Ethanol industry, small-engine manufacturers clash over damage from fuel

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Manufacturers of lawn mowers, snowblowers, chainsaws, and other small-engine equipment continue fueling a debate over the supposed dangers of ethanol, but the ethanol industry argues that they are merely looking for a scapegoat to mask operator error.
Gasoline blended with ethanol has become commonplace for American drivers, especially since Congress enacted the 2007 Renewable Fuel Standard and began mandating increasing amounts of the fuel at gas pumps across the country. Critics argue that while such blends — including the most common, E10, which combines 10 percent ethanol with regular gasoline — pose no problems for automobiles, they can often wreak havoc on small engines.
Those problems become even worse, they say, with higher ethanol blends such as E15.
“You’re putting alcohol into the fuel. They’re different atoms. They don’t like to stay married,” said Kris Kiser, president and CEO of the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute, the leading trade group for power equipment and utility vehicle manufacturers. “This is a big deal, and everybody wants to downplay it. But we’re pretty sensitive to it.”
One of the key issues, Mr. Kiser and others argue, is how rarely much of the small-engine equipment is used. While automobiles run through tanks of gas relatively quickly, lawnmowers and other small machinery often contain the same gasoline for weeks or months.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/9/ethanol-industry-small-engine-manufacturers-clash-/

collusion by the oil industry to blame ethanol unfairly?

Really far fetched.

I believe we are witnessing a dying industry that has been propped up and never made any sense, like Amtrak.

[thackney]

I finally found an E15 pump at a gasoline station.  It dispenses the standard three octane grades of gasoline, separate hose for diesel colored green, separate hose for E15 colored yellow.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I finally found an E15 pump at a gasoline station.  It dispenses the standard three octane grades of gasoline, separate hose for diesel colored green, separate hose for E15 colored yellow.

have a car and truck that could use it, but am reluctant to put the poison into the tank.

I grew up when high octane = good.

[thackney]

have a car and truck that could use it, but am reluctant to put the poison into the tank.

I grew up when high octane = good.

I considered it since my F250 is "FlexFuel" rated.  I may try it later.  It was only a 6¢ discount for 15% ethanol mix, over the "up to 10%" regular.  It was a single octane point higher than regular, 87 vs 88.

[Smokin Joe]

I have been running 91 octane no ethanol gas in the fleet. I get about 15% better gas mileage and have only had one fuel pump go out (at 130k miles). Considering the cost of replacing fuel system components, and that one of the vehicles turned 30 this year, I don't mind paying extra. All the small engines run on no ethanol fuel, too, now, after I replaced a couple of carburetors.

[thackney]

I have been running 91 octane no ethanol gas in the fleet. I get about 15% better gas mileage and have only had one fuel pump go out (at 130k miles). Considering the cost of replacing fuel system components, and that one of the vehicles turned 30 this year, I don't mind paying extra. All the small engines run on no ethanol fuel, too, now, after I replaced a couple of carburetors.

I got 0% difference running a full tank of midgrade or premium over regular on my normal drive for work.

[ShadowAce]

I got 0% difference running a full tank of midgrade or premium over regular on my normal drive for work.

@thackney
The key is not the octane used, but the "no ethanol" part of his claim.  Gasoline has much more energy in it than does alcohol, so you get better mileage.

[thackney]

I have been running 91 octane no ethanol gas in the fleet. I get about 15% better gas mileage

15% better than what?

[Smokin Joe]

15% better than what?

Better than E10 87 octane. Same vehicles, ran on E10 when I first got them, I decided to switch to no ethanol when winter came to cut down on ice in the fuel and noticed better mileage by the second tankful.

[driftdiver]

collusion by the oil industry to blame ethanol unfairly?

Really far fetched.

I believe we are witnessing a dying industry that has been propped up and never made any sense, like Amtrak.

@IsailedawayfromFR
It can't die quickly enough.  Ethanol is a horrible choice.  It provides less power than gasoline per gallon.   When they use corn to produce it the process requires more gasoline then the ethanol replaces.  It damages engines and has a very short shelf life.

Nothing good about using it unless of course you grow corn and pay lobbyists a lot of money.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

@IsailedawayfromFR

Nothing good about using it unless of course you grow corn and pay lobbyists a lot of money.

Archer Daniels Midland created billions of dollars of value for its shareholders on the back of taxpayers and greased many a Congressman's filthy pockets with ethanol.

[Joe Wooten]

I run ALL my small engines on "no ethanol" gasoline. Sthil gives you an extra year on the chainsaw warranty if you buy and use no ethanol gasoline.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

@thackney
The key is not the octane used, but the "no ethanol" part of his claim.  Gasoline has much more energy in it than does alcohol, so you get better mileage.

Gas has more energy per volume than ethanol, however an ICE extracts more energy per volume from ethanol than it does from gasoline.   Mileage is not about how much energy is contained in the fuel, it's about how much makes it to the driveshaft.

[catfish1957]

I finally found an E15 pump at a gasoline station.  It dispenses the standard three octane grades of gasoline, separate hose for diesel colored green, separate hose for E15 colored yellow.

My Titan is flex fuel and can use E15.  Tried one tank.....   Never again.

[catfish1957]

I got 0% difference running a full tank of midgrade or premium over regular on my normal drive for work.

I run one tank of premium (ever 2-3K miles), supposedly the higher octane has an elevated combustion temperature, which in turn (supposedly) will improve in removing some block residues.

But you are right, in my truck there is no discernible difference in gas mileage.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

The only thing that should be 15% ethanol is wine.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

The only thing that should be 15% ethanol is wine.

Frank, is that you?

@Frank Cannon

[Smokin Joe]

Gas has more energy per volume than ethanol, however an ICE extracts more energy per volume from ethanol than it does from gasoline.   Mileage is not about how much energy is contained in the fuel, it's about how much makes it to the driveshaft.

My experience with Chevrolet 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997, 5.7 liter Vortec engines, two 1500 Suburbans, a Tahoe, and a 1 ton Express van all got better gas mileage with no ethanol fuel than with E10. Best improvement was in the 1 ton van, which got 16.8 MPG on the highway versus 14.7 MPG (rarely driven in town), the one suburban which is used in town showed the worst improvement, only getting 1 MPG more. These were all run on 87 octane E10 first, then the MPG figured again after two fill-ups with 91 octane Ethanol free. The smallest fuel tank is 28 gallons and these were allowed to get below 1/4 tank before being filled both times. Mileage on the engines from 60K to 210K, none burn oil in any appreciable amount.

[ABX]

I got 0% difference running a full tank of midgrade or premium over regular on my normal drive for work.

I have a 2015 Volvo S60 Polestar and there is a big difference, to the point I have to seek out non-ethanol fuel. The tolerance is so tight, they only recommend E10 maximum and it will trip the check engine light if you run E15.  Lower fuel mileage and worse performance.

[catfish1957]

I have a 2015 Volvo S60 Polestar and there is a big difference, to the point I have to seek out non-ethanol fuel. The tolerance is so tight, they only recommend E10 maximum and it will trip the check engine light if you run E15.  Lower fuel mileage and worse performance.

Had an '86 GMC blazer way back.  Sucker would only run on premium gas.  Lower octane tanks caused knocks and sputtering.

Good ole' dealer shop foreman stated that was common and expected.  As a 28 yo youngster, I didn't have a bs meter to show the guy.

[Frank Cannon]

Frank, is that you?

@Frank Cannon

Mad Dog runs about 15% Ethanol and 5% embalming fluid.

[Forum member]

Better than E10 87 octane. Same vehicles, ran on E10 when I first got them, I decided to switch to no ethanol when winter came to cut down on ice in the fuel and noticed better mileage by the second tankful.

You may have solved my mystery. My wife has a little PT Cruiser she bought at an auction for far less than it's worth. Uses it to run to town. We had a long cold winter and it refused to start no matter what I tried. She drove other vehicles. This spring it hit high 50s one day and she jumped it again and cranked and it fired. She said she her liquid running for a few seconds after it started. Maybe a fuel line was iced up tight all winter. She burns the 10% ethanol. I'll have her switch to real gas, she only burns a tank every few months anyway.

I rebuilt a 1980 golf cart for use around the place. It was great for years then one day someone dumped in ethanol gas and the carb parts dissolved and it hasn't moved since. Sigh.

[Taxcontrol]

Ethanol bad (as a fuel)
Butanol good

[Smokin Joe]

You may have solved my mystery. My wife has a little PT Cruiser she bought at an auction for far less than it's worth. Uses it to run to town. We had a long cold winter and it refused to start no matter what I tried. She drove other vehicles. This spring it hit high 50s one day and she jumped it again and cranked and it fired. She said she her liquid running for a few seconds after it started. Maybe a fuel line was iced up tight all winter. She burns the 10% ethanol. I'll have her switch to real gas, she only burns a tank every few months anyway.

I rebuilt a 1980 golf cart for use around the place. It was great for years then one day someone dumped in ethanol gas and the carb parts dissolved and it hasn't moved since. Sigh.

Sadly, the way to scavenge the moisture out of the fuel system is to add even more ethanol. Wait until the tank is down and add a bottle of Heet (NOT ISO-Heet), it comes in a yellow bottle. That will absorb water in the system and you can 'burn' it with the ethanol. Then, fill it with the no ethanol gas. If there is an in-line fuel filter, I'd replace that also, because water tends to settle in such, only to expand and cause problems when it freezes.

You should be able to either get a rebuild kit for the carb or another carb, and get the golf cart back up and running again, provided it doesn't have other troubles.

One other thing, it pays to keep fuel tanks full, because there is less room for contracting fuel and vapor to pull in moisture through the vent in the fuel cap. An empty tank will have more head space, which means the internal pressure of one just left to sit will cycle with temperature during the course of a day, and over time that can put moisture in your fuel system, too. If it's going to be sitting over 6 months, use a fuel stabilizer like Stabil to keep the gas fresh.

[thackney]

Ethanol bad (as a fuel)
Butanol good

Why is more toxic and more expensive considered good?

[driftdiver]

Gas has more energy per volume than ethanol, however an ICE extracts more energy per volume from ethanol than it does from gasoline.   Mileage is not about how much energy is contained in the fuel, it's about how much makes it to the driveshaft.

@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

I'd really like to see some sources for those claims.  Every car I've driven using ethanol has gotten worse mileage.

From what I've read ethanol burns hotter than gasoline but is no more efficient. 

[SZonian]

Uhm, yeah, sure.

That must be why I saw about a 16% decrease in mpg in my truck when they started ethanol here and why my lawnmower had to have the carb disassembled so I could remove a white paste from it...

to the ethanol industry...

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

I'd really like to see some sources for those claims.  Every car I've driven using ethanol has gotten worse mileage.

From what I've read ethanol burns hotter than gasoline but is no more efficient.

I said:  "an ICE extracts more energy per volume from ethanol than it does from gasoline", which is worded very poorly to the point of being wrong.  What I meant to say was that they extract a higher percentage of the available energy in ethanol. 

A lot of people say that because ethanol has around 30% less BTU/gal that automatically means you'll get less milage from ethanol.  But that is completely ignoring the fact that  some of those BTUs go right out the tailpipe, so you need to compare both the amount of energy and how efficiently that energy can be extracted to find the total amount of usable energy.  Note that I'm not saying ethanol provides higher milage, just that only comparing one variable is inadequate to make a conclusion..

I've never seen anything about ethanol burning hotter, probably because it burns much cooler.  But this article, which seems to lay out the pros and cons in a pretty balanced fashion, suggests a possible reason for such claims (the same paragraph also hints at why my older vehicles got slightly lower MPG with ethanol, but my current truck doesn't show any difference at all): 

http://extension.psu.edu/publications/ee0097

[Elderberry]

Alcohol Fuel Conversion – Double Duty Engineering
Written by Jeff Huneycutt on September 1, 2003

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0309-alcohol-fuel-conversion/

To run effectively, an alcohol motor needs to burn approximately twice as much fuel as a gasoline motor.

In addition to its complete inability to live in harmony with oil, alcohol also requires other considerations when switching over from gasoline. One factor is that the ideal air/fuel ratio for alcohol is around 7:1, more than twice that of gasoline which burns best at a ratio of 14.5:1.

Another factor is that alcohol is more resistant to detonation and can typically live with a higher compression ratio. This is because it burns cooler and much more fuel is traveling through the combustion chamber than a gas engine.

[Forum member]

Sadly, the way to scavenge the moisture out of the fuel system is to add even more ethanol. Wait until the tank is down and add a bottle of Heet (NOT ISO-Heet), it comes in a yellow bottle. That will absorb water in the system and you can 'burn' it with the ethanol. Then, fill it with the no ethanol gas. If there is an in-line fuel filter, I'd replace that also, because water tends to settle in such, only to expand and cause problems when it freezes.

You should be able to either get a rebuild kit for the carb or another carb, and get the golf cart back up and running again, provided it doesn't have other troubles.

One other thing, it pays to keep fuel tanks full, because there is less room for contracting fuel and vapor to pull in moisture through the vent in the fuel cap. An empty tank will have more head space, which means the internal pressure of one just left to sit will cycle with temperature during the course of a day, and over time that can put moisture in your fuel system, too. If it's going to be sitting over 6 months, use a fuel stabilizer like Stabil to keep the gas fresh.

I added Heet last winter but since it never ran, it didn't circulate into the lines and filter. I'm sure there was an ice plug now, probably in the filter. She has been driving it all spring. It will have premium gas and I'll replace the filter.

The golf cart was parked in the weeds because we bought a diesel Mule with a snowplow. Maybe someday I will rebuild it.

Thanks.

[roamer_1]

I have been running 91 octane no ethanol gas in the fleet. I get about 15% better gas mileage and have only had one fuel pump go out (at 130k miles). Considering the cost of replacing fuel system components, and that one of the vehicles turned 30 this year, I don't mind paying extra. All the small engines run on no ethanol fuel, too, now, after I replaced a couple of carburetors.

Likewise. Nothing but Conoco/Union76/Sinclair premium, thank you very much.