doesn't know how to back it up on the mirrors. He's always had a backup cam.

How can you be a guy and not know how to back up a truck using mirrors???

I don't have a lot of experience with trailers but I grantee I could get within a couple of inches with a few trial and error attempts.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2017, 11:50:43 am »
Uh, no it won't make people that much safer. The problem is that they cameras only work in optimal weather conditions. I know, I use them regularly on a company-owned vehicle.

In severe cold, condensation / ice obscure the lens and when it rains, water droplets destroy visibility 100%. Are they also going to require tiny wipers or heating elements to deal with that? Of course not. So the net result is that people will grow too used to having them and then when they stop working, the drivers will be far more-unsafe than if they had always used conventional means to observe behind them in the first place.

All-but-guaranteed that for every person saved by such devices, one or more will die because the driver allowed themselves to be 100% dependent on a piece of technology that was not 100% functional 100% of the time.

The government will never learn that there is no way to legislate responsibility to those who will not exercise it voluntarily. No amount of technology will ever fix that unless and until human beings are no longer permitted free will on pretense that it's "too dangerous".

Then we are in the scenario of Clockwork Orange, where human freedom itself is considered too dangerous to permit. Seeking a perfect world free of auto accidents is an act of folly.- so naturally it has strong advocates at all levels of government and industry because new products can be created and revenue generated. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:06:12 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2017, 11:55:34 am »
Uh, no it won't make people that much safer. The problem is that they only work in optimal weather conditions. In severe cold condensation and ice appear on the lens and when it rains, water droplets destroy visibility. Are they also going to require tiny wipers or heating elements to deal with that? Of course not. So the net result is that people will grow too used to having them and then when they don't they will be far more unsafe than if they had always used conventional means to observe behind them.

The government will never learn that there is no way to legislate responsibility to those who will not exercise it voluntarily.

The people saying that you can't see out of the rear of modern cars aren't really helping their case, they're describing a design flaw that automakers should correct.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2017, 11:59:59 am »
I'd imagine there were luddites 100 years ago questioning why people needed mirrors on their cars.  Heck is it that hard to turn your head and look?@!

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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2017, 12:26:47 pm »
I'd imagine there were luddites 100 years ago questioning why people needed mirrors on their cars.  Heck is it that hard to turn your head and look?@!

hah hah very funny. I will do you the courtesy of believing that you are not referring to me as a luddite and ignore it. That being said, surely you are aware that the single greatest cause of automobile accidents involving death (including backing up) is DISTRACTED DRIVING?

There is plenty of evidence that increasing the magnitude of technology in vehicles (short of fully automating operations) will do little or nothing to ameliorate that central element, because it involves human nature, which does not change much from year-to-year, decade-to-decade or with applications of fancy technology.

Give people an excuse to allow themselves to be distracted and they will grab it with both hands and not let go. And that is no joke for the people killed in auto accidents.

If the government really wanted to save innocent lives, they'd do away with CAFE standards, which have resulted in roughly 10, 000 extra vehicle deaths annually for many years. Notwithstanding, bowing to the ecoparanoids who claim that they are "saving the planet from global warming", the ever-ready-to-pander politicians and auto-industry are set to increase gas mileage requirements even more, which will doubtless cause even more innocent lives to be lost. Not important when there is political capital to be raised and profits to be harvested from a gullible public.

 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:34:00 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2017, 12:29:12 pm »
So backup cameras distract drivers going forward?


hmmmmm

If you engage reverse while going down the highway I somehow think the camera isn't going to be the issue.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2017, 12:37:07 pm »
So backup cameras distract drivers going forward?


hmmmmm

If you engage reverse while going down the highway I somehow think the camera isn't going to be the issue.

That's not what I meant and you know it. Stop making silly jokes and do me the courtesy of responding substantively to my post, or one would be obliged to assume that you are being flippant, which I'm sure you would agree, would be rude.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:37:43 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2017, 12:46:12 pm »
That's not what I meant and you know it. Stop making silly jokes and do me the courtesy of responding substantively to my post, or one would be obliged to assume that you are being flippant, which I'm sure you would agree, would be rude.

I responded rudely because of your post.   You over generalized and built a huge strawman.

TECHNOLOGY is not the enemy.  It has made cars incredibly more safe then they were 50 years ago.  It has saved many lives and to propose it is costing lives is naive at best.

This story is about backup cameras.  They make backing up safer when used properly.   The govt shouldn't be mandating them but they are a very good tool.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2017, 02:00:34 pm »
I responded rudely because of your post.   You over generalized and built a huge strawman.

TECHNOLOGY is not the enemy.  It has made cars incredibly more safe then they were 50 years ago.  It has saved many lives and to propose it is costing lives is naive at best.

This story is about backup cameras.  They make backing up safer when used properly.   The govt shouldn't be mandating them but they are a very good tool.

So I overgeneralized in your opinion and that gives you the entitlement to be rude !?! Got it. Have a good life. I can see that trying to communicate civilly with you is not going to work because of a fundamental difference in values concerning forum decorum.

And frankly it seems to me that someone else is the one engaging in setting up and knocking down straw men, since I never stated anything even remotely close to what you accused me of saying. I stated that the root cause of traffic accident deaths was distracted driving (true, whether you acknowledge it or not).

You ignored the other substantive elements of the post and digressed into vituperation. So why should I or anyone else bother trying to communicate with you further, since you are all attitude and no willingness (or ability) to remain civil or contribute substantively to the thread?
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2017, 02:02:58 pm »
So I overgeneralized in your opinion and that gives you the entitlement to be rude !?! Got it. Have a good life. I can see that trying to communicate civilly with you is not going to work because of a fundamental difference in values concerning forum decorum.

And frankly it seems to me that someone else is the one engaging in setting up and knocking down straw men, since I never stated anything even remotely close to what you accused me of saying. I stated that the root cause of traffic accident deaths was distracted driving (true, whether you acknowledge it or not).

You ignored the other substantive elements of the post and digressed into vituperation. So why should I or anyone else bother trying to communicate with you further, since you are all attitude and no willingness (or ability) to remain civil or contribute substantively to the thread?

ummmm ok, have a great day
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2017, 02:41:03 pm »
All-but-guaranteed that for every person saved by such devices, one or more will die because the driver allowed themselves to be 100% dependent on a piece of technology that was not 100% functional 100% of the time.


A pervasive problem. I see it here in the woods - Folks don't understand or maintain primitive skills like rudimentary navigation, and the same thing applies. At 20 below, *nothing* electronic works. GPS is fine until the batteries die, or you drop the fool thing in a creek... Here we don't navigate much by direction - Taking a rough azimuth, understanding map topography, and knowing your backstops are very effective and basic skills necessary for finding your way around in the mountains.

But few carry map or compass, and even fewer can navigate by the stars and sun.
And even fewer are even aware of how dangerous their reliance on technology has become.

Good point.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2017, 02:43:33 pm »
The people saying that you can't see out of the rear of modern cars aren't really helping their case, they're describing a design flaw that automakers should correct.

Form over function is a blatant sign of poor engineering.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2017, 02:51:36 pm »
My wife's new Camaro has zero visibility out the rear window.- it comes standard with the camera.  Most new cars esp 4 doors have the sloped back roof and high trunk lid and you cannot see behind them at all.
@Frank Cannon

Bleh. Like they never made cars with massive blind spots before. Ever drive a 70's Charger or a '59 Caddy? You couldn't see anything without using the side view mirrors and still people were able to parallel park and back out of driveways without killing people.


Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2017, 03:01:38 pm »
The first car I ever owned was a 73 Montego and it didn't have great visibility. I still managed to back into and out of our diagonal parking on main street in my home town.


Offline thackney

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2017, 03:13:05 pm »
She informed me that poor people shouldn't drive if they can't afford the ever more expensive new cars. Poor people should take public transportation which means they should all live in the city.

wow...
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Offline thackney

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2017, 03:16:14 pm »
Form over function is a blatant sign of poor engineering.

I would say it is meeting demand.

Stupid buyers pay a lot of bills of those selling.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline mirraflake

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2017, 03:18:11 pm »
Bleh. Like they never made cars with massive blind spots before. Ever drive a 70's Charger or a '59 Caddy? You couldn't see anything without using the side view mirrors and still people were able to parallel park and back out of driveways without killing people.


I have been in nearly every  car ever made from a 6 banger 67 Camaro to a Lamborghini Countach.

The new Camaros you cannot see out of them because the seats are literally on the floor and the  floor pan is lower than the side frame rails more than average cars and the rear glass is up behind you at an angle ad I am 6-2. The rear glass on Camaros are 3-4 feet long but actual viewing  height is very small because the rear glass is getting to the point  it is almost horozontal.

You cannot see out of the rear side windows because the passenger seat is in the way. between the front seat and rear seat there is only 2-3" of space between both seats.

@Frank Cannon

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2017, 03:20:25 pm »
I don't understand why you guys are arguing here? I think we can all pretty much agree that mandating backup cameras (or anything else) is wrong, stupid, and against the basic tenants of conservatism.

Like a backup camera? Buy a car with one or install one. Don't like 'em? Don't buy 'em.

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2017, 03:27:29 pm »
I don't understand why you guys are arguing here? I think we can all pretty much agree that mandating backup cameras (or anything else) is wrong, stupid, and against the basic tenants of conservatism.

Like a backup camera? Buy a car with one or install one. Don't like 'em? Don't buy 'em.

Stop making cogent arguments on the subject at hand you damn  rabble rouser!  lol
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 03:27:47 pm by Wingnut »

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2017, 03:45:31 pm »
wow...

She's sure its for the good of everybody involved whether they know it or not. She went insane when she became a liberal. She's sure that our poor upbringing is abuse and she thinks my younger sister and I are in denial about it. Things like riding in the back of the pickup when we were kids is the sort of thing she cites as abuse. We had guns in the house!!!!!!!

Apparently the only way she can cope with the "abuses" of our childhood is by abusing poor people.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2017, 03:49:35 pm »
I would say it is meeting demand.

Stupid buyers pay a lot of bills of those selling.

There is no excuse for poor engineering. Ever. Build it right.

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2017, 03:54:12 pm »
There is no excuse for poor engineering. Ever. Build it right.

Depends on your definition of right.  For many folks its a car that looks and sounds cool.
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Offline mirraflake

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2017, 03:58:24 pm »
There is no excuse for poor engineering. Ever. Build it right.

The only way to back up a Countach. This car was built right. As a old hot rodder, looks are always over function in my book.



@roamer_1

@driftdiver
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 03:59:03 pm by mirraflake »

Offline mirraflake

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2017, 04:02:37 pm »
I don't understand why you guys are arguing here? I think we can all pretty much agree that mandating backup cameras (or anything else) is wrong, stupid, and against the basic tenants of conservatism.

Like a backup camera? Buy a car with one or install one. Don't like 'em? Don't buy 'em.
Back prior to 1967 cars only came with what they now call the fruit jar. A single cylinder master cylinder. If one brake line sprung a hole you lost your entire braking system. In 67 Gov't mandated cars come with 2 chamber master cylinder and front brakes separate from rear.

Not everything the gov't mandates is wrong. Large business is not always right and looking out for the little guy. It took this mandate for ar companies to make the 2 cylinder MC.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2017, 04:07:24 pm »
Depends on your definition of right.  For many folks its a car that looks and sounds cool.
Not to nitpick (well, I guess I am nitpicking) the correct contraction spelling of "it is" is with an apostrophe, "it's". The possessive its has no apostrophe. That is not a personal attack, I would have pointed it out to anyone. See, conservatives need to be superior to leftists in every possible way, even correct spelling, grammar, syntax and punctuation.

Just ribbin ya' a little, bro. No hard feelins. yer alright! (PS like your avatar and comment a LOT!).
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Offline thackney

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2017, 04:47:52 pm »
There is no excuse for poor engineering. Ever. Build it right.

Your definition.  As an engineer myself, I long ago learned the golden rule.

He with the gold, makes the rules.

If I want to work as an engineer, I better design something people want.  This isn't my hobby.  I need a paying customer.

Some people believe they will just drive fast enough and never have to worry what is behind them.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline driftdiver

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2017, 05:13:13 pm »
Not to nitpick (well, I guess I am nitpicking) the correct contraction spelling of "it is" is with an apostrophe, "it's". The possessive its has no apostrophe. That is not a personal attack, I would have pointed it out to anyone. See, conservatives need to be superior to leftists in every possible way, even correct spelling, grammar, syntax and punctuation.

Just ribbin ya' a little, bro. No hard feelins. yer alright! (PS like your avatar and comment a LOT!).

GrammEr Nazis must die!

:)
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: Rear-view cameras on vehicles required by 2018
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2017, 05:16:47 pm »
Your definition.  As an engineer myself, I long ago learned the golden rule.

He with the gold, makes the rules.

If I want to work as an engineer, I better design something people want.  This isn't my hobby.  I need a paying customer.

I am a maker myself, though not papered. I have always held out for the right thing, and have walked away from jobs where the design mods were to be intentionally compromised. I won't do it. I need to be able to sleep at night.

Sure there are compromises, but something mission critical is never ever tolerated. Prim a-donna, perhaps. Perfectionist, probably. I have been called worse. But I have never sold out the job.

Worry about the work, the money will come. 

Quote
Some people believe they will just drive fast enough and never have to worry what is behind them.

Right. Imagine their surprise...