Author Topic: GOP lawmakers in North Carolina introduce bill to restore ban on same-sex marriage  (Read 51466 times)

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Offline txradioguy

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That "Church of England type scenario" to which you refer was of no small  consequence. A king got his head chopped off, over that "type scenario."

The English Civil War, whereby King Charles I lost his head, was part of centuries of wars in Europe, over religious differences.

Our Founders wisely sought to keep religion away from government, as far as it being the dominant factor. And it has remained so, to a large extent.

But not entirely. Utah had to stop plural marriages, to gain statehood. Hopefully today we do not allow genital mutilation, in the name of allah, either.

Prohibition was driven mainly, by Christian Temperance movements.

My take on "separation of church and state," is those who get what they want from it, are for it. Those that don't get what they want, oppose it.

In elementary school, we got fish on Fridays. A small localized example of civil government, accommodating a denominational religious practice.

Today, we are asked as a society, to select one set of religious beliefs (above others), to apply to our entire population, even if they do not all agree.   

Well put.
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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That "Church of England type scenario" to which you refer was of no small  consequence. A king got his head chopped off, over that "type scenario."

The English Civil War, whereby King Charles I lost his head, was part of centuries of wars in Europe, over religious differences.

Our Founders wisely sought to keep religion away from government, as far as it being the dominant factor. And it has remained so, to a large extent.



I believe this statement is quite wrong,  depending on what you mean by it.   The 13 colonies had official state religions which differed from state to state.   The "respecting an establishment of religion"   clause was only intended to prevent interdenominational conflicts in the Federal government,  which would obviously have arisen if a particular denomination was regarded as the "official"  national religion.   


By clearly stating that the Federal government would not have preferential treatment for any particular denomination of Christianity,   they headed off a potentially troublesome denominational conflict blowing apart their coalition of states.   


That the Federal government would be explicitly Christian was implicit,  and everyone at the time knew and understood this to be the case.    The US Constitution explicitly states that the President does not have to work on Sundays,   and the US Constitution also ends with a reference to "Our Lord"  meaning Jesus Christ.   


This business of "Separation of Church and State"  is a modern fiction that began in 1948.   It has no basis in history. 



But not entirely. Utah had to stop plural marriages, to gain statehood. Hopefully today we do not allow genital mutilation, in the name of allah, either.

Prohibition was driven mainly, by Christian Temperance movements.

My take on "separation of church and state," is those who get what they want from it, are for it. Those that don't get what they want, oppose it.

In elementary school, we got fish on Fridays. A small localized example of civil government, accommodating a denominational religious practice.

Today, we are asked as a society, to select one set of religious beliefs (above others), to apply to our entire population, even if they do not all agree.   


Well of course we do.   The United States was founded as a specifically Christian nation.   The founding document (Declaration)  specifically refers to "nature and nature's God",   and the Articles of Confederation also refer to God,   and the US Constitution refers to Jesus.     

The way we count the years is from "Anno Domini".    The word "Goodbye"  is derived form "God be w' ye."   Christianity is inherent in English Law,  as well as the subsequent American law which was derived from it.   


Yes,  the nation was founded as a specifically Christian nation,  and we people of today have not been adequately taught about the clear intimacy that the Federal government originally shared with Christianity.   Those that speak of this "Wall of Separation"   are simply using the Jargon of modern deniers.   


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Offline Chosen Daughter

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"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, They may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies." -John Adams : Letter to Zabdiel Adams (21 June 1776)


"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shall not covet," and "Thou shall not steal," are not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free." - John Adams : Ch. 1 Marchamont Nedham : The Right Constitution of a Commonwealth Examined

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams


Great post!  If you want to know what this country was founded on go to the Founders.

Our country has made the decision to abandon what this country was founded on.  God.  People can laugh it off or poo poo that it makes no difference but it does. 

We have no control over people's personal choices in life.  But we shouldn't be changing the meaning of marriage.  Homosexuals could have chosen Civil Unions legislation that would have given them all the same advantages of marriage in a government view.  But this fight was about making God and His institutions meaningless in American society.  It was about making others who do follow Gods Word into haters and homophobes.  Creating laws to punish people who do not want to bake a gay cake or say that homosexuality is not a sin.  We have created laws to divide our country farther than anyone knows.  Creating a social war between the world and the church.

The Hatred of the World

18If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

20Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well. 21But they will treat you like this on account of My name, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

23Whoever hates Me hates My Father as well. 24If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated Me without reason.’a

26When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—He will testify about Me. 27And you also must testify, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


What has been done in this country is to fulfill the Words of Jesus.  To turn this country from a God fearing one into a world loving one.  Worse yet our churches have also been turned from God loving and fearing ones into World serving ones.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 07:12:21 pm by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline INVAR

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The 13 colonies had official state religions which differed from state to state.   The "respecting an establishment of religion"   clause was only intended to prevent interdenominational conflicts in the Federal government,  which would obviously have arisen if a particular denomination was regarded as the "official"  national religion.   

That is exactly correct.  The Founders had no intention to separate God from society or God from Government. Liberty as they bequeathed it to us, cannot exist outside of a biblical/Christian society.  What they were guarding against, is the Popery that held Europe (at the time) in it's grip.  A monarchy using religion to coerce a populace to be beholden to their tyrannical rule, mind, body and spirit.  In their minds, there was no King but Jesus, and no need for a monarch to tell them what they must do in order to be within the good graces of both the government and the church (which were one and the same in Europe).

Indeed, the fear Parliament and the Crown would de-establish all Christian denominations and decree Anglican Churches as the only permitted religion in the Colonies spurned the Appeal To Heaven movement and engendered the slogan "No King But Jesus".

By clearly stating that the Federal government would not have preferential treatment for any particular denomination of Christianity,   they headed off a potentially troublesome denominational conflict blowing apart their coalition of states.   That the Federal government would be explicitly Christian was implicit,  and everyone at the time knew and understood this to be the case. 

Exactly.

This business of "Separation of Church and State"  is a modern fiction that began in 1948.   It has no basis in history. 

That is not exactly a 100% correct statement.  Like the Serpent in the Garden, the Left took a statement written by Jefferson in personal correspondence and attributed it to the First Amendment - thus actually changing the meaning and intent of the First Amendment free exercise clause.

An historical fact is that the Danbury Baptist church of Mass. wrote to Jefferson to demand he de-establsih and get rid of the Congregationalist church in 1801.  Jefferson's response was to assert the Constitutional prohibition that separates the government from having any power to do such a thing.  The wall of separation he noted was the wall of prohibition the Constitution directs at government from having any authority to make law or policy in regards to religion - for or against.  The States were not under that prohibition.

Hugo Black decided that letter from Jefferson superseded the plain words in the Constitution and ascribed his letter as the intent behind the First Amendment is to separate God and religion from the public and having any influence or reference upon Government.


The United States was founded as a specifically Christian nation.   The founding document (Declaration)  specifically refers to "nature and nature's God",   and the Articles of Confederation also refer to God,   and the US Constitution refers to Jesus. 

No one wants to hear or believe that anymore.  The hostility that arises when this is asserted is akin to the flesh being ripped off the Apostle Stephen by the teeth of the Pharisees who hated the truth he spoke and declared it to be blasphemy.  So too are similar sentiments that arise when making the assertion we were a Christian nation and liberty it's fruit.   
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 07:47:47 pm by INVAR »
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Emjay

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Great post!  If you want to know what this country was founded on go to the Founders.

Our country has made the decision to abandon what this country was founded on.  God.  People can laugh it off or poo poo that it makes no difference but it does. 

We have no control over people's personal choices in life.  But we shouldn't be changing the meaning of marriage.  Homosexuals could have chosen Civil Unions legislation that would have given them all the same advantages of marriage in a government view.  But this fight was about making God and His institutions meaningless in American society.  It was about making others who do follow Gods Word into haters and homophobes.  Creating laws to punish people who do not want to bake a gay cake or say that homosexuality is not a sin.  We have created laws to divide our country farther than anyone knows.  Creating a social war between the world and the church.

The Hatred of the World

18If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

20Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well. 21But they will treat you like this on account of My name, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

23Whoever hates Me hates My Father as well. 24If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have seen and hated both Me and My Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated Me without reason.’a

26When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—He will testify about Me. 27And you also must testify, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


What has been done in this country is to fulfill the Words of Jesus.  To turn this country from a God fearing one into a world loving one.  Worse yet our churches have also been turned from God loving and fearing ones into World serving ones.

True.  Homosexual couples could have gained most marital rights with various legal documents.

But that's not what it's about with them.  It's about equality and acceptance.  Just like they could get a cake at 100 other places but they demand all bakers conform.

I'm not that worried about gay marriage.  It's not a huge force in society.  Other things are much worse.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline INVAR

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Great post!  If you want to know what this country was founded on go to the Founders.

Our country has made the decision to abandon what this country was founded on.  God.  People can laugh it off or poo poo that it makes no difference but it does. 

We have no control over people's personal choices in life.  But we shouldn't be changing the meaning of marriage.  Homosexuals could have chosen Civil Unions legislation that would have given them all the same advantages of marriage in a government view.  But this fight was about making God and His institutions meaningless in American society.  It was about making others who do follow Gods Word into haters and homophobes.  Creating laws to punish people who do not want to bake a gay cake or say that homosexuality is not a sin.  We have created laws to divide our country farther than anyone knows.  Creating a social war between the world and the church.

Well said.

All the ails and woes this culture, country and nation are experiencing and will experience, are the direct result of a people and culture choosing secular hedonism as their religion and government their god and Provider to the point that the leavening of sin and abomination has corrupted the entirety of society and is now being forced upon (and will be forced upon all) those who want no part of acknowledging or celebrating sin. 

The consequences for refusing to resist and eschew sin and embrace idiocy and hedonism, is our complete enslavement to sin and idiocy as our faith is placed in men and government and ideas anathema to our foundations rather than God.  The surety which will result in our total destruction.  You are already watching the fruits of this take place right before your eyes.

And it is declared delightful and celebrated by those who insist that the problem is with those who refuse to embrace the new paradigm of morality and government power.  We're the tyrants according to them because we refuse to embrace wickedness and cheer for others to pay for the consequences - thus they declare that we lack any compassion or love for fellow men.

Equality forced by government power is their doctrine of salvation and the utter ruin of liberty.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline truth_seeker

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The nation was founded insuring individuals and congregations the right to practice their beliefs to the extent they did not impact others.

That is quite different from saying the nation will practice the Quakers' pacifist beliefs about war, or the Catholics' beliefs about meat on Friday, or divorce, or the Mormons' belief about polygamy etc.

The distinctive doctrines of denominations do NOT dictate national laws; duly elected representatives do so by laws.

And when those representatives debate issues in their respective chambers, most citizens expect more than Bible quotations, for reasons.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online Hoodat

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The discussion on the morality of same-sex marriage is pointless while we acquiesce to the current tyranny that prohibits us as a society from establishing marriage laws.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline INVAR

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The further away from the foundational precepts of the Christian religion we get as a culture and society, the more oppressive and overt the tyranny is going to become.

And the more insane and ridiculous common sense, or the lack thereof becomes.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Mesaclone

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The further away from the foundational precepts of the Christian religion we get as a culture and society, the more oppressive and overt the tyranny is going to become.

And the more insane and ridiculous common sense, or the lack thereof becomes.

If only we could be more theocratic...like those bastions of freedom in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Vatican City.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline INVAR

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If only we could be more theocratic...like those bastions of freedom in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Vatican City.

Usually only nut job Christian-hating Liberal Atheists puke up that equivocation when mentioning our culture should return to our Christian heritage.

Nice of you to reveal how much you have in common with them.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Futile.

Offline Chosen Daughter

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If only we could be more theocratic...like those bastions of freedom in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Vatican City.

I wouldn't call this freedom.

Christian bakers fined $135,000 for refusing to make wedding cake for lesbians

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/03/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians.html


Gay Group Demands Christian Churches Be SHUT DOWN for Opposing Same-Sex Marriage

http://toprightnews.com/gay-group-demands-christian-churches-be-shut-down-for-opposing-same-sex-marriage/

Gay Persecution of Christians: The Latest Evidence
"http://www.crisismagazine.com/author/stephen-beale"


After six years and hundreds of celebratory confections, it wasn’t the economy, the stiff competition, financing, or any of the other usual road bumps of building a new business that caused Sweet Cakes by Melissa—a husband-and-wife bakery in Portland, Oregon area—to close its doors at the end of the summer.

Instead, it was the nationwide battle over same-sex marriage.

In January, co-owner Aaron Klein had denied a request to bake a cake for a lesbian wedding. “The Bible tells us to flee from sin,” his wife and business namesake, Melissa Klein told a Fox News columnist recently. “I don’t think making a cake for it helps. Protests, boycotts, and a storm of media attention—much of it negative—ensued. The couple received death threats. Then, activists broadened the boycott: any wedding vendor that did business with Sweet Cakes would be targeted.

