"It's Over Folks" The Neocons & The "Deep State" Have Neutered The Trump Presidency

[Jazzhead]

I fell in love with Mike Pence during the VP debate - enthralled by him, and I felt Trump made an awesome choice in picking him.  I hate to say it, but now I am having doubts.  I hope I'm wrong.

I'm a yuge Pence fan.  The best thing Trump ever did was picking him as his running mate.   I think Pence has the potential to be the most influential conservative since Ronald Reagan. 

And that's why I say,  as the nascent administration faces the furies spawned by its initial recklessness,  that Pence's integrity and good name must be protected.  Yes, for that reason alone Flynn had to go.   

[Bigun]

Two words: Ben Rhodes. More information is needed, but it's looking like "Genocide" Rhodes is intimately involved and may be the source of the leaks. That slimy verminous insect is the same friggin' Eightball bast*rd who admitted to making up the story about how Iran supposedly had a "moderate faction" which would be strengthened by the odious (yea, treasonous) Iran Nuclear Treaty-that-was-not-a-treaty. That same sub-human strunz was also instrumental in the  Benghazi disaster and subsequent cover-up. 

Too much is obscure about how this all went down. It may be a political assassination or it may be a case of Flynn losing situational awareness (the classic scenario of a man not used to politics being lured into executing a defacto cover-up for actions that most likely did not require one.

History is rich with far-more egregious actions by U.S. government officials ultra vires, probably the most heinous of which was when Splash Kennedy sent his personal political agent to Russia at the height of the cold war and offered a quid-pro-quo to the Soviet leadership where he and the 'Crats would further the USSR's  causes in Congress in exchange for their support of his and other 'Crat's political campaigns (during the Reagan years). Kennedy should rightly have been prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned for that act (in addition to being convicted of murder by gross negligence / DUI of Mary Jo Kopechne).

So it's possible Flynn panicked because of a lack of experience dealing with political intrigues.

Excellent post!  Well said!   

[LateForLunch]

   Granted @jpsb there are a lot of anti-American Trump haters out there, more importantly, there are a significant amount of pro-American Trump haters also and they are citizens that VOTE.

   I don't hate him and I want him to succeed, the earlier the better, it's been a rocky start which does not surprise me in the least, I never thought he was as great as you think he is AND due to his known character deficiencies , never will.

Much of that is fairly stated but look at the facts, sieur! If one is going to complain about "rocky starts" would it not be appropriate to remain aware of where the rocks are falling from?

The obstructionism of the Trump transition is unprecedented. No other president in history has had to sustain this level of obstructionism. Obama's entire cabinet was in place by now, but we are still witnessing strident procedural foot-dragging and pointless (except for political grand-standing/fund raising) monkey-wrench tossing by the 'Crats.

Now add to that people possibly committing felonies in the bureaucracy by leaking intelligence from wiretaps of government communications between U.S. citizens.

Point of legal information: Even though leaking information about Flynn's communication with his Russian counterpart was almost certainly not illegal in itself (because Flynn was communicating with a foreigner), but releasing information about conversations between Flynn and Pence or Flynn and president Trump is likely a serious crime because it was derived from government sources intended to remain top secret and so represents disseminating illegally-obtained information the minute it is used to damage or harm someone personally or politically.

Credit and blame are flip sides of the same coin. So let's make sure that they both fall in the appropriate spots.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Much of that is fairly stated but look at the facts, sister. If one is going to complain about "rocky starts" would it not be appropriate to remain aware of where the rocks are falling from?

The obstructionism of the Trump transition is unprecedented. No other president in history has had to sustain this level of obstructionism. Obama's entire cabinet was in place by now, but we are still witnessing strident procedural foot-dragging and pointless (except for political grand-standing/fund raising) monkey-wrench tossing by the 'Crats.

Now add to that people possibly committing felonies in the bureaucracy by leaking intelligence from wiretaps of government communications between U.S. citizens.

Point of legal information: Even though leaking information about Flynn's communication with his Russian counterpart was almost certainly not illegal in itself (because Flynn was communicating with a foreigner), but releasing information about conversations between Flynn and Pence or Flynn and president Trump is likely a serious crime because it was derived from government sources intended to remain top secret and so represents disseminating illegally-obtained information the minute it is used to damage or harm someone personally or politically.

Credit and blame are flip sides of the same coin. So let's make sure that they both fall in the appropriate spots.

Good points. At least it's not still being held up in the courts like Bush. Since then a complete scorched earth attitude has become the new normal for the Democrats.

[Cyber Liberty]

Much of that is fairly stated but look at the facts, sister.

@corbe is a male of the species....

[Wingnut]

@corbe is a male of the species....

Now you did it. You outed him!

[Cyber Liberty]

Good points. At least it's not still being held up in the courts like Bush. Since then a complete scorched earth attitude has become the new normal for the Democrats.

I agree with you, and it's a major problem that is the central cause of the "gridlock" we see in DeeCee.  The Republicans have figured out that compromising with Dems just eventually gives the Dems everything they want.  Seeing that, the Dems have shifted tactics to "All or nothing."

[jpsb]

Flynn lied to the Vice President, who in turned repeated the lie to the American people.

Flynn did not lie to the VP, that is Fake News. Flynn said he did not discuss sanction with the Russian Ambassador and he didn't. The Russian ambassador brought up sanctions and Flynn said we will be reviewing that along we quite a few other things. That is NOT discussing sanctions.

[jpsb]

Flynn needed to resign because he lied to Pence.  Pence I'm sure forced the issue out of embarrassment and didn't want further backlash.  Those that leaked the information should be held responsible. 

We are witnessing Bammy's shadow government succeeding.

@libertybele

Why was Pence sticking his nose into this matter in the first place? Was he part of the "establishment" that wanted Flynn's head? Flynn was doing his job in a proper and responsible manner. The wagons should have been circled, instead Pence makes a big deal over NOTHING.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,249515.0.html

[jpsb]

And, why hasn't Pence said anything?  He's at the epicenter of this whole thing and is allegedly the agent who caused Flynn's resignation.

Very good question

[Jazzhead]

Flynn in his own words said he provided "incomplete" information to Pence.  Now I grant you your point, jpsb -  that may not have been a lie since Flynn said he did so "inadvertently".    But the fact remains that the incident hung Pence out to dry,  and up until almost the very end Trump's spokesperson said that Trump was standing behind Flynn.

What changed?   The only thing that makes sense to me was a demand from Pence to jettison the fellow.   I'm pleased to see Pence, who has the experienced eye for optics and damage control that Trump lacks,  having such apparent influence in the White House.   He's the future, folks.   

But I fully agree with those who say the real villains are the assh0le spooks that apparently engineered a political assassination by mendacious leaks to Trump's enemies in the press.   For the Dems, the ends justify the means, but for the rest of us,  the spooks threaten our democratic republic far more than Trump ever could.   

[Sanguine]

Flynn did not lie to the VP, that is Fake News. Flynn said he did not discuss sanction with the Russian Ambassador and he didn't. The Russian ambassador brought up sanctions and Flynn said we will be reviewing that along we quite a few other things. That is NOT discussing sanctions.

Thanks.  I got tired of rebutting that.

[r9etb]

I posted the most in dept article I read on the incident HERE. Have a look at it, for the life of me I still can't figure out what Flynn did wrong. So I am thinking something else must be going on. But based on what I know now I am losing my trust in Mike Pence.

He did at least two things wrong. 

First, he "inadvertently" misled the Vice President.  I doubt it -- "inadvertently" is as good an un-provable excuse as "I don't recall."  But he did leave out information, and he did mislead the Vice President.

Second, "Flynn talked about sanctions, but no specific promises were made. Flynn was speaking more in general 'maybe we'll take a look at this going forward' terms."

Sorry, but that's a negotiation step, and he wasn't authorized to make it.  And apparently he failed to tell the VP about even that.

[Jazzhead]

I posted the most in dept article I read on the incident HERE. Have a look at it, for the life of me I still can't figure out what Flynn did wrong. So I am thinking something else must be going on. But based on what I know now I am losing my trust in Mike Pence.

I doubt very much that Flynn violated the Logan Act (and if he did, he did nothing different than what Obama's transition team did when it contacted Syria's dictator (Assad) to assure him that Bush's policies would be changed.)   What he may have done wrong (that is, legally speaking) is lie to or mislead the FBI when it questioned him about contacts. 

But Pence WAS hung out to dry,  and Flynn admits as much.  Like I said, Pence is the future,  and conservatives need to protect him and encourage his greater influence among the Trump cowboys.     

[Cripplecreek]

The saddest  thing about this so called "Deep state" is the fact that you fools continue to ignore the biggest most dangerous group of them all.

Capitol hill staffers are nothing more than in house lobbyists who actually sit down and make the deals and write the bills. As John Conyers let slip a few years ago about Obamacare. "You can't expect us to read all of these bills, that's what staffers are for".

Such things aren't nearly as exciting to the conspiracy minded.

[Cyber Liberty]

The saddest  thing about this so called "Deep state" is the fact that you fools continue to ignore the biggest most dangerous group of them all.

Capitol hill staffers are nothing more than in house lobbyists who actually sit down and make the deals and write the bills. As John Conyers let slip a few years ago about Obamacare. "You can't expect us to read all of these bills, that's what staffers are for".

Such things aren't nearly as exciting to the conspiracy minded.

@Cripplecreek
I've been assuming all this time they've been referring to the staffers.  Everything you said about them is spot on.

[Bigun]

@Cripplecreek
I've been assuming all this time they've been referring to the staffers.  Everything you said about them is spot on.

Swamp critters!  Every last one of them!

[Cripplecreek]

@Cripplecreek
I've been assuming all this time they've been referring to the staffers.  Everything you said about them is spot on.

A lot of people seem to have the impression that staffers are fresh faced idealistic kids fresh out of school. In reality they're more likely to be a corporate attorney or other upper level corporate people.

I'm not going to hunt down the name right now but one that really clued me in to the way the game worked was a John McCain chief of staff. She came from a DC lobbying firm to work in the public sector as McCain's chief of staff. She returned to the private sector as vice CEO of Boeing for a few years. The last I knew she had returned to Washington and was staff director for republican staffers on the US senate defense committee. Some of these elected officials have staffs of dozens of people.

Not all of them are bad. When Allen West was in office he had a half dozen veterans working for him with a couple of them being veterans affairs lobbyists. Last I knew, my congressman had a staff of 3. The democrats are a real horror show with staffs full of environmental attorneys, pro choicers, union attorneys and organizers.

The problem I have with the intelligence community was exposed during the fight over domestic spying exposed by Edward Snowden. I started researching guy who were testifying like James Clapper and found that they were all stepping back and forth between the public and private sector.  Both democrat and GOP NSA appointees all seemed to have a history of working for Booz-Allen, the same company that Edward Snowden worked for.

Look at John Brennan. During the 08 election Candidate passport files were breached. The media immediately blamed someone connected to John McCain but it turned out to be Brennan's company so the media dropped it but look where Brennan ended up.                                                                                                                                                         

[DCPatriot]

Flynn did not lie to the VP, that is Fake News.

Flynn said he did not discuss sanction with the Russian Ambassador and he didn't.

The Russian ambassador brought up sanctions and Flynn said we will be reviewing that along we quite a few other things.

That is NOT discussing sanctions.

Exactly, right.

What I think happened here is like @Jazzhead said...Trump was forced to protect his VP, over another individual.

It might be that VP Pence is the dunderhead here.  Perhaps he took the interview very lightly...essentially taking his cue from the rave reviews and resume.  Everybody was high on him.  He was Mattis' twin.

Pence might feel he has to keep up with Trump.  He can't.   "A man's got to know his limitations"...Harry Callahan

[skeeter]

The saddest  thing about this so called "Deep state" is the fact that you fools continue to ignore the biggest most dangerous group of them all.

Capitol hill staffers are nothing more than in house lobbyists who actually sit down and make the deals and write the bills. As John Conyers let slip a few years ago about Obamacare. "You can't expect us to read all of these bills, that's what staffers are for".

Such things aren't nearly as exciting to the conspiracy minded.

Its not so much ignoring them as it is accepting it as something that just is and focusing on something that that offers hope for reform through the ballot box, illusory as that may be.

Congresspeople are locked in to their jobs ("my congressman is fine - its the rest that suck"), and so are their staffers.

I don't think that'll change, at least in my lifetime.





How can this problem be remedied?

[Cyber Liberty]

A lot of people seem to have the impression that staffers are fresh faced idealistic kids fresh out of school. In reality they're more likely to be a corporate attorney or other upper level corporate people.

I'm not going to hunt down the name right now but one that really clued me in to the way the game worked was a John McCain chief of staff. She came from a DC lobbying firm to work in the public sector as McCain's chief of staff. She returned to the private sector as vice CEO of Boeing for a few years. The last I knew she had returned to Washington and was staff director for republican staffers on the US senate defense committee. Some of these elected officials have staffs of dozens of people.

Not all of them are bad. When Allen West was in office he had a half dozen veterans working for him with a couple of them being veterans affairs lobbyists. Last I knew, my congressman had a staff of 3. The democrats are a real horror show with staffs full of environmental attorneys, pro choicers, union attorneys and organizers.

The problem I have with the intelligence community was exposed during the fight over domestic spying exposed by Edward Snowden. I started researching guy who were testifying like James Clapper and found that they were all stepping back and forth between the public and private sector.  Both democrat and GOP NSA appointees all seemed to have a history of working for Booz-Allen, the same company that Edward Snowden worked for.

Look at John Brennan. During the 08 election Candidate passport files were breached. The media immediately blamed someone connected to John McCain but it turned out to be Brennan's company so the media dropped it but look where Brennan ended up.                                                                                                                                                       

More stuff, more spot-on.  They number in the thousands on the Hill.

[Cyber Liberty]

Its not so much ignoring them as it is accepting it as something that just is and focusing on something that that offers hope for reform through the ballot box, illusory as that may be.

Congresspeople are locked in to their jobs ("my congressman is fine - its the rest that suck"), and so are their staffers.

I don't think that'll change, at least in my lifetime.





How can this problem be remedied?

Institute this rule, for starters:  No lobbying for 7 years after leaving employment by Congress, Executive or Judicial, and being a Lobbyist is an automatic disqualification from ever working in those branches.

[Sanguine]

Its not so much ignoring them as it is accepting it as something that just is and focusing on something that that offers hope for reform through the ballot box, illusory as that may be.

Congresspeople are locked in to their jobs ("my congressman is fine - its the rest that suck"), and so are their staffers.

I don't think that'll change, at least in my lifetime.





How can this problem be remedied?

The fact that McCain, McConnell and Graham all got reelected certainly proves that point.

[skeeter]

Institute this rule, for starters:  No lobbying for 7 years after leaving employment by Congress, Executive or Judicial, and being a Lobbyist is an automatic disqualification from ever working in those branches.

Thats fine but you'll still have the problem of career staffers unaccountable to the voters who write law.

I'm thinking congressional term limits with the entire office clearing out with you when you go may be the only answer.

Of course they'll scream about the brain drain but I'd rather the senators and congresspeople write their own damn laws anyway.

Maybe the result will be fewer of em.

[Sanguine]

Institute this rule, for starters:  No lobbying for 7 years after leaving employment by Congress, Executive or Judicial, and being a Lobbyist is an automatic disqualification from ever working in those branches.

Seems like term limits would help in this area too - many, many more people who would be ex-congresspeople, and it would very much lessen each one's individual influence.