Author Topic: ‘Death by GPS’: Officials warn against trusting tech in the wilderness - KSL  (Read 3980 times)

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Offline TomSea

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‘Death by GPS’: Officials warn against trusting tech in the wilderness
By Ladd Egan   |  Updated - Dec 28th, 2016 @ 5:02pm

6PM: ‘Death by GPS’: Officials warn against trusting tech in the wilderness
Ladd Egan, KSL TV

SALT LAKE CITY — Search and rescue teams are warning hikers to not put all of their trust in their GPS devices.

The advice comes after a Pennsylvania family visiting Southern Utah’s Bryce Canyon National Park went down a snow-covered road and became trapped for two days near the North Rim of the Grand Canyon.

Technology can be very helpful, especially in well-populated areas, but when you get out into the vast Utah wilderness, the GPS on your phone can lead you astray. Without a paper map, people can quickly get into danger.

Karen Klein and her family, who were rescued from the North Rim over the holiday weekend, said they were told it happens often. When the Kleins came across a closed road leading to the Grand Canyon, their cell phone offered what looked like an easy alternate route.

Continued: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=42709121&nid=148&title=death-by-gps-officials-warn-against-trusting-tech-in-the-wilderness

Online Smokin Joe

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I have been on a lot of back country roads in a career of working on remote oil drilling locations. Some things to check for:
Type of road: Some parts of the country are extensively traveled by gravel or dirt roads.
 
Gravel roads that are well used tend to be wider, have little or no vegetation growing out of any part of the road, including the crown, often have dust on any vegetation next to the road, kicked up by tires and covering the plants or rocks there.

A straight-up dirt (as opposed to graded gravel) two-track road is often a limited use access, and not well traveled. Opportunities to turn around may be limited, depending on terrain, and the road may not be maintained.

If all the trash in the ditches (not always a good indicator) looks old and not fresh, chances are the road is only traveled by very neat people, or the road isn't traveled much, most likely the latter. If you have a problem, you may be on your own.

The narrower the road, the more vegetation, the less dust on adjacent vegetation, generally, the less traveled the road. Look for signs of recent travel (tire tracks). The absence of these may indicate this is not the road you are looking for.

Roads which are just fine to travel when dry may be hellholes when wet. High shrink/swell clays like bentonite and Montmorillonite/Illite are fairly common in the west, especilly in 'badlands' terrain. When dry, you can drive on these surfaces all day long. When wet, the water swells the upper layers which can best be defined as 'slicker than cat crap'--imagine driving on thick, sticky pudding. While it is easy to get stuck, even staying on a road is problematical.

Four wheel drive just gets you stuck farther from civilization than two wheel drive. If it is a main road, unless you got caught in a blizzard, you should be able to get where you are going just fine in two wheel drive.

Sometimes, the best  thing to do is to retrace your steps, go back to the main road and ask someone for directions.

Always have a survival kit (a 72 hour bug out bag)--it can make the difference between surviving with few problems and a life or death situation. While such gear is weather/climate/terrain specific, a good rule of thumb is at least a half gallon of water per person, some 'road food', and always a couple of ignition sources (lighters, matches). Being able to build a fire might not only give you the ability to signal someone, but you might get to drink warm snowmelt, even tea or coffee, instead of urine.  At least a blanket or sleeping bag per person is a good idea, too, and  clothing suitable for being out in the weather, whatever that is anticipated to be.

On a recent 300 mile trip, knowing a blizzard was anticipated to roll in not long after I got back, I had a gallon of water per person, camp stove, a sleeping bag and a blanket per person, 100 ft. paracord, two 8X10 tarps, a fairly extensive first-aid kit, basic hand tools, food for two days plus the survival rations in the bug out bag, assorted road snacks, an older square blade metal shovel, a few assorted knives, and a solid knowledge of the roads and anticipated hazards along the way. (A hand saw would have been good to have, too).

A note on Tarp and paracord: good for what ails you, can be as mundane as something to kneel on while changing a tire, as important as something to tie around a vehicle that rolled and came back onto its wheels without any windows intact, so the vehicle can still be used for shelter, or be made into a shelter on its own. A small tarp can be made into a stretcher or travois to transport injured people as well, if the need arises.

It is usually best to stay with the vehicle.  This, however, does not always get you out of a bind. Someone has to know where you are going, when to expect you there, roughly speaking, or no one will know where you are, that you are missing or where to look for you.