The final nail in the coffin came in August when the slighted lesbian couple filed an anti-discrimination suit with the state. “The LGBT attacks are the reason we are shutting down the shop. They have killed our business through mob tactics,” Klein said. His wife added: “I guess in my mind I thought we lived in a lot nicer of a world where everybody tolerated everybody.”




Christian Wedding Vendors Under Attack
 In 2006, a noted advocate for traditional marriage, Maggie Gallagher, warned that the legalization of same-sex marriage would lead to constraints on religious freedom. Writing in the Weekly Standard, Gallagher saw the end of adoptions services by Boston Catholic Charities as a foreshadowing of things to come. (To retain its license, Gallagher explained, the agency would have to abide by the state’s anti-discrimination law, which had been extended to married same-sex couples.) She couched her warning in the form of a question:


This March, then, unexpectedly, a mere two years after the introduction of gay marriage in America, a number of latent concerns about the impact of this innovation on religious freedom ceased to be theoretical. How could Adam and Steve’s marriage possibly hurt anyone else? When religious-right leaders prophesy negative consequences from gay marriage, they are often seen as overwrought. The First Amendment, we are told, will protect religious groups from persecution for their views about marriage. So who is right? Is the fate of Catholic Charities of Boston an aberration or a sign of things to come?

Seven years later, we have the answer: as of this writing, there have been at least 11 instances of wedding vendors and venues facing some form of recrimination—threats, boycotts, protests, and the intervention of state or judicial authorities—because they denied services for gay nuptials because of their faith. Besides Sweet Cakes by Melissa, they are:

¦ Masterpiece Cakeshop, Colorado: Owner Jack Phillips refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple in July. The Lakewood bakery has faced at least two protests, a Facebook-driven boycott, and a discrimination complaint from the state Attorney General that was scheduled for a hearing in September. Phillips has said he would rather close his bakeshop than compromise his Christian beliefs. (Sources: news reports including Washington Times and Huffington Post.)

¦ Victoria’s Cake Cottage, Iowa: Baker Victoria Childress denied service to a lesbian couple hoping to get married in 2011. The Des Moines baker was called a “bigot” and faced a protest and Facebook boycott but refused to budge, citing her Christian faith. (Sources: news reports including Washington Times and Huffington Post.)

¦ Fleur Cakes, Oregon: Pam Regentin, the owner of the Mount Hood-area cake shop, refused to make a cake for a lesbian couple earlier this year, sparking another Facebook boycott in May. (Sources: news reports including local television.)

¦ Liberty Ridge Farm, New York: The family-owned farm in mid-state New York is facing a human rights complaint after refusing to host a lesbian wedding in 2012. (Sources: local news sources here and here and the Huffington Post.)

¦ All Occasion Party Place, Texas: In February, the Fort Worth-based wedding venue declined to host a wedding reception for a gay couple. An online boycott has now been launched against the business. (Sources: local news and the Huffington Post.)

¦ Gortz Haus, Iowa: After refusing to host a gay wedding (reported in August), Betty Odgaard, the owner  of the business, received threatening calls and e-mails and now must contend with a complaint the couple has filed with the state civil rights commission. (Sources: local news sources here and here and the Huffington Post.)

¦ Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, New Jersey: In 2012, a state judge ruled that a Methodist-owned events venue in Ocean Grove violated state law when it refused to host a gay wedding in 2007. Also, while the discrimination case was still pending, the facility lost its state tax exemption because it was deemed “no longer met the requirements as a place open to all members of the public,” the New York Times reported. (Sources: The New York Times here and here, Philadelphia Inquirer, and LifeSiteNews.)

¦ Elane Photography, New Mexico: The state Supreme Court ruled in August that a New Mexico photography business owned by Elaine Huguenin and her husband Jon could not legally deny services to same-sex couples. The photographer had refused service for a lesbian commitment ceremony in 2006. One of the women had filed a complaint with the state Human Rights Commission, which ruled against the photographers in 2008, prompting an appeals process that led to the high court decision. It’s now unclear what will happen to the business. (Sources: press releases and news reports including the Catholic News Agency and the Santa Fe New Mexican. The case is discussed further below.)

¦ Arlene’s Flowers, Washington: A florist refused to provide flowers to a gay wedding last March and now owner Baronelle Stutzman is facing a lawsuit from the state Attorney General. (Sources: news reports including local television and the Associated Press.)

¦ Wildflower Inn, Vermont: A lesbian couple sued the Wildflower Inn under the state public accommodations law in 2011 after being told they could not have their wedding reception there. The owners were reportedly open to holding same-sex ceremonies as long as customers were notified that the events personally violated their Catholic faith. It wasn’t enough. The inn had to settle the case in 2012, paying a $10,000 fine and putting double that amount in a charitable trust. Also, the inn is no longer hosting weddings, although the decision reportedly was made before the settlement. (Sources: The New York Times and Huffington Post.)

These cases represent a new battlefield in the clash between the freedoms of Christians and the “radical homosexual agenda,” said Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of The Thomas Moore Law Center. “Despite their relatively small numbers, radical homosexuals wield enormous power. They dominate our cultural elite, Hollywood, television, the mainstream news media, public schools, academia, and a significant portion of the judiciary,” Thompson said in an e-mail interview. “As a result of their power, homosexual activists are able to intimidate and silence opposition.”

Such fundamental clashes are linked to the spreading legalization of same-sex marriage. Of the 11 total cases cited above, three occurred within two years of their state legalizing same-sex marriage. A fourth came four years afterwards. Four others were in states that did not have same-sex marriage but had granted some legal recognition to same-sex unions, such as domestic partnerships or civil unions. “When you start recognizing same-sex marriage, these cases are going to start coming up,” said Jim Campbell, an Alliance for Defense attorney involved in the New Mexico case.

The legalization of same-sex marriage has created new opportunities for Christian business owners to run afoul of longstanding anti-discrimination laws, according to Campbell. But same-sex marriage is not only creating the opportunity—it’s also affecting how those laws are interpreted, Campbell said.

Such laws ban discrimination on the basis of “sexual orientation,” an ambiguous term that could refer either to the sexual attraction and self-identification of individuals or their behavior, according to Peter Sprigg, Senior Fellow for Policy Studies at the Family Research Council. Christian conservatives, he says, draw a distinction between an individual and his behavior. “To disapprove of homosexual relationships … is something quite different from discrimination against an individual on the basis of sexual orientation,” he said.

The line between the dignity of a person and their behavior, however, is being blurred by the Left, according to Sprigg, enabling it to wield anti-discrimination laws against Christian conservatives who are, in fact, not discriminating against individuals. As Denver baker Jack Phillips to his local CBS affiliate, “If gays come in and want to order birthday cakes or any cakes for any occasion, graduations, or whatever, I have no prejudice against that whatsoever.”

Sexual Liberty Before Religious Liberty
 In refusing to participate in gay weddings, Christian business owners have invoked their constitutional right to the free exercise of religion. As the Iowa wedding venue owner asked, “Can I have my beliefs without being ostracized for that?”

Across the country, judges are answering in the negative. In ruling against the Methodist-owned Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association, a state judge declared that the Constitution allows “some intrusion into religious freedom to balance other important societal goals.” In other words, religious liberty has been shoved aside to serve a higher priority—sexual liberty, Sprigg says.

For the Founding Fathers, however, it was religious freedom that took precedent over societal goals, Thompson says. “Man’s duty of honoring God is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation to the claims of civil society,” James Madison, the Framer of the Constitution, wrote in his Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessment). Likewise, Thomas Jefferson declared: “No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprises of the civil authority.”

“Without a narrow exemption allowed for faithful Catholics and other Christians, there is not the concern but the reality that the state is forcing Catholics and Christians to violate their faith,” said Thompson, a Catholic convert. “Society is attempting to force Catholics to violate their God–given, constitutionally protected right to freedom of religion and conscience. The very institution of the Church is being challenged and the laws that are supposed to protect our religious freedom are now being crafted to weaken and destroy that freedom.”

“The Price of Citizenship”
It’s not just the hierarchy of rights that is being inverted. It’s also the scope of the various rights that are in conflict with each other: as the right to sexual liberty has expanded, the scope of religious liberty has correspondingly narrowed.

In challenging the Colorado baker, the national ACLU said in a statement that his business was an inappropriate forum to air his religious beliefs: “[T]heir business is not a house of worship. Colorado law allows members of the clergy to decide whom they will join in a marriage or civil union—and that’s consistent with the principles of religious liberty our nation was founded on. While bakery owners are free to practice their faith and to personally oppose same-sex marriage, they cannot use those beliefs as an excuse to disrespect and discriminate against customers.”

New Mexico Supreme Court Justice Richard C. Bosson agreed. In his ominously worded concurring opinion against the wedding photographers he described limitations on religious freedom as a necessary compromise in a pluralistic democracy—in his words “the price of citizenship”:


On a larger scale, this case provokes reflection on what this nation is all about, its promise of fairness, liberty, equality of opportunity, and justice. At its heart, this case teaches that at some point in our lives all of us must compromise, if only a little, to accommodate the contrasting values of others. A multicultural, pluralistic society, one of our nation’s strengths, demands no less. The Huguenins are free to think, to say, to believe, as they wish; they may pray to the God of their choice and follow those commandments in their personal lives wherever they lead. The Constitution protects the Huguenins in that respect and much more. But there is a price, one that we all have to pay somewhere in our civic life.

In the smaller, more focused world of the marketplace, of commerce, of public accommodation, the Huguenins have to channel their conduct, not their beliefs, so as to leave space for other Americans who believe something different. That compromise is part of the glue that holds us together as a nation, the tolerance that lubricates the varied moving parts of us as a people. That sense of respect we owe others, whether or not we believe as they do, illuminates this country, setting it apart from the discord that afflicts much of the rest of the world. In short, I would say to the Huguenins, with the utmost respect: it is the price of citizenship. I therefore concur.

Campbell called the opinion a “wake-up call” to Christians around the country. “If you want to be a citizen and you want to be a business owner, don’t bring your beliefs,” he said.

In other words: Christians are free to exercise their religion only within the confines of their home or church, but as soon as they leave, they must subordinate those beliefs to the dictates of the anti-discrimination laws, according to Sprigg. “I call it the ‘four-walled’ freedom,” he said.

But religious freedom is not a narrow concept, Thompson says. “It is the ability to live out one’s faith in all aspects of life—which includes earning a livelihood. A wedding vendor should not be forced to check his Christianity at the door, and act in violation of his faith while trying to earn his livelihood,” Thompson said.

Tolerance Before Freedom of Speech
 It’s not just religious freedom that is threatened, it’s also freedom of speech, Campbell said.

Before the state Supreme Court, the defense attorneys had argued that “photography is an expressive art form and that photography can fall within the constitutional protections of free speech,” according to the court’s summary. “Elane Photography also states that in the course of its business, it creates and edits photographs for its clients so as to tell a positive story about each wedding it photographs, and the company and its owners would prefer not to send a positive message about same-sex weddings or same-sex marriage.”

Requiring them to photograph such weddings, is “forced speech,” Campbell said. That should concern everyone, according to Campbell. Today, it might be a photographer asked to document a gay or lesbian wedding. Tomorrow, it could be a lesbian or gay photographer asked to shoot a traditional marriage rally against their convictions, he said.

“That’s the antithesis of what the Founders created in the Constitution,” Campbell said.

It’s also the antithesis of what modern liberals supposedly believe. “Tolerance is permitting opinions and practices that differ from one’s own. It is an act of intolerance to force individuals to do something against their deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs. It is no more or less complicated than this,” Thompson

What the Future Holds
It’s unclear if the wedding photography business owned by Elaine Huguenin and her husband Jon will go the way of Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon. One option is to stop doing weddings. There is also the possibility of an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court—which Thompson estimates would have a better than the usual one to two-percent chance of getting accepted.

So far, no judge has yet to rule in favor of a vendor who denied services to a same-sex couple on the basis of their faith. That leaves Christian business owners with no easy choices. “Currently Christian vendors are being forced to either 1) violate their religious views or 2) choose a different profession,” Thompson wrote. The upshot of it all, he said, is that faithful Christians eventually could be forced out of the wedding business.

The bigger question is what this all means, more broadly, for faith in public life. If other Christians in the United States are wondering what the future holds, they have to look no further than Europe. In Ireland, a Christian printer’s refusal to publish a gay magazine has landed him in court. In Scotland, a Presbyterian church group was turned away from a hotel because of its views on same-sex marriage. And, in France, a mayor is facing five years in prison because he wouldn’t perform a gay wedding.

If Europe is to be any guide, religious freedom may not even be safe within the ‘four walls’ of a church: in August, a gay couple announced they were mounting a legal challenge against a state law that allows British churches to opt out of holding gay weddings.

As Christians in the United State wonder on what these cases might mean for them, they would do well to reflect on a letter that a bishop recently issued to his diocese, after losing that state’s battle over marriage. The letter is addressed by Bishop Thomas Tobin to Rhode Island Catholics, but his words speak to Christians across the country: “Without a doubt this is a time of challenge, even disappointment for many of us, but it is also an opportunity to be steadfast and courageous, and to renew our commitment to Christ and His Church. As our Lord Jesus Christ told us, ‘In the world you will have trouble, but take courage, I have conquered the world’ (Jn 16:33).”
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Tagged as ACLU, Gay Lobby, persecution of Christians, religious liberty, Same-sex "Marriage"


http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/gay-persecution-of-christians-the-latest-evidence
 

AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline INVAR

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I wouldn't call this freedom.

Christian bakers fined $135,000 for refusing to make wedding cake for lesbians

....

C'mon now.  You should know better than cite all that evidence of Christian bigotry and tyranny as some kind of bellwether of phantom Christian persecution.  According to our resident hedonists disguised as Christians and Conservatives - anytime you decide to exercise your faith or make mention of it outside of your own mind or four walls of your house - you are a Christian Taliban, ISIS and worse. 

Didn't you get the memo???
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Chosen Daughter

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C'mon now.  You should know better than cite all that evidence of Christian bigotry and tyranny as some kind of bellwether of phantom Christian persecution.  According to our resident hedonists disguised as Christians and Conservatives - anytime you decide to exercise your faith or make mention of it outside of your own mind or four walls of your house - you are a Christian Taliban, ISIS and worse. 

Didn't you get the memo???

Wasn't the first time I was compared to ISIS or Taliban.  I wish it wasn't only in groups like this and all social media.  It is tyranny against anyone who will not celebrate their sexual choice.

The Bible isn't meant for people who want to reject God.  So I think it is a phony outrage.  They won't be happy until everyone has a gay priest that omits every scripture referring to sexual sin.

And I would challenge people who say I don't believe homosexuality is a sin and you are born like that.  Well then are pedophiles born like that and we should accept them and not call it sin?  Alcoholics born alcoholic?  Drug addicts born addicted to drugs.  Are people born to become addicted to pornography, to be adulterers, thieves and killers?  Are they born liars?  Boy I have known a few people you would have thought were born to lie.  Or maybe homosexual sin is special.  Romans 1 is not merely about homosexuality.  It is a scripture pertaining to God giving people over to their lusts because they reject God and a moral life.  It could be any sin.  They are not born with that sin. 
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline INVAR

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Wasn't the first time I was compared to ISIS or Taliban.  I wish it wasn't only in groups like this and all social media.  It is tyranny against anyone who will not celebrate their sexual choice.

The Bible isn't meant for people who want to reject God.  So I think it is a phony outrage.  They won't be happy until everyone has a gay priest that omits every scripture referring to sexual sin.

And I would challenge people who say I don't believe homosexuality is a sin and you are born like that.  Well then are pedophiles born like that and we should accept them and not call it sin?  Alcoholics born alcoholic?  Drug addicts born addicted to drugs.  Are people born to become addicted to pornography, to be adulterers, thieves and killers?  Are they born liars?  Boy I have known a few people you would have thought were born to lie.  Or maybe homosexual sin is special.  Romans 1 is not merely about homosexuality.  It is a scripture pertaining to God giving people over to their lusts because they reject God and a moral life.  It could be any sin.  They are not born with that sin.

To point out any sin or to call such behavior as sin, is the worst kind of tyranny imaginable to mankind and the reason Thomas Paine wrote the First Amendment to separate church and state to begin with.

Self-righteous busy-bodies like you and I, are the very reason Islam is not a threat to our liberty - but biblical fundamentalists are.  Of course the fact that bigots like us who use the mythological book to measure morality and often cite Genesis 19 as all evidence about where homosexuality will take the country, are proof that criminalizing such bigotry is absolutely necessary in order for freedom to prevail.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Chosen Daughter

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To point out any sin or to call such behavior as sin, is the worst kind of tyranny imaginable to mankind and the reason Thomas Paine wrote the First Amendment to separate church and state to begin with.

Self-righteous busy-bodies like you and I, are the very reason Islam is not a threat to our liberty - but biblical fundamentalists are.  Of course the fact that bigots like us who use the mythological book to measure morality and often cite Genesis 19 as all evidence about where homosexuality will take the country, are proof that criminalizing such bigotry is absolutely necessary in order for freedom to prevail.

Sounds about right.  I always wondered about the Islam thing.  Its Islam that throws gays off buildings and hangs them off cranes.  Yet liberals defend it.

God on the other hand gives his Son and says you have free will choice.  Otherwise I will give you over to your own lusts and sin.  You can make your own choice.  He even goes on to tell those who choose Him over the world that we will be hated for His name.  The Bible certainly is true.  It is also what American Freedom was founded on.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 05:34:23 am by Chosen Daughter »
AG William Barr: "I'm recused from that matter because one of the law firms that represented Epstein long ago was a firm that I subsequently joined for a period of time."

Alexander Acosta Labor Secretary resigned under pressure concerning his "sweetheart deal" with Jeffrey Epstein.  He was under consideration for AG after Sessions was removed, but was forced to resign instead.

Offline INVAR

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The Bible certainly is true.  It is also what American Freedom was founded on.

You will be told that assertion is false, even by those who self-identify as Conservative Christians.  Sadly a vast majority of the population no longer believes that freedom and biblical morality go hand in hand.  A majority believe freedom is determined by society doing whatever is right in their own eyes, and using the government to force everyone else to pay for the consequences.  Because they are not consequences - but inequality, racism, and bigotry that must be dealt with militantly by silencing those who dare to espouse such beliefs.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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You will be told that assertion is false, even by those who self-identify as Conservative Christians.  Sadly a vast majority of the population no longer believes that freedom and biblical morality go hand in hand.  A majority believe freedom is determined by society doing whatever is right in their own eyes, and using the government to force everyone else to pay for the consequences.  Because they are not consequences - but inequality, racism, and bigotry that must be dealt with militantly by silencing those who dare to espouse such beliefs.
So true. I honestly believe that "gay marriage" and Obamacare were means to get the rest of us to pay for AIDS/HIV. Currently, those are anticipated to cost between $600,000 and $750,000 in medical costs per patient over their lifetimes, and there are 1.3 million patients (so far, and counting). By virtue of their lifestyles, the top two risk groups, homosexuals and IV drug abusers were previously uninsurable or high risk, and those who could get insurance paid high rates.
Yet those of us who warn against sexual promiscuity and aberration are excoriated for out moral proselytizing, and attempts to slow the spread of AIDS by shutting down bath houses were so viciously attacked as being mean and anti-gay, as being the product of "haters". If trying to stop people from killing themselves slowly and miserably is "hate", I'm guilty.
The same could be said of the war on drugs: Those who see the misery it causes are cast as evil for trying to stop the self- (and cultural) destruction wrought, claiming they hurt no one but themselves, when they even admit they hurt themselves. Denial, denial, denial.
 
I have long viewed the rules set forth in the Bible for conduct to be a sort of user's manual. Anyone who creates something will come up with a guide to keep it in good shape and running smoothly. But to those who find those rules conflict with their appetites, the Bible is a harsh set of 'Thou shalt nots' which only affect their having fun (despite the destruction wrought by their actions).

« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 06:10:32 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline txradioguy

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Usually only nut job Christian-hating Liberal Atheists puke up that equivocation when mentioning our culture should return to our Christian heritage.

Nice of you to reveal how much you have in common with them.

And it's also nice to see how little he knows about those countries.

IF he wasn't just talking out his fourth point of contact because of a general disdain for religion...he'd know that a desire for America to return to the Christian heritage and what happens in Muslim countries is nowhere near the same.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline Jazzhead

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So true. I honestly believe that "gay marriage" and Obamacare were means to get the rest of us to pay for AIDS/HIV.

So false.   Encouraging gay marriage encourages responsibility and monogamy.   And for those who do get sick - and there but for the grace of God go you, Smokin' Joe -  having a loyal partner is likely the single biggest factor for saving taxpayers the cost of long-term care.   
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Offline TomSea

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If only we could be more theocratic...like those bastions of freedom in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Vatican City.

If it were not for organized Christian religion, we might be like Iran and Saudi Arabia and bowing to Mecca 3 times a day.

So a few square miles in Vatican City really bother you?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 01:36:32 pm by TomSea »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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The greatest threat to the liberal international order comes not from Russia, China, or jihadist terror but from the self-induced deconstruction of Western culture.


https://www.the-american-interest.com/2017/04/12/the-deconstruction-of-the-west/
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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@INVAR

Your insult has been removed.


***

"Encouraging gay marriage encourages responsibility and monogamy."

What I had to say about a mindset (and that is what I addressed specifically) that would utter such an abhorrent thing, remains in truth whether or not the mods permit it to be posted or not.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 07:12:29 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775