Author Topic: GOP lawmakers in North Carolina introduce bill to restore ban on same-sex marriage  (Read 51464 times)

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Online Hoodat

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    But this is a secular nation, son,  with the government and religion strictly separated.

You couldn't be more wrong if you actually tried.

He also couldn't be more dishonest.  The Humanists have no qualms at all in forcing their religion upon the rest of us.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline txradioguy

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You couldn't be more wrong if you actually tried.


He also couldn't be more dishonest.  The Humanists have no qualms at all in forcing their religion upon the rest of us.

All the while bashing us for allegedly imposing ours on them.  It's the definition of hypocrisy.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Online Hoodat

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The part of the 1st Amendment that pertains to religion was put there to prevent another Church of England type scenario from forming in the U.S.  It was NOT put there to stop Nativity Scenes from being displayed on a City Hall lawn or a prayer from being said before a HS football game.

It should be noted that the purpose of Amendment I was to place limitations on the Federal legislature ONLY.  Our right to free speech, press, religion, etc. are not granted by Amendment I.  They are granted by our Creator.


That's more of that judicial tyranny you supposedly hate coming into play when they decided Engel v. Vitale.

The biggest irony of all is Everson v. Board of Education - a case that the Humanists actually lost.  The majority decision of that case was that public school buses could indeed be used to bus kids to Catholic school.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline truth_seeker

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You couldn't be more wrong if you actually tried.

There is no wall of separation between church and state in the Constitution.

The part of the 1st Amendment that pertains to religion was put there to prevent another Church of England type scenario from forming in the U.S.

That "Church of England type scenario" to which you refer was of no small  consequence. A king got his head chopped off, over that "type scenario."

The English Civil War, whereby King Charles I lost his head, was part of centuries of wars in Europe, over religious differences.

Our Founders wisely sought to keep religion away from government, as far as it being the dominant factor. And it has remained so, to a large extent.

But not entirely. Utah had to stop plural marriages, to gain statehood. Hopefully today we do not allow genital mutilation, in the name of allah, either.

Prohibition was driven mainly, by Christian Temperance movements.

My take on "separation of church and state," is those who get what they want from it, are for it. Those that don't get what they want, oppose it.

In elementary school, we got fish on Fridays. A small localized example of civil government, accommodating a denominational religious practice.

Today, we are asked as a society, to select one set of religious beliefs (above others), to apply to our entire population, even if they do not all agree.   
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline INVAR

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You couldn't be more wrong if you actually tried.


He also couldn't be more dishonest.  The Humanists have no qualms at all in forcing their religion upon the rest of us.

Of course he is dishonest.  Lying is a speciality he has repeatedly demonstrated here.  As all Leftists practice - lying is perfectly acceptable because their ends justifies any means they employ, and they redefine those means as morally superior.

The fact is that this mythical wall of separation from God they are pushing society to widen, is resulting in the kinds of tyranny the Founders warned would happen to the nation - and it will culminate with our utter destruction and ruin after an abject persecution of those who believe in and exercise the religion of the God they hate.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Mesaclone

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A perfect Straw Man you have erected if there ever was one.  Do you feel intellectually superior that you have knocked it down?

Au contraire. I simply restated your original assertion and applied to our understanding of god.

You have no idea what beliefs or doctrines I hold to and believe in outside of my stated reverence for the bible as God's Word and the positions against Sin it lists that I have opined on.

My "idea" of your beliefs and doctrines comes from your own words and comments here. It paints a much broader picture than you'd like it to.

Like I said, and you just confirmed - you worship the god of your imagination.  You lean on your own understanding which scripture warns against.  God is whatever and whomever you see and deem it to be.  In short, revelation comes to you from the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air.  It is how homosexuality can be declared to be virtuous and things like abortion to be 'choices' readily offered on the altar of 'freedom'.

All of us, including you, worship the god of imagination...either your own, or that of an earlier writer to whom you ascribe divine inspiration...which is itself an act of imagination. You ARE correct that I lean on my own understanding...both of scripture and of god's presence in this world. God gave us a brain to think with, you seem to prefer to set yours aside in order to follow by rote the thoughts of other men (scripture writers, church doctrines, etcetera).

Concern yourself not with my heart, but your own.   For a Day will come when you will weep or gnash teeth over the folly of what you have accepted as truth from your own imagination when your eyes are actually opened to See.  And that Day is coming for all, whether you believe it or not.

Here is the best indicator of whether or not god lives in your heart. I weep for you because you can't see god for who she is...you can't wait for those who believe differently from you to burn in hell. Which sounds more like something Jesus would approve of?

Then clearly the Jesus you claim to worship, is a fraud and your faith is in vain based on your assertion that the testimony of scriptures and the letters that confirm whom He was is bogus.  Eventually your intellect and reasoning will take you there and beyond.  I've seen it many times before.

My Jesus, like Buddha, Ghandi, and many others...was able to be one with the divine during his time on this earth.
What he taught was compatible with intellect and reasoning....while offering its own insight into love and spirituality. That is where my intellect and reasoning take me...to a god of love and forgiveness. Yours seems to have taken you to a place of fire, brimstone and vengeance. My Jesus is a lot more....Jesus-ee....than your Jesus.



You will have your temporal reward, and that is all you will receive.

The reward, now and in the next life, is to have Jesus with you and in you. There is no need for me to wait for any "rewards"...temporal or otherwise.

You seem filled with such anger and hatred for those who don't understand the bible and god as you do. Until you can rid yourself of that, you will always be searching for Jesus but unable to bring him into your heart. Fortunately, god is eternally patient and she will be there waiting with open arms when you open your eyes.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline truth_seeker

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You seem filled with such anger and hatred for those who don't understand the bible and god as you do. Until you can rid yourself of that, you will always be searching for Jesus but unable to bring him into your heart. Fortunately, god is eternally patient and she will be there waiting with open arms when you open your eyes.

As I see it INVAR is certain only those sharing precisely his beliefs will make it to Heaven, and others will not.  Fire and Brimstone.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline INVAR

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Au contraire. I simply restated your original assertion and applied to our understanding of god.

I do not share your understanding of God, which as I said - is a god of your imagination given your stated discount of scripture.

My "idea" of your beliefs and doctrines comes from your own words and comments here. It paints a much broader picture than you'd like it to.

Oh really????  Do tell.  Explain for me what those doctrines are.

All of us, including you, worship the god of imagination...

You keep telling yourself that.  It's the only way you can justify yourself in your own eyes.

You ARE correct that I lean on my own understanding

Yet Proverbs 3:5 explicitly tells us not to.

God gave us a brain to think with, you seem to prefer to set yours aside in order to follow by rote the thoughts of other men (scripture writers, church doctrines, etcetera).

Once again, you have no idea what I believe, what I do, where I have been or what ministry I have been called to perform.

Here is the best indicator of whether or not god lives in your heart. I weep for you because you can't see god for who she is...

I do not want your empathy, because it comes from the Prince and Power of this world.

you can't wait for those who believe differently from you to burn in hell.

Really?  Where have I said that I cannot wait for people who live in ignorance to burn in hell?    You continue to reveal that you know absolutely nothing that I believe, even though you assert that you think you know what I understand.  You know nothing.  Only your imagination again.

Which sounds more like something Jesus would approve of?

2 Peter 3:9

My Jesus, like Buddha, Ghandi, and many others...was able to be one with the divine during his time on this earth... I weep for you because you can't see god for who she is.   My Jesus is a lot more....Jesus-ee....than your Jesus.

You keep thinking that.  I don't worship your Gaia and neither does Jesus belong to this 'She' you reference as Elohim. 

You seem filled with such anger and hatred for those who don't understand the bible and god as you do.

That sentiment is always the refuge of the Lawless and those who refuse God as Revealed for the golden calves they have created in their own minds of the one they pledge to worship.

You promote lawlessness and then cover it up in gilded sentiment and reasonings from the Prince and Power of this world claiming to be of God. 

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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As I see it INVAR is certain only those sharing precisely his beliefs will make it to Heaven, and others will not.  Fire and Brimstone.

As you see it?  You just demonstrated you have not a clue what it is I believe in regards to the Kingdom of God, Judgment or Reconciliation.

But if it makes it easier for you to assume I think I'm the only one going to heaven - you go ahead and think that.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline truth_seeker

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As you see it?  You just demonstrated you have not a clue what it is I believe in regards to the Kingdom of God, Judgment or Reconciliation.

But if it makes it easier for you to assume I think I'm the only one going to heaven - you go ahead and think that.
How about Zoroastrians, Catholics, liberal protestants, Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, etc. Will they make it in your view?

Or are they wasting their efforts, performing "good works?"
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online Hoodat

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How about Zoroastrians, Catholics, liberal protestants, Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, etc. Will they make it in your view?

Just curious. What do you mean by "make it"?  What does 'making it' entail?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline truth_seeker

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Just curious. What do you mean by "make it"?  What does 'making it' entail?
Heaven in the Evangelical Christian sense.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline MOD3

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 :dontfeed:

Remember, one of the very few ways to get a topic shut down is to argue religion. 

Online Hoodat

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Heaven in the Evangelical Christian sense.

Thanks for the reply.  It is one that essentially ignores the entire point of Christianity, but also one that too many people share.

Personally, I tend to go by what Jesus actually preached (i.e. the kingdom of heaven) instead of viewing salvation as some self-serving 'free-ticket-into-heaven' approach.

Of course none of this has a thing to do with North Carolina legally establishing it's own standard of marriage within the confines of the Constitution of the United States of America, which they have every right to do.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline truth_seeker

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Thanks for the reply.  It is one that essentially ignores the entire point of Christianity, but also one that too many people share.

Personally, I tend to go by what Jesus actually preached (i.e. the kingdom of heaven) instead of viewing salvation as some self-serving 'free-ticket-into-heaven' approach.

Of course none of this has a thing to do with North Carolina legally establishing it's own standard of marriage within the confines of the Constitution of the United States of America, which they have every right to do.

The reason many claim positions against same-sex unions is religious belief. So it connects.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Your understanding of history, and the role of religion in the West is severely lacking. Western society is built on Platonic philosophy/principles and by extension, Enlightenment thought. Much of what you think are "Christian principles" either pre-date Christianity or have developed alongside it.


Platonic principles are at peace with the practice of slavery.   On the other hand,  slavery is incompatible with Christian principles.   You over simplify the impact of Christianity on society by focusing on a few concepts derived from the Greeks as if they were the significant components of Western culture. 


It is this concept of "equal"  that is alien to Plato,  but inherent in Christian teachings. 



Christianity has certainly played a role in the development of Western Society, that is an obvious truism, but Christianity itself has evolved and changed over the millenia....so its a moving target. Christianity was not some monolithic entity imposing its imprint on the Western world, rather, it was a melange of widely varied philosophies developed from a core concept centered around the teachings of Jesus. Teachings which in their original form bear striking similarities, for example, to those of Buddha. Since the very early church, concepts of what those teachings mean...and which teaching are valid...have varied dramatically.

Further, life is sacred to many varying faiths...moreso, in some cases (Buddhism for example), than is the case in Christianity...so your concern about wholesale slaughter related to the absence of Christianity is ridiculous.


We are in no danger of society embracing Buddhism once the Christian culture is purged.  The danger we face is of society embracing what came before Christianity.  If they don't embrace paganism or some other deviant spirituality,  the people will embrace something even worse. 

Only the Atheists have succeeded in surpassing the death toll of Islam.   





That sort of thing happens with and without Christianity, as has been the case throughout history. There ARE faiths, such as Islam, that encourage barbarism and brutality...but there are many others that have ethics and history far more pacifist and respecting of life.


We are not going to get one of those.   We will get Islam or worse.   


The question of gay marriage has nothing do with religious belief...if a particular religion disapproves, it need not sanction gay  marriage within its own practice.



The Christian religion teaches that God destroys homosexuals and everyone that associates with them.   Not only does it say in plain language that Homosexuals need to die,   it gives two very clear examples of entire cities being destroyed because of Homosexuals.    (Sodom and Gomorrah,   and the Battle of Gibeah.)





Some faiths, including many Christian groups, do sanction marriage with THEIR practice.



It is not a matter of opinion.   It is a clearly stated and clearly demonstrated prohibition.   That they chose to deliberately ignore it does not suddenly make it factually correct.   




The problem is that government should have no role in the marriage business...it should neither recognize, nor offer benefit or detraction, to anyone based on marital status. Marriage is a private religious matter, not a governmental one.



This nonsense again.   Yes,  the government (and society at large)  does have a vested interest in this business known as Marriage.   Not only do inheritance issues need to be addressed by the government,  but so too do issue of custody and guardianship.   


Speaking bluntly,  it is in the best interest of both government and society to make new people.  They form the tax base that feeds the beast we call "government."   It is in the best interest of government to have well adjusted and non-insane members of society.   


The current crop of dysfunctional kooks from which we currently suffer is to a large extent the consequence of governmental policies that helped destroy the stable two parent family.   


Christian culture is a load-bearing structural component of this system of governance.   People don't realize how important it is because it has always been here.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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But it was the REPUBLICANS who backed away from the idea, proffering the "Defense of Marriage" Act instead because it was an easier way to get free of the issue.

And they're the ones to blame for "where we are" today.



The same sort that are always enabling the Liberal ratchet effect to occur and become entrenched.   
"Don't ask,  Don't tell"  is another Moderate Republican compromise that was intended to make the issue go away,  even though we would have won had we just fought it at the time. 

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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That's an entirely different fight.


It is the same fight.   It just doesn't look like the same fight to people who have not followed how we got to where we are from where we were. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Online Hoodat

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The reason many claim positions against same-sex unions is religious belief. So it connects.

That is an argument for making the law.  But it has no bearing whatsoever on the Constitutionality of said law.

The moral argument that has been ensuing on this thread is just a diversion from the actual topic at hand - the right of North Carolina to enact it's own marriage definition - one which is applied equally to all.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline DiogenesLamp

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What the hell would it matter if they do?



It would further erode the concept of "Marriage."   It would undermine it and make it an object of ridicule.   


There are a lot of people out there now who say "a man is a fool if he gets married."    "Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?"   


As I pointed out above,  "Marriage"  is a beneficial force to society,  and to government.   We need more normal and productive citizens without psychological issues filling out our society.   


You don't get such people when you let people "Marry"  dogs.   You get feral people that way.  They do not respect anything or anyone,   and you will only be able to control them so long as their numbers do not get too large. 


 


 
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Sorry, DL,  but my neighbors aren't undermining Western civilization.


I'll assume you are being flippant.   Your neighbors (homosexuals I assume)  are a component of the overall force which is undermining Western Civilization.   


  Heck, when I'm gone for the weekend they pick up my paper so would-be burglars won't know I'm gone.     



Years ago I learned something profound when I read a comment that said:   "People are more concerned that their dog has died than that 1,000 people on the other side of the world were killed."   


Local always beats abstract in human thinking.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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I have no problem with the government providing sanction, support and benefits for couples who commit to marriage.    There's no greater force for traditional values than the institution of marriage.   It is a truly unique and valuable contract - a lifetime commitment of mutual support and caring.    An individual provides for his/her partner, in health and in sickness, in prosperity and in poverty - so the government doesn't have to.    Marriage is the most serious, consequential commitment two human beings can make to each other.   Should the government support and encourage that commitment?

YES!



You got this part right.   Where you go wrong is the belief that it should be applied outside of it's natural bounds.   


It reminds me of that General who admired the Green Berets,  and so he figured that having everyone wear the Beret would boost morale.   


He obviously didn't grasp how the whole concept worked.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Really? Since the govt' has gotten involved with marriages the family has never been weaker. Your sophistry has been proven 100% bullshit because we have tangible results to prove it.


You are putting forth a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.   


The family has become weaker because of government subsidies for bastards.  Thank the North Eastern Liberal Republicans for making that happen.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline INVAR

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How about Zoroastrians, Catholics, liberal protestants, Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, etc. Will they make it in your view?

Or are they wasting their efforts, performing "good works?"

Good works do not earn Salvation.

2 Peter 3:9 is pretty definitive as to God's desire.

And then there is that word 'Repentance' which is completely disregarded by most.

And consequences follow for the refusal to do so.

I Corinthians 6:9-10 - also pretty definitive.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline roamer_1

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The fact is that this mythical wall of separation from God they are pushing society to widen, is resulting in the kinds of tyranny the Founders warned would happen to the nation - and it will culminate with our utter destruction and ruin after an abject persecution of those who believe in and exercise the religion of the God they hate.

"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, They may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. They will only exchange Tyrants and Tyrannies." -John Adams : Letter to Zabdiel Adams (21 June 1776)


"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the law of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shall not covet," and "Thou shall not steal," are not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free." - John Adams : Ch. 1 Marchamont Nedham : The Right Constitution of a Commonwealth Examined

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams