Author Topic: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]  (Read 4081 times)

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Offline endicom

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Jan. 25, 2017

There's a frustrating game that the left plays with conservatives. It's an Alinksy tactic called, "Make them live up to their values." Now, living up to one's values isn't a bad thing, but setting high standards ultimately means that you'll sometimes fall short.

The left loves to exploit these shortcomings--every Christian who falls short of perfection is a hypocrite; the social values candidate you voted for just got arrested for drunk driving. Haha, everything you believe and advocate is now discredited.

They got away with it for years, waving away the lies, hypocrisy, indiscretions, and criminal behavior from their own politicians while beating the right mercilessly with the missteps of their own. It's effective because the right always maintains a baseline of integrity not displayed by the left, as evidenced by comparing what happens to Republican politicians when they're caught in criminal behavior with what happens to Democrats. Republican voters and politicians reluctantly dump the malefactor while Democrats defend their guy and launch an offensive against those demand accountability.

More... http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=368084


Love it or hate it, a good read.

Offline Ghost Bear

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2017, 04:16:13 am »
I literally don't care what Donald Trump does because nothing he can do is worse than what they've already done.

Well, I guess we'll find out eventually....
Let it burn.

Offline endicom

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2017, 05:31:37 am »
Ace has hit the nail on the head.  I am having great fun watching Trump dish it to the liberals.  They are so deserving of Trump.


I enjoy watching so many go publicly batscat crazy. I wouldn't want to be associated with such lunacy and hope that's true of others.

Offline endicom

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2017, 05:53:39 am »
This comment, apparently by the OP...

"118 In my heart of hearts, I am a libertarian.

I literally do not care what other people do so long as they don't harm others. I just want to be left alone to live my life and raise my children as I feel fit.

But they won't let me do that.

So, bleep it. Time to fight."

...says a lot. Reasonable people didn't turn this into a battle for survival but they now are forced to fight the battle.

Offline EC

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2017, 09:46:54 am »
While my principles are just that - principles and not mere hobbies to be discarded if inconvenient - I find nothing in them that prevents me enjoying watching the Left scream and rage impotently.

The Dems wanted Trump. They crossed over in the primaries in droves to vote for him. They got him.

May they choke on him.
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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2017, 11:34:14 am »
And the next democrat will be worse.

Silver Pines

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2017, 03:42:34 pm »
From the article:

" I literally don't care what Donald Trump does because nothing he can do is worse than what they've already done.'

Yeah, no.

If you allow the left to push you and intimidate you into throwing away your values, then you've become their puppet.  You've given up and become a person who simply reacts to their every move.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2017, 03:46:15 pm »
While my principles are just that - principles and not mere hobbies to be discarded if inconvenient - I find nothing in them that prevents me enjoying watching the Left scream and rage impotently.

The Dems wanted Trump. They crossed over in the primaries in droves to vote for him. They got him.

May they choke on him.
Yep!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2017, 03:48:18 pm »
And the next democrat will be worse.
You may well be right, because they will never see what Obama did as evil, so they won't understand this as the pendulum swinging back the other way.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline r9etb

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2017, 03:55:16 pm »
Hm.

I guess the pseudo-technical term for an article like this would be "political nihilism," or something like that. 

The problem is, we're not good at being like the Left, because we're not of the Left.  We don't have that thirst for power at any cost.  And if we ever do get that thirst, we'll have lost our political soul in the process and the battle becomes meaningless except as a means of destruction.

The article really reminds me of the old saying, “Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”

Our job is harder: it's always harder to preserve and build, than to destroy.  Which just makes the job worth doing.

Ace of Spades can go to hell.

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 05:37:35 pm »
From the article:

" I literally don't care what Donald Trump does because nothing he can do is worse than what they've already done.'

Yeah, no.

If you allow the left to push you and intimidate you into throwing away your values, then you've become their puppet.  You've given up and become a person who simply reacts to their every move.

If you can't beat them, join them is not a statement of victory.

Its a statement of failure.

Offline Resp3

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2017, 05:58:37 pm »
Nice rant.

But he contradicts himself. If he's lost (or losing) his values as per the headline, then what values is he talking about in his last paragraph?


What I will not do is let them play my values against me ever again. I don't need to prove that I'm better than them. I already know it.