Making yourself visible can be tough, especially in snow. Trudging out a message (SOS in snow or sand) that can be seen by air can be a good idea, keep the letters at least 20 ft. high, and as wide as you can get them. The more contrast you can get between letters and background, the more likely it will be seen.

Look around, check your back trail, especially when you make a turn, because it often looks different heading the other way. I've been wandering the boonies for the better part of six decades, and while I may have taken a 'scenic route' or two, never got stuck to the point I had to be rescued. I have never used GPS, either, in a vehicle or on foot, for my primary means of navigation.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 08:12:29 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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I have been on a lot of back country roads in a career of working on remote oil drilling locations. Some things to check for:
Type of road: Some parts of the country are extensively traveled by gravel or dirt roads.
 
Gravel roads that are well used tend to be wider, have little or no vegetation growing out of any part of the road, including the crown, often have dust on any vegetation next to the road, kicked up by tires and covering the plants or rocks there.

A straight-up dirt (as opposed to graded gravel) two-track road is often a limited use access, and not well traveled. Opportunities to turn around may be limited, depending on terrain, and the road may not be maintained.

If all the trash in the ditches (not always a good indicator) looks old and not fresh, chances are the road is only traveled by very neat people, or the road isn't traveled much, most likely the latter. If you have a problem, you may be on your own.

The narrower the road, the more vegetation, the less dust on adjacent vegetation, generally, the less traveled the road. Look for signs of recent travel (tire tracks). The absence of these may indicate this is not the road you are looking for.

Roads which are just fine to travel when dry may be hellholes when wet. High shrink/swell clays like bentonite and Montmorillonite/Illite are fairly common in the west, especilly in 'badlands' terrain. When dry, you can drive on these surfaces all day long. When wet, the water swells the upper layers which can best be defined as 'slicker than cat crap'--imagine driving on thick, sticky pudding. While it is easy to get stuck, even staying on a road is problematical.

Four wheel drive just gets you stuck farther from civilization than two wheel drive. If it is a main road, unless you got caught in a blizzard, you should be able to get where you are going just fine in two wheel drive.

Sometimes, the best  thing to do is to retrace your steps, go back to the main road and ask someone for directions.

Always have a survival kit (a 72 hour bug out bag)--it can make the difference between surviving with few problems and a life or death situation. While such gear is weather/climate/terrain specific, a good rule of thumb is at least a half gallon of water per person, some 'road food', and always a couple of ignition sources (lighters, matches). Being able to build a fire might not only give you the ability to signal someone, but you might get to drink warm snowmelt, even tea or coffee, instead of urine.  At least a blanket or sleeping bag per person is a good idea, too, and  clothing suitable for being out in the weather, whatever that is anticipated to be.

On a recent 300 mile trip, knowing a blizzard was anticipated to roll in not long after I got back, I had a gallon of water per person, camp stove, a sleeping bag and a blanket per person, 100 ft. paracord, two 8X10 tarps, a fairly extensive first-aid kit, basic hand tools, food for two days plus the survival rations in the bug out bag, assorted road snacks, an older square blade metal shovel, a few assorted knives, and a solid knowledge of the roads and anticipated hazards along the way. (A hand saw would have been good to have, too).

A note on Tarp and paracord: good for what ails you, can be as mundane as something to kneel on while changing a tire, as important as something to tie around a vehicle that rolled and came back onto its wheels without any windows intact, so the vehicle can still be used for shelter, or be made into a shelter on its own. A small tarp can be made into a stretcher or travois to transport injured people as well, if the need arises.

It is usually best to stay with the vehicle.  This, however, does not always get you out of a bind. Someone has to know where you are going, when to expect you there, roughly speaking, or no one will know where you are, that you are missing or where to look for you.

Making yourself visible can be tough, especially in snow. Trudging out a message (SOS in snow or sand) that can be seen by air can be a good idea, keep the letters at least 20 ft. high, and as wide as you can get them. The more contrast you can get between letters and background, the more likely it will be seen.

Look around, check your back trail, especially when you make a turn, because it often looks different heading the other way. I've been wandering the boonies for the better part of six decades, and while I may have taken a 'scenic route' or two, never got stuck to the point I had to be rescued. I have never used GPS, either, in a vehicle or on foot, for my primary means of navigation.

Keen observations, and thanks for sharing.  Pertinent to many different places one travels off road.

Even when in civilized areas, when I used to drive in the back roads of Connecticut to get to my office in the suburbs of NYC during wintertime, I also ensured in my pickup I carried a shovel and sand to get me out of a slippery area. Also, what I called a bail-out coat which could keep me warm.
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Offline roamer_1

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I have been on a lot of back country roads in a career of working on remote oil drilling locations. Some things to check for:



Great points all!

All that's left, and pursuant to the OP, I offer a quaint old-timey notion:

Map, compass, and know how to use them.
Nothing, ever, beats knowing your terrain.
GPSers have lost a very important skill.

Online Smokin Joe

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Keen observations, and thanks for sharing.  Pertinent to many different places one travels off road.

Even when in civilized areas, when I used to drive in the back roads of Connecticut to get to my office in the suburbs of NYC during wintertime, I also ensured in my pickup I carried a shovel and sand to get me out of a slippery area. Also, what I called a bail-out coat which could keep me warm.
Sand is good, and a couple of sacks in the back add weight, which helps a lot as most pickups have light rear ends. You can get 'sand tubes' with 70 lbs of sand from auto parts places or even building supply stores (Menard's in this area, for one.). Two of the best traction-getters on ice are Oil-Dry and Kitty Litter. either will work, but kitty litter will make your tires smell better. You can get a pretty good sized sack of oil dry at any auto parts store, and put it in the trunk or repackage it into smaller units and put it in more than one vehicle. Like sand, spread it on the side of the drive tires in the intended direction of travel, and make sure to get some against the tires.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Great points all!

All that's left, and pursuant to the OP, I offer a quaint old-timey notion:

Map, compass, and know how to use them.
Nothing, ever, beats knowing your terrain.
GPSers have lost a very important skill.
For a long time I got out of the habit of carrying a compass. Not much need for the Brunton on an oil rig. Then I got caught in a ground blizzard coming out of the Red Desert in Wyoming, and realized I was directionally disoriented and couldn't steer by the sun. I knew I wanted to go to the North and to the East, but couldn't tell if I was already heading north, or if I was going east. A right turn was good if I was going north, but wrong if I was headed East. Despite being daylight, the overcast/suspended snow was so heavy that I couldn't even pick out a light spot in the sky. I made a wrong turn, by the Grace of God realized it (the snowdrifts just didn't show any signs of being disturbed and there were no packed snow patches on the roadway from someone driving over a drift), turned around, and made it to the nearest fuel stop out at Muddy Gap with a gallon of fuel in the tank. In that vehicle, that was about ten miles worth. I was in a van, and had my gear, so I'd have been all right for a few days, but that would have been a mite inconvenient, to say the least.
After that, I have always carried a compass.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Gefn

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I don't have a GPS system. I still use old school maps, or ask for directions
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I don't have a GPS system. I still use old school maps, or ask for directions
Never had a battery go dead or a fuse blow on a map...and in a pinch, you can use the places you don't go when you do go (Sorry, west coast, no disrespect intended).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Gefn

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Never had a battery go dead or a fuse blow on a map...and in a pinch, you can use the places you don't go when you do go (Sorry, west coast, no disrespect intended).

I loved the maps AAA use to give to members and trip ticks.
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Online Smokin Joe

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I loved the maps AAA use to give to members and trip ticks.
I have always loved maps, but my favorites (aside from the ones in the National Geographics back when) were the road atlases the Insurance companies used to hand out.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Gefn

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I have always loved maps, but my favorites (aside from the ones in the National Geographics back when) were the road atlases the Insurance companies used to hand out.

I don't remember those, but I remember having World Book Encyclopedias growing up. Each with a different year on the spine.
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Offline roamer_1

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After that, I have always carried a compass.

I have done similar - too cold, desperate... used my map to make fire. I will never do that again.

Live and learn, eh? Providing that you actually live :)

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I have done similar - too cold, desperate... used my map to make fire. I will never do that again.

Live and learn, eh? Providing that you actually live :)

You must not have learned that in the Boy Scouts @roamer_1 !
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Offline roamer_1

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You must not have learned that in the Boy Scouts !

I swear, @Freya , there's a whole company of angels out there that are plumb wore out from saving my hide...
To quote my father: "Dumb kid..."

Offline Frank Cannon

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Being an old Eagle Scout, I still keep maps in all the cars. When I met my wife she didn't have a clue how to use one. I forced her to learn to on trips and she thanks me still because she was able to avoid long highway backups by going around the trouble over the years. Now that everything is GPS, I use it the new fangled way because I am inherently lazy, but when we go on family trips I am jerk dad and make my daughter map the route on whatever AAA maps I have and tell us what towns are coming up as we drive.

Hopefully something will sink in to her.....probably not.

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I have done similar - too cold, desperate... used my map to make fire. I will never do that again.

Live and learn, eh? Providing that you actually live :)
Why I like the road atlas. I can burn places I don't ever expect I'll go. Use others for TP, and still find my way home... :laugh:

Most of the spots I'd get into trouble, the road maps aren't always so accurate, either..  pay attention to the landmarks going there, check your six, often, and every time you change direction, for the different view (a down side to traveling at night). If you follow someone else in, make sure you pay attention to the landscape and not just their back end (or their horse's or their vehicle's).   If it's on topo (and not just a road map), that's a whole different deal, and that renders a compass much more useful, provided you aren't in the white part at the edge of the sheet (I seem to travel there a lot).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Smokin Joe

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Being an old Eagle Scout, I still keep maps in all the cars. When I met my wife she didn't have a clue how to use one. I forced her to learn to on trips and she thanks me still because she was able to avoid long highway backups by going around the trouble over the years. Now that everything is GPS, I use it the new fangled way because I am inherently lazy, but when we go on family trips I am jerk dad and make my daughter map the route on whatever AAA maps I have and tell us what towns are coming up as we drive.

Hopefully something will sink in to her.....probably not.
You never know. Kids are funny that way. They seem to pay attention when you least suspect it.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Being an old Eagle Scout, I still keep maps in all the cars.

Being a redneck boy, so do I...

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Now that everything is GPS, I use it the new fangled way because I am inherently lazy [...]


Now wait... I use the old-fangled way because I'm lazy... weird.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 01:56:06 am by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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Why I like the road atlas. I can burn places I don't ever expect I'll go. Use others for TP, and still find my way home... :laugh:

Yeah... atlases don't do me much good... Topo, FS roads, creeks and rivers kinda thing... MT has pretty good maps available through Fish and Game... Used to have the whole set for the MT Rockies, but I don't think they survived the divorce.

Quote
If it's on topo (and not just a road map), that's a whole different deal, and that renders a compass much more useful, provided you aren't in the white part at the edge of the sheet (I seem to travel there a lot).

LOL! Yeah I have been exactly there. Didn't see you though.... ; )
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 02:05:06 am by roamer_1 »

Offline roamer_1

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You never know. Kids are funny that way. They seem to pay attention when you least suspect it.

Yep... never cooked a lick, other than over a fire, until my divorce... Found out I knew how alright, and most of it from my mother's own hand. All those years I must have learned by osmosis.... I didn't even know I was paying attention.

Just recently remembered chicken-fried steak... w/ mashed/garlic  taters and beans on the side... I can't even tell you how many times I had that as a kid... Just pulled it out of my head and voila! Turned out perfect. Man, how I have missed it all this time! I dunno how my mamma got it stuck in my head, but she did.

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Instruments are only as good as the mind using them.  If reality doesn't match what the instrument is telling you, it ain't reality that's wrong.
The hard part is getting people to pay attention to reality. Instruments give a nice neat picture of what is supposed to be there. Reality can be messy and difficult to interpret.

PS Flying in fog? Trust the instruments--at least the attitude indicators.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Instruments are only as good as the mind using them.  If reality doesn't match what the instrument is telling you, it ain't reality that's wrong.

Until the batteries are gone, or it's way below zero... Then the 'instrument' is out of the game.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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I use my phone to avoid traffic in Boston, works great.

Offline Joe Wooten

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Great points all!

All that's left, and pursuant to the OP, I offer a quaint old-timey notion:

Map, compass, and know how to use them.
Nothing, ever, beats knowing your terrain.
GPSers have lost a very important skill.

Which is the answer I give to all the Scouts in our troop who tell me map and compass are obsolete and useless.

I don't have a smart phone and never use a GPS device.

Offline Joe Wooten

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I loved the maps AAA use to give to members and trip ticks.

They still give them out or at least did up to last year.....

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Which is the answer I give to all the Scouts in our troop who tell me map and compass are obsolete and useless.

I don't have a smart phone and never use a GPS device.


I think people are getting navigation apps and GPS units confused here. GPS units should work the world over. The military uses them, this was their purpose.


Where these people are getting into trouble is plugging an address into say "Apple maps" or "Google maps" and letting the app guide them. In Boston Apple maps repeatedly tries to take me over the Longfellow Bridge, which has been closed for a year now due to construction.


In an urban area it's not a big deal, out in the middle of nowhere, could be a life and death decision.

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I think people are getting navigation apps and GPS units confused here. GPS units should work the world over. The military uses them, this was their purpose.


Where these people are getting into trouble is plugging an address into say "Apple maps" or "Google maps" and letting the app guide them. In Boston Apple maps repeatedly tries to take me over the Longfellow Bridge, which has been closed for a year now due to construction.


In an urban area it's not a big deal, out in the middle of nowhere, could be a life and death decision.
You are right in that the GPS unit just gives a location, it is the maps which provide the frame of reference. Navigation apps/programs are only as good as the maps in them, and sometimes those are pitifully outdated or misleading.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline musiclady

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I don't have a GPS system. I still use old school maps, or ask for directions

Maps are 1000% better than GPS.

If we do use GPS it's only as a back up to REAL directions.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Maps are 1000% better than GPS.

If we do use GPS it's only as a back up to REAL directions.


 :shrug:


Depends on the map right? This is just "old fartism" to me. My GPS app is essential to not sitting in traffic to boston.


You old farts need to get off my lawn.

Offline roamer_1

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GPS units should work the world over.

Unless the batts are dead, or the unit is damaged in a fall, or it gets wet, or it's fairly cold.
That's the problem. They're reliable until they aren't. And when they aren't, they're a brick.

A map in a ziplock bag, and a good compass are a very durable system - Reliable in any weather.
(I might add that I actually have three compasses in my full outfit, as my belt, pack, and go-bag each have one, albeit that only the one in my belt is of a high quality)

I would say GPS is fine to carry, providing one also carries a compass and map for backup... carry both... Because electronics are notoriously incompatible with wilderness.

But my complaint is that GPS is too easy, so folks will tend to go that way, and forget learning navigation in the process. Kinda like how I can't remember phone numbers anymore, because the phone does that for me. I have lost the ability to retain them.

Offline roamer_1

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Which is the answer I give to all the Scouts in our troop who tell me map and compass are obsolete and useless.

fairly easy to remedy... Take em out, set them up to use a cheap gps unit to get home... then drop a rock on it, before you hand it to them...

I't great that you are teaching them the old way - it is a primary skill, whether they know it or not. Also basic nav by stars and sun (though you probably already knew that too) It's amazing how few people even know where to find the constellations anymore.


Offline Cripplecreek

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Don't be a moron and die.

Got it. :thumbsup:

Offline roamer_1

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Don't be a moron and die. Got it.

LOL! Easier for some, more than others...
 :beer:

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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fairly easy to remedy... Take em out, set them up to use a cheap gps unit to get home... then drop a rock on it, before you hand it to them...

I't great that you are teaching them the old way - it is a primary skill, whether they know it or not. Also basic nav by stars and sun (though you probably already knew that too) It's amazing how few people even know where to find the constellations anymore.

What's so hard about that?  https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/skyview-free-explore-universe/id413936865?mt=8
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Offline Cripplecreek

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LOL! Easier for some, more than others...
 :beer:

In my youth I put myself in a few situations that could have gone very badly very quickly. Usually there was alcohol, a girl, or both involved.

One of the worst was setting out at 9 pm for a 30 mile walk to my girlfriend in a northern Michigan snowstorm. 6 hours later after not seeing any cars during hours of walking I was getting pretty concerned myself. Fortunately a big national guard truck rolled up next to me. They said that they had shut the highway down and were just patrolling to make sure no one was stranded out there.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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  • I'll make Mincemeat out of 'em"

I think people are getting navigation apps and GPS units confused here. GPS units should work the world over. The military uses them, this was their purpose.

Right.  A GPS unit will just tell you where you are, which can be incredibly useful information, particularly in the military.  It is an enormous boost for accurate targeting, for example, and in places (like the desert) that lack useful terrain features with which to navigate by.

Navigation aids tell you routes, and that can be dangerous.  To some extent, navigation aids and GPS's are somewhat equivalent to calculators as opposed to doing math "long hand".  The calculator can make many computations much easier, but should never be relied upon without a basic knowledge of mathematics/arithmetic to back it up.

Compasses are great, although a lot of metal (like an engine block...) can throw them off.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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I keep this pinned up at my desk.

[attachment deleted by admin]
“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour

Offline Joe Wooten

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fairly easy to remedy... Take em out, set them up to use a cheap gps unit to get home... then drop a rock on it, before you hand it to them...

I't great that you are teaching them the old way - it is a primary skill, whether they know it or not. Also basic nav by stars and sun (though you probably already knew that too) It's amazing how few people even know where to find the constellations anymore.

Yep. I made a point of doing night navigation by the stars on campouts. I also made them turn off and pocket their flashlights. Even on a moonless night, there is enough light to slowly find your way. Even in the deep woods. Your eyes can adapt to those conditions, but you HAVE to think and truly look at where you are going.

Offline musiclady

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 :shrug:


Depends on the map right? This is just "old fartism" to me. My GPS app is essential to not sitting in traffic to boston.


You old farts need to get off my lawn.

When your GPS, for no reason, tells you to get off the freeway and onto the sides streets of Chicago (as my husband's once did), you can get back to me.

GPS is limited in its value, and I use it sparingly and skeptically.  Maps always work.

(Some of us get up to date versions, dear.  That doesn't make us "old farts" by any definition of the word...... even yours).
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Rivergirl

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A few years ago we used our Garmin to find a large appliance store.
Finally it said..........ARRIVING AT DESTINATION ON THE LEFT.
Alrighty then........on the left was the Hudson River.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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When your GPS, for no reason, tells you to get off the freeway and onto the sides streets of Chicago (as my husband's once did), you can get back to me.

GPS is limited in its value, and I use it sparingly and skeptically.  Maps always work.

(Some of us get up to date versions, dear.  That doesn't make us "old farts" by any definition of the word...... even yours).


No such thing as technology that works 100%. Doesn't mean maps work better.


My GPS in indispensible for dealing with Boston traffic. Works great. Maybe a user issue with you?

Offline musiclady

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No such thing as technology that works 100%. Doesn't mean maps work better.


My GPS in indispensible for dealing with Boston traffic. Works great. Maybe a user issue with you?

I'm a visual learner.  I like to see the whole picture.  Maps do that.  I see north/south/east/west, relative distances, alternate routes and all the other things I need for navigation.

When I-90/94 flooded near the Wisconsin Dells a few years ago and we needed an alternate route, my use of the map was far more efficient than what GPS was saying, and we got around the flooding far more quickly.

GPS shows a limited view, and forces you to trust what they're giving you as opposed to what you can see for yourself.

Perhaps in Boston traffic it helps out.   But in all our thousands upon thousands of miles of cross country traffic over many years, maps have proven to be superior.   I use GPS for accident information and directions to specific restaurants, etc., but for overall traffic across this magnificent country, maps work better.

JMHO.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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I'm a visual learner.  I like to see the whole picture.  Maps do that.  I see north/south/east/west, relative distances, alternate routes and all the other things I need for navigation.

When I-90/94 flooded near the Wisconsin Dells a few years ago and we needed an alternate route, my use of the map was far more efficient than what GPS was saying, and we got around the flooding far more quickly.

GPS shows a limited view, and forces you to trust what they're giving you as opposed to what you can see for yourself.

Perhaps in Boston traffic it helps out.   But in all our thousands upon thousands of miles of cross country traffic over many years, maps have proven to be superior.   I use GPS for accident information and directions to specific restaurants, etc., but for overall traffic across this magnificent country, maps work better.

JMHO.


 :shrug:  We'll agree to disagree.


For flooding, that's a silly comment, how are GPS's supposed to inately know about flooding? I never claimed they were better in every incident.


I love using the maps feature on my phone. Works great.

Offline musiclady

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 :shrug:  We'll agree to disagree.


For flooding, that's a silly comment, how are GPS's supposed to inately know about flooding? I never claimed they were better in every incident.


I love using the maps feature on my phone. Works great.

When a major US interstate is covered in water and closed, shouldn't GPS know about it?  If it knows about accidents and construction, why not a massive amount of water covering a freeway and closing down all the lanes on both sides?

Not really a silly comment.  A serious, true comment.  The map worked better.  The GPS should have known about the interstate's being closed and directed us off of it.  Fortunately, since everyone else apparently was depending on technology and was therefore stuck on the freeway, there was hardly anyone on the side roads that I found on the map, so we got around the problem lickety split and no one else did!

I know that lots of folks love and depend on GPS, so I have no problem whatsoever with your use of it.

Just don't call people who prefer maps "old farts" again, and we'll be fine.   :beer:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

geronl

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I just imagined teens with their faces in their phones realizing they aren't connected and looking around to find themselves surrounded by a forest.

Offline Joe Wooten

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I just imagined teens with their faces in their phones realizing they aren't connected and looking around to find themselves surrounded by a forest.

I should have had my camera to take a photo of their faces when I made the Scouts turn off their phones and give them to me at one campout a couple of years ago. The looks on their faces was priceless...... :whistle: