WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump

[Rivergirl]

Morals and integrity are not cheap.  Often keeping your principles  intact can come with a high price.
NEVER TRUMP NEVER EVER.

[libertybele]

The odd part in all this is that if the discussion was just on the issues, we'd all likely agree, and not just on what is a problem, but on a lot of the solutions, too. It wasn't Trump's originally claimed political stance at the start of the Primary season that was so terribly different from the next Conservative over, it was his behaviour once the ball got rolling that caused a breach of faith, of trust, and finally, the Party. Some followed the man, others stayed with principles. Burying principles to support a person some see as the one to repair what will take all of us working hard to fix this Republic is where we will disagree.
It isn't the problem, so much as the proposed solution.

Perhaps when this disaster is over those of us who want to restore the Republic can craft a plan to do so.

Agreed.  Trump's original stance on the issues in the beginning of the primary isn't the problem and his flip-flopping on those issues isn't as much of a problem as his immature, immoral, embarrassing, bombastic behavior and comments are.  He relentlessly attacked his truly conservative fellow opponent and in doing so, further fractured the party; otherwise we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It is rather disingenuous of a supposed 'conservative' candidate, or at least a candidate running under the Republican umbrella to attack his fellow GOP candidates as outlandishly as he did and not go after his opponent until a month or so before the general election.  In doing so, he has literally destroyed the party from within and the GOP electorate remains strongly divided.  What the consequences of his actions will be to those running down ballot remains to be seen.  It is very difficult at least for me, to not see this as all by design by the Clinton machine and Trump has merely been a siphon for the DEMS from the beginning.

As for restoring the Republic; I firmly believe with a Hillary presidency, there will be no chance of restoration until this country completely collapses and we may at best have a very slim chance to pick up the pieces and start over after the dust settles.  With a Trump presidency, I am not at all confident that the outcome will be any different; especially if we don't hold our majority in both Houses.

[Polly Ticks]

It is not what we will do that matters,  it is what that 10% of the worst informed voters who cannot make up their minds until the election is very nearly upon them will do,  that matters.   

We got 40%.   The Dems got 40%.   That tiny little cadre of fools in the middle always decide which way the nation will go.   

They obviously don't think "qualifications"  are a big deal because they twice elected Obama.

I may resemble that remark?  Well, other than the "twice elected Obama" part, of course.

I have never before been an undecided voter in my life, and can't be called an uninformed voter by any stretch of the imagination.  But this year is different.  This year, as of this moment in time, I am still undecided.  Personally, I believe that's more of an indictment against a broken process than it is against me ... but I admit that opinion could be self-serving.   

This year's undecideds -- at least those who are anything like me -- shouldn't be dismissed as a "tiny cadre of fools".  We understand Hillary is a bad option, but we believe Trump is a bad option as well and that leaves us in a conundrum.  Will I play the cock-eyed optimist and vote for Trump in the hopes that he helps progress conservative ideals?  Will I vote for a third-party candidate that more closely aligns with my beliefs, even though I fully understand his chances of winning are non-existent?  Will I abstain from the presidential race and just vote down ticket?  I am undecided -- not because I don't understand the choices and consequences, but because there is no option that I can honestly say I am at peace with quite yet.

Many people have come to the conclusion that Trump has earned their vote simply by not being Hillary.  I respect that.

Other people have come to the conclusion that they cannot in good conscience vote for Trump because they don't trust him to govern according to their values.  I respect that, too.

That doesn't mean I am a fool.  It means that I take this very seriously, and continue to weigh my options and soul-seek about what I can and cannot do come election day.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I may resemble that remark?  Well, other than the "twice elected Obama" part, of course.

I have never before been an undecided voter in my life, and can't be called an uninformed voter by any stretch of the imagination.  But this year is different.  This year, as of this moment in time, I am still undecided.  Personally, I believe that's more of an indictment against a broken process than it is against me ... but I admit that opinion could be self-serving.   

This year's undecideds -- at least those who are anything like me -- shouldn't be dismissed as a "tiny cadre of fools".  We understand Hillary is a bad option, but we believe Trump is a bad option as well and that leaves us in a conundrum.  Will I play the cock-eyed optimist and vote for Trump in the hopes that he helps progress conservative ideals?  Will I vote for a third-party candidate that more closely aligns with my beliefs, even though I fully understand his chances of winning are non-existent?  Will I abstain from the presidential race and just vote down ticket?  I am undecided -- not because I don't understand the choices and consequences, but because there is no option that I can honestly say I am at peace with quite yet.

Many people have come to the conclusion that Trump has earned their vote simply by not being Hillary.  I respect that.

Other people have come to the conclusion that they cannot in good conscience vote for Trump because they don't trust him to govern according to their values.  I respect that, too.

That doesn't mean I am a fool.  It means that I take this very seriously, and continue to weigh my options and soul-seek about what I can and cannot do come election day.

Yeah, same here. Everytime I think I'm settled on one way or the other, something happens to change my mind.


I probably won't know who I'll vote for until I'm in that booth on that Tuesday.

[r9etb]

I have never before been an undecided voter in my life, and can't be called an uninformed voter by any stretch of the imagination.  But this year is different.  This year, as of this moment in time, I am still undecided.  Personally, I believe that's more of an indictment against a broken process than it is against me ... but I admit that opinion could be self-serving.   

This year's undecideds -- at least those who are anything like me -- shouldn't be dismissed as a "tiny cadre of fools".  We understand Hillary is a bad option, but we believe Trump is a bad option as well and that leaves us in a conundrum.

Precisely.  I made up my mind a while ago, but that's exactly where I was before I'd had enough.

[libertybele]

Yeah, same here. Everytime I think I'm settled on one way or the other, something happens to change my mind.


I probably won't know who I'll vote for until I'm in that booth on that Tuesday.

I think tonight's debate will be a deciding factor. With the poll numbers in Clinton's favor, I anticipate she will deliver more of the same as her last debate.  The pressure is all on Trump tonight; he has to have a stellar debate.  Not just good, but stellar.  IF he lets goes full 'Trump' on Hillary with his bombastic comments and behavior; he's done and he will have sealed his coffin completely shut. It is imperative I think for him to display a calm composure and speak half-way intelligently.  If he can force Hillary to stumble on her statements or retract what she's previously stated (unlikely as she's a pro at lying and deception) and publicly catch her in a lie, she will lose the debate and there will be a real possibility she may lose the election.

I'm really not sure Trump can do it, though he really surprised me in the last debate.  He needs a great debate as well as calmly destroying Hillary.

[musiclady]

I think tonight's debate will be a deciding factor. With the poll numbers in Clinton's favor, I anticipate she will deliver more of the same as her last debate.  The pressure is all on Trump tonight; he has to have a stellar debate.  Not just good, but stellar.  IF he lets goes full 'Trump' on Hillary with his bombastic comments and behavior; he's done and he will have sealed his coffin completely shut. It is imperative I think for him to display a calm composure and speak half-way intelligently.  If he can force Hillary to stumble on her statements or retract what she's previously stated (unlikely as she's a pro at lying and deception) and publicly catch her in a lie, she will lose the debate and there will be a real possibility she may lose the election.

I'm really not sure Trump can do it, though he really surprised me in the last debate.  He needs a great debate as well as calmly destroying Hillary.

Unless Donald Trump can be a different person in the debate than he is in real life, it will have no effect.

Everyone knows he's an actor.... a phony, a pretender.  The only ones he'll fool by pretending to be an adult tonight are the ones who already are under his spell.

Besides which, most people won't even watch because they hate both candidates.

[r9etb]

It is imperative I think for him to display a calm composure and speak half-way intelligently.  If he can force Hillary to stumble on her statements or retract what she's previously stated (unlikely as she's a pro at lying and deception) and publicly catch her in a lie, she will lose the debate and there will be a real possibility she may lose the election.

I'm really not sure Trump can do it, though he really surprised me in the last debate.  He needs a great debate as well as calmly destroying Hillary.

Trump's only chance is to focus solely on policy and to discuss it intelligently and coherently.  That's the only chance he has to demonstrate a basic fitness for the office to the undecideds.

More of the same will sink him.

Personally, I think it's too late for him to change enough minds to make a difference.  I suspect the true "undecideds" are probably not that numerous at this point.  At best, he might win some wavering Republicans back, who are not the "undecideds" he needs to convince.

[Axel]

It's the same excuses we hear every election for electing a liberal while being called a conservative. Thats why conservatism is screwed until we rid the movement of people like this. Clearly situational ethics are just fine with them and not conservative principles. So realistically they should pitch their tent at the GOP and be done with it.

Of course, if they did that, they couldn't continue disrupting conservatives from the inside.

You don't have the political influence to do so. 

[Norm Lenhart]

You don't have the political influence to do so. 

You seem rather proud of destroying conservatism.

[Silver Pines]

Where has he admitted that, @CatherineofAragon?

The 2005 tape doesn't show that at all...he explicitly states that they let him.

Could it still be assault?  Yes.  But he never says it is...he implies that they're perfectly willing because of his star status.

Or is there another example, about which I'm not aware?

@Suppressed

No, he did not say they were perfectly willing because of his star status.  Let's take a look at what came out of his mouth and then apply common sense:

"I'm automatically attracted to beautiful [women]—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the bleep. You can do anything."

Trump admitted that he had a habit of walking up to women and just kissing them, without asking.  Then he said, "they let you do it", which tells me they were intimidated by his status and therefore let him get away with it.

Now, if he didn't ask permission to kiss the women, do you think he asked if he could grab their crotches?  What groper does that?  He doesn't.  He just gropes.

Add to all of that the fact that Rudy Giuliani, the former prosecutor, admitted that it was sexual assault.

[Silver Pines]

The idea that the GOP "base" is more holy or moral than the general US population is completely ridiculous and totally wrong. I would argue the opposite, they're less moral than the US population: they were willing to accept Trump's immorality, but the general US population isn't.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

This is a hard truth, but there it is.  We've given up the right to preach about moral values.  Next time we try, people will laugh in our faces.

[geronl]

The idea that the GOP "base" is more holy or moral than the general US population is completely ridiculous and totally wrong. I would argue the opposite, they're less moral than the US population: they were willing to accept Trump's immorality, but the general US population isn't.

Putting party over principle is killing the party and the principles

[geronl]

I think the debate should be the worst rated show in TV history

[musiclady]

You seem rather proud of destroying conservatism.

That was, after all, the goal, was it not?

I suppose they're proud of the damage they have done.

[Norm Lenhart]

That was, after all, the goal, was it not?

I suppose they're proud of the damage they have done.

Yup. I'm just amazed at how so few people see it for what it is.

[musiclady]

@Suppressed

No, he did not say they were perfectly willing because of his star status.  Let's take a look at what came out of his mouth and then apply common sense:

"I'm automatically attracted to beautiful [women]—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the bleep. You can do anything."

Trump admitted that he had a habit of walking up to women and just kissing them, without asking.  Then he said, "they let you do it", which tells me they were intimidated by his status and therefore let him get away with it.

Now, if he didn't ask permission to kiss the women, do you think he asked if he could grab their crotches?  What groper does that?  He doesn't.  He just gropes.

Add to all of that the fact that Rudy Giuliani, the former prosecutor, admitted that it was sexual assault.

It seems to me, given the quote and the circumstances, that you would have to work very hard to say this is anything but assault.

I understand that in a court of law, it may take more to actually prove it, but the cold reality is that Donald Trump took advantage of and molested women just because he could.

Applying common sense is a rare thing these days......... or so it seems.

@CatherineofAragon

[jpsb]

Perhaps when this disaster is over those of us who want to restore the Republic can craft a plan to do so.

@Smokin Joe

I do not know why you persist in the fantasy that the country can be fixed in a post Hillary era. It can't. "It is either Trump or a thousand years of darkness."

The border is on the ballet this election.
The Supreme Court is on the ballet this election.
The amnesty is on the ballet this election.
A war with Russia is on the ballet this election.
American Jobs are on the ballet this election.

Amnesty for tens of millions of illegals, millions of Islamic refugees, courts including the Supreme Court packed with Marxists, open borders, more job killing, sovereignty killing trade deals.  No the USA can not survive that as a constitutional republic. Elect Hillary and you kill the country.

Elect Hillary and give the Marxist Democrats a super majority forever. No conservative republican will ever be elected nationally and damn few will be elected state wide. Elect Hillary and Texas will turn blue by 2024.

[Norm Lenhart]

@Smokin Joe

I do not know why you persist in the fantasy that the country can be fixed in a post Hillary era. It can't. "It is either Trump or a thousand years of darkness."

The border is on the ballet this election.
The Supreme Court is on the ballet this election.
The amnesty is on the ballet this election.
A war with Russia is on the ballet this election.
American Jobs are on the ballet this election.

Amnesty for tens of millions of illegals, millions of Islamic refugees, courts including the Supreme Court packed with Marxists, open borders, more job killing, sovereignty killing trade deals.  No the USA can not survive that as a constitutional republic. Elect Hillary and you kill the country.

Elect Hillary and give the Marxist Democrats a super majority forever. No conservative republican will ever be elected nationally and damn few will be elected state wide. Elect Hillary and Texas will turn blue by 2024.

If you are going to cut and paste propaganda, at least spell check