Look. If you sink to their level, then they have won. If you use their Alinsky Rules then how are you any better than they are?

We conservatives are held to a higher standard. If you literally don't care what Trump does, then don't come complaining when he does it.

I get the basic sentiments in this rant. I do. We all need to rant and gloat over our enemies. And punish them for what they did. But then we need tp set the course right to make sure future decisions are conservative and correct.


Offline EC

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2017, 06:01:15 pm »
With respect, one minor correction:

We conservatives are held hold ourselves to a higher standard. If you literally don't care what Trump does, then don't come complaining when he does it.

Otherwise, you are singing my song.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2017, 06:24:03 pm »
Look. If you sink to their level, then they have won. If you use their Alinsky Rules then how are you any better than they are?

If you stop at using the Alinsky tactics, then you're no better than they are. 

Alinsky's Rules for Radicals are designed as a means for upsetting and bringing down the existing order.  They're effective, in the same way that rust and dry rot are effective.  They're intrinsically infantile and, as such, it's difficult to form a rational argument to oppose them.

The difficulty we have is in trying to propose and discuss ideas in good faith with opponents who are more interested in destroying us, than they are with considering any ideas other than their own.  They're helped along in this by a media and social-media culture that treats such contests as games to be watched for fun, rather than a discussion of ideas that have consequences. 

Furthermore, we live in a society that, for most of us, lacks much in the way of consequences.  Much of what passes for "concern" these days is essentially cost-free, in the sense that the costs are often not obvious or immediately attributable to specific policies. 

Most of the time, our perceptions of costs and consequences can be expressed only in terms of frustration and a sort of directionless anger at an oppressive-seeming system that generally doesn't work, for reasons we can't quite pin down.  I believe that Trump's campaign and subsequent election was based on recognizing and playing on that dynamic.

Consequences can't be avoided forever and, unfortunately, their return is probably only way we get back to a culture where ideas can be addressed on their merits.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 06:30:10 pm »
Look. If you sink to their level, then they have won. If you use their Alinsky Rules then how are you any better than they are?

Because there is a difference between the political tactics you use to win a fight, and the substantive change you are want to achieve with your victory.  During WW2, there were times when U.S. troops fought enemies who engaged in atrocities, and after a time, some of our troops did the same in response.  It wasn't always a "gentleman's" war.  But the use of those specific tactics did not change the rightness of the cause for which they fought.

Offline r9etb

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 06:39:21 pm »
But the use of those specific tactics did not change the rightness of the cause for which they fought.

But it does surrender the cause if you stay down there at the level of the other side.  Resorting to the use of Alinsky tactics in particular is inimical to the cause itself.  By tearing down the other side, you never get the chance to address the causes you hope to fight for.  All your energy goes into insults and destruction.

Our present political cesspool is proof of what I say.  It's well-nigh impossible for anybody in politics on either side to actually discuss important issues in a way that moves us forward.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 06:55:40 pm »
But it does surrender the cause if you stay down there at the level of the other side.  Resorting to the use of Alinsky tactics in particular is inimical to the cause itself.  By tearing down the other side, you never get the chance to address the causes you hope to fight for.  All your energy goes into insults and destruction.

But that's not necessarily true.  We're seeing right before our eyes that Trump is signing highly-substantive orders regarding deregulation, immigration, etc..  He's doing more substance in his first week than any President in recent memory.  And he's going to be nominating a new Justice for SCOTUS, etc..  That's addressing the causes for which we fight.

I understand your point, but I'd suggest that Trump may be what is referred to as sui generis in legal terms -- a kind of unique political leader who doesn't fit into the normal classifications.  He stands alone as the target, and separate to some extent from the rest of the GOP and conservative movement.  What that does is enable the rest of us to actually engage in enacting substantive issues while he runs the interference on the PC left.  They're so busy expending all their ammo on him personally that a whole lot of really important stuff may actually get done.

Quote
Our present political cesspool is proof of what I say.

But the left has deliberately dragged us into that cesspool as a tool to silence opposition.  To quote Mattis, we don't get to declare a war over -- the enemy gets a vote too.  And the left went after Reagan and Dubya with terms and tactics that were guttural.  We tried being nice in response, and the result has been an acceleration of the leftist incrementalism that is killing this country.  The cesspool is going to exist no matter what because that's what the left wants.  Having someone who fights back against that actually gives more breathing room for those of us who want to fight on the issues.

Check out Scott Adams' essay on outrage dilution -- he hits this point really well.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,245606.0.html

 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 06:59:40 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

geronl

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 07:03:21 pm »
Freedom from... conservatism?

Freedom from integrity, honesty, truth....


Offline endicom

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 07:07:19 pm »
If you can't beat them, join them is not a statement of victory.

Its a statement of failure.


Whose failure? The failure is a done deal.

Offline r9etb

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 07:19:24 pm »
I understand your point, but I'd suggest that Trump may be what is referred to as sui generis in legal terms -- a kind of unique political leader who doesn't fit into the normal classifications.  He stands alone as the target, and separate to some extent from the rest of the GOP and conservative movement.  What that does is enable the rest of us to actually engage in enacting substantive issues while he runs the interference on the PC left.  They're so busy expending all their ammo on him personally that a whole lot of really important stuff may actually get done.

I don't share your optimism on that.  The kind of battles Trump is waging, and the hysterical behavior of the left,  tends to suck all of the air out of the room.  Just as in the primaries and general election, there was simply no room in the public forums for anything except Trump's petty insults and the responses to them.  Anything the GOP says or does, gets filtered through Trump's behavior. 

And it has to be said that the GOP hasn't done a very good job of being adult and responsible in its handling of Congress.

Quote
But the left has deliberately dragged us into that cesspool as a tool to silence opposition.  To quote Mattis, we don't get to declare a war over -- the enemy gets a vote too.  And the left went after Reagan and Dubya with terms and tactics that were guttural.  We tried being nice in response, and the result has been an acceleration of the leftist incrementalism that is killing this country.  The cesspool is going to exist no matter what because that's what the left wants.  Having someone who fights back against that actually gives more breathing room for those of us who want to fight on the issues.

I don't pretend to have an answer.  I can only point out that we have had no success at all in fighting on Alinskyite terms.  First because we're no good at it.  But also because the use of Alinsky tactics is a tar baby: impossible to let go of once you begin to use them.  The more you use them, the more effective the "use their values against them" tactic becomes.  It's easy: "after all you've said about me, don't you dare try to tell me about trying to raise the level of debate, you hypocritical bastard...."

I think the only way this ends, is when real consequences begin to stare us in the face for real.

Quote
Check out Scott Adams' essay on outrage dilution -- he hits this point really well.

It's an interesting article, and the basic tactic was also used to great effect by both Obama and Hillary Clinton in recent years: so many scandals it's impossible to focus on any particular one.

The problem is, though, if they can't focus their fire on Trump for any one thing, then likewise the GOP can't get a word in edgewise to convince anybody of the rightness of whatever substantive changes they propose. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:20:00 pm by r9etb »

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2017, 07:37:39 pm »
It's an interesting article, and the basic tactic was also used to great effect by both Obama and Hillary Clinton in recent years: so many scandals it's impossible to focus on any particular one.

But they're not all "scandals" -- not even close.  A lot of them are actually very substantive actions, from the rollback of regulations, to the approval of the Keystone XL pipeline, to the actions he's taken on immigration.  The truth is that the American people actually support a lot of those things, and the Democrats simply can't focus on all of them -- plus the stupid tweets -- at the same time.  So, they can't mount PR campaigns to distort what he is doing, and can't shift enough opinion to stop him.

Quote
The problem is, though, if they can't focus their fire on Trump for any one thing, then likewise the GOP can't get a word in edgewise to convince anybody of the rightness of whatever substantive changes they propose.

We won the only argument that mattered on November 8, and control both houses and the Presidency.  And if what we are doing truly is the right thing to do, then it will be successful, and can be sold as successful to the voters after it has been enacted.  But for now, the most important thing to do is just to get stuff done.  And that seems to be happening so far.


Offline r9etb

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2017, 08:03:29 pm »
But they're not all "scandals" -- not even close. 

I wasn't suggesting they were.  I was merely noting that the dynamic Adams described relative to Trump's activities, can be effectively used.  In the case of Obama and Clinton, it was real scandals.  The media are trying to convince us that Trump's activities are likewise scandals, whether or not they actually are.  (A look at the Niagara of "isn't Trump icky" posts on Facebook is a great example.)


Quote
We won the only argument that mattered on November 8, and control both houses and the Presidency.  And if what we are doing truly is the right thing to do, then it will be successful, and can be sold as successful to the voters after it has been enacted.  But for now, the most important thing to do is just to get stuff done.  And that seems to be happening so far.

I don't agree.  On Nov. 8, "we" won the right to attempt to get things done.  But the actual doing of them still requires political action, and even within the GOP there is not the sort of unanimity about Trump's actions that guarantee victory.  Beyond that, as a group the congress-critters of the GOP haven't normally demonstrated the kind of political courage required to do things in the face of a hysterical media response.

Offline EasyAce

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2017, 08:20:38 pm »
On Nov. 8, "we" won the right to attempt to get things done.  But the actual doing of them still requires political action, and even within the GOP there is not the sort of unanimity about Trump's actions that guarantee victory.  Beyond that, as a group the congress-critters of the GOP haven't normally demonstrated the kind of political courage required to do things in the face of a hysterical media response.

If you remove the media response, hysterical or otherwise, there's another dilemna: not just whether the Republican Congress
would have the courage to "do things" (there's plenty to be said for the argument that we're a lot safer and freer when the
government doesn't "do things") but whether they would have the courage to stand up and repel Donaldus Minimus's
most fancifully unconstitutional propositions when they come---much as they lacked the courage to stand up and repel
George W. Bush's and Barack Obama's periodic floutings of the Constitution and ongoing metastases of big government.

(Though there's also something to be said for arguing that, yes, Bush and Obama flouted the Constitution when it suited
them but at least they knew what they were flouting, whereby Donaldus Minimus is such a constitutional pygmy he
almost wouldn't know when he was flouting the Constitution!)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:21:47 pm by EasyAce »


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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2017, 08:28:31 pm »
I don't agree.  On Nov. 8, "we" won the right to attempt to get things done.  But the actual doing of them still requires political action, and even within the GOP there is not the sort of unanimity about Trump's actions that guarantee victory.  Beyond that, as a group the congress-critters of the GOP haven't normally demonstrated the kind of political courage required to do things in the face of a hysterical media response.

I would agree that if/when we get to the point where we need to use that kind of political persuasion on a GOP member of Congress, a different tone will be needed.  But part of the point is the "hysterical media response" gets diluted precisely because some of this other stuff is going on.  And I do think that by pushing the envelope, Trump effectively makes other GOP actions look more reasonable/less controversial by comparison, and can provide more cover to substantive political actions by Congress.

To some extent, Trump is what we used to refer to as a "sh*tscreen", because he acts as a magnet for anyone looking to give others a hard time, which leaves everyone else relatively unmolested.  I would never have settled on that as a political strategy, but so far it actually appears to be working.  As of right now, it looks like all of Trump's cabinet nominees are going to be confirmed, which is something that not even Obama could achieve with a compliant Senate.  And I think part of the reason for that is when Republicans have to deal with "normal" controversies like cabinet confirmations, it is almost a relief from the diet of "vote fraud" and other issues, so they cut him a break.

Maybe I'm wrong.  But I've never seen someone go so strongly against conventional thinking and actually be this successful.  So I'm at least willing to let this play out and see how it goes.




Online andy58-in-nh

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Re: How Losing My Political Values Helped Me Gain My Freedom [Warden]
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2017, 08:33:10 pm »
Alinsky's Rules for Radicals are designed as a means for upsetting and bringing down the existing order.  They're effective, in the same way that rust and dry rot are effective.  They're intrinsically infantile and, as such, it's difficult to form a rational argument to oppose them.
That's a good starting point for an analogy, however, I would argue that rust and dry rot are not "infantile", but just like Alisky's
Rules they are essentially corrosive, in that they depend on the pure nature of that which they propose to destroy.

Rust works most effectively on wet, exposed iron, dry rot feats on fresh, bare wood, and Alinsky preys on unassuming, decent people. His Rules depend for their success not upon the corruption of their targets, but rather upon their decency.

In this instance, the act of making people "live up to their own book of rules" assumes that one's target has such a guide, and that the person so targeted actually cares about observing it - which means that they have both standards and virtues. Hypocrisy, it has been said, is the tribute that vice pays to virtue. But in the absence of virtue: what is left to rot?
"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn