Author Topic: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today  (Read 63427 times)

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Offline Mom MD

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #200 on: January 24, 2017, 12:08:55 am »
@Mom MD  @Jazzhead

Regardless of where you come down on this issue, it is still a fact that our Constitution grants the federal government no powers in this area what-so-ever. 

It is entirely a matter that each individual state must decide.

Not entirely sure I agree with you there.  Does the federal government allow the states to decide if fraud or murder are wrong?  But I entirely agree with you there is no right to abortion in the constitution. However our founding documents do speak to a right to life and liberty.
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #201 on: January 24, 2017, 12:15:19 am »
That is your view, as a moral matter.  I do not disagree.   It is not, and cannot be, the legal standard.   A woman cannot be forced by the state to reproduce.   

Opposition to abortion is noble,  but should be grounded in persuasion, not coercion.     

Absolutely.  Well stated.

We all individually detest abortion.  It's murder of an innocent human being in the name of convenience.

But the heavy fist of the Federal government should have no place in the matter. 
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #202 on: January 24, 2017, 12:22:44 am »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #203 on: January 24, 2017, 08:33:04 am »
It's easy (though welcome/a good thing) to do it overseas. And while it's again, a good thing, Lets see what he does about it HERE in America where he will face the wrath of all liberalism.

And he will face the wrath of millions, and not just from liberals.  And for good reason - personal liberty's a precious commodity for most of us.   

And that's the point I've been trying to make.   I want Trump to prioritize jobs and economic growth.   I think he's got some excellent ideas, and most of them are going to need the cooperation of Congress.   But there's nothing more poisonous to political comity than the abortion issue.   It's a snakepit,  and I for one wish Trump would tell the social conservatives to focus their efforts on persuasion and stop trying to roll back Constitutional protections that women have enjoyed for over forty years.   A truce in the abortion wars will free up the kind of goodwill that can get taxes lowered and jobs created. 

And get babies saved.  Pro-lifers are winning  - abortions in the United States are at their lowest level since 1973.   That's because, while abortion is and must remain a legal right, it's a bad choice.   Moral persuasion works,  contraceptive education works, support for adoption works.   We all detest abortion.   But a woman must have the liberty to decide for herself.   Acknowledge that liberty, call a truce in the abortion wars,  and it will be easier than ever to persuade women (and men) to act responsibly and do the right thing.   
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 08:35:48 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #204 on: January 24, 2017, 08:44:20 am »
It is entirely a matter that each individual state must decide.

No, it's entirely a matter for each individual to decide.   

Personal liberty -  I assume you're familiar with the concept, Bigun?   
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #205 on: January 24, 2017, 09:21:58 am »
Does the federal government allow the states to decide if fraud or murder are wrong? 

Yes! for the most part it does indeed!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #206 on: January 24, 2017, 09:35:21 am »
That's because, while abortion is and must remain a legal right

You keep stating that abortion "must remain" a legal right.  Yet after being asked repeatedly to provide the legal basis for that demand, you come up empty each and every time.

Enough of your tyranny.  There is no difference between your demand and the demands of slave owners prior to the War of Secession other than slave owners actually had a legal basis while you still do not.
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #207 on: January 24, 2017, 09:38:14 am »
No, it's entirely a matter for each individual to decide.   

Personal liberty -  I assume you're familiar with the concept, Bigun?

So if a majority of individuals in a society decide that the protection of unborn life supersedes the right to kill that life out of convenience, you are OK with that?  Or is this where your avocation of tyranny kicks in over the liberty of individuals to shape their society.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #208 on: January 24, 2017, 09:50:35 am »
No, it's entirely a matter for each individual to decide.   

Personal liberty -  I assume you're familiar with the concept, Bigun?

Yes I am! Very familiar in fact!

And YOU are entirely wrong when you say that the states cannot regulate abortion! They most assuredly can and should.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #209 on: January 24, 2017, 09:52:52 am »
Oh goody!!  Not even a week in office and already wasting political capital Charlie Brown style.  Like moths to the flame, republicans take a victory and start throwing it away. 

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #210 on: January 24, 2017, 10:24:17 am »
So if a majority of individuals in a society decide that the protection of unborn life supersedes the right to kill that life out of convenience, you are OK with that?  Or is this where your avocation of tyranny kicks in over the liberty of individuals to shape their society.

You make no sense.  You compare legal abortion to legal slavery.  Yet here you seem to be advocating the "liberty of individuals to shape their society", presumably to ban abortion.    But you decry the actions of "society" a couple hundred years ago to deny African-Americans their fundamental liberty.

We all agree that African-Americans are entitled to their liberty, and that slavery is wrong.   So why not the same for women?   Why should the state impress a woman into servitude by forcing her to carry to term an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy?       
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #211 on: January 24, 2017, 10:42:16 am »
You make no sense.  You compare legal abortion to legal slavery.  Yet here you seem to be advocating the "liberty of individuals to shape their society", presumably to ban abortion.    But you decry the actions of "society" a couple hundred years ago to deny African-Americans their fundamental liberty.

We all agree that African-Americans are entitled to their liberty, and that slavery is wrong.   So why not the same for women?   Why should the state impress a woman into servitude by forcing her to carry to term an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy?     

So.  You still haven't told us why you think abortion is wrong.


Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #212 on: January 24, 2017, 11:00:49 am »
You make no sense.  You compare legal abortion to legal slavery.  Yet here you seem to be advocating the "liberty of individuals to shape their society", presumably to ban abortion.    But you decry the actions of "society" a couple hundred years ago to deny African-Americans their fundamental liberty.

We all agree that African-Americans are entitled to their liberty, and that slavery is wrong.   So why not the same for women?   Why should the state impress a woman into servitude by forcing her to carry to term an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy?     

Jazzhead is the same one who called Trump a fascist never mind earlier, now he/she professes to be concerned about wading into the abortion debate.

Now, continues to get snarky about personal liberty and never came up with a simple yes or no answer on whether he/she is against US taxpayer dollars going overseas to fund abortion

Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #213 on: January 24, 2017, 11:05:30 am »
Quote
We all agree that African-Americans are entitled to their liberty, and that slavery is wrong.   So why not the same for women?   Why should the state impress a woman into servitude by forcing her to carry to term an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy?     

But the unborn have no right to liberty? But sometimes if a pregnant woman is killed, the killer is charged with 2 murders. So goes JH's argument.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #214 on: January 24, 2017, 11:07:46 am »

Now, continues to get snarky about personal liberty and never came up with a simple yes or no answer on whether he/she is against US taxpayer dollars going overseas to fund abortion

I have no objection to stopping "US taxpayer dollars going overseas to fund abortion", whatever that means.  That's a sop to social conservatives who are obsessed with this issue. 

  I have no interest in "funding" abortion generally, so long as the right remains legal.   The point I'm trying to make is that if Trump wants to succeed, he'll forget about the abortion issue and concentrate on jobs and economic growth.   The abortion wars are the shoals on which conservative policy will be wrecked. 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 11:08:49 am by Jazzhead »
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Offline chae

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #215 on: January 24, 2017, 11:11:41 am »
@Jazzhead

Is murder wrong? Yes or no.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #216 on: January 24, 2017, 11:12:23 am »
But the unborn have no right to liberty? But sometimes if a pregnant woman is killed, the killer is charged with 2 murders. So goes JH's argument.

An nonviable fetus has no legal rights vis a vis the mother.   You are addressing a different issue,  rights that exist vis a vis a third party tortfeasor.  Such rights are derivative of the mother's rights - she wanted her unborn child, and the tortfeasor's action took it away.   
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #217 on: January 24, 2017, 11:12:46 am »
I have no objection to stopping "US taxpayer dollars going overseas to fund abortion", whatever that means.  That's a sop to social conservatives who are obsessed with this issue. 

  I have no interest in "funding" abortion generally, so long as the right remains legal.   The point I'm trying to make is that if Trump wants to succeed, he'll forget about the abortion issue and concentrate on jobs and economic growth.   The abortion wars are the shoals on which conservative policy will be wrecked.


You keep saying this.  And you keep saying abortion is "wrong."  But you never say why it's wrong.  Why is it wrong? 

Are you going to answer that simple question? 

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #218 on: January 24, 2017, 11:12:51 am »
@Jazzhead

Is murder wrong? Yes or no.

Abortion is not murder.
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Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #219 on: January 24, 2017, 11:14:32 am »
74% of Americans percent want to ban 2nd, 3rd trimester abortions: poll
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/americans-support-supreme-court-ruling-to-restrict-abortion-oppose-taxpayer

US may have ultra-liberal abortion laws.

France, no abortions after 12 weeks.  Germany and even Holland have waiting periods for abortions.

Again, I hate to say someone may not be informed on the issue,  but indeed, the US might be way behind others.

So, indeed, if one is arguing the abortions laws in the US, one may be arguing for a savagery that is not found in other countries.

One can see the conditions on performing abortions per wikipedia for each country.

This is why one poster, oversimplifies this whole topic it appears.

And a good number of people in the US want stricter abortion laws as the above headline shows.

Offline chae

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #220 on: January 24, 2017, 11:16:24 am »
As I said before, I'm watching JH here mans-plaining to women about women's rights.  It's incredibly condescending.
Of course lots of males love abortion, it lets them have consequence-free sex and they don't even have to use a condom!

Offline chae

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #221 on: January 24, 2017, 11:17:21 am »
@Jazzhead

Nice try at deflection.  That was not the question.,  Is murder wrong, yes or no.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #222 on: January 24, 2017, 11:18:28 am »

You keep saying this.  And you keep saying abortion is "wrong."  But you never say why it's wrong.  Why is it wrong? 

Are you going to answer that simple question?

It is morally wrong, in most circumstances, in my opinion.  But what right do I have to impose my moral values on a woman who is unexpectedly pregnant?  It is her body, her burden.   She has the right to decide for herself whether to carry the child to term. 

Persuade her to do the right thing.  Why are you lack the confidence that you would be able to do so?   Why do you insist that the state treat the woman as a murderer?   Would you cheer if the state sent your daughter to prison for life?   That is,  you know, the usual penalty for premeditated murder.     
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #223 on: January 24, 2017, 11:18:57 am »
@Jazzhead

Nice try at deflection.  That was not the question.,  Is murder wrong, yes or no.

You needn't push him there.  He says abortion is "wrong."  He just doesn't say why.

I think he's afraid that if he does say why he thinks abortion is wrong, his entire argument collapses.


Offline Jazzhead

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Re: Trump Signs First Anti Abortion Legislation Today
« Reply #224 on: January 24, 2017, 11:19:22 am »
@Jazzhead

Nice try at deflection.  That was not the question.,  Is murder wrong, yes or no.

The topic is abortion, not murder.  Abortion is not murder. 
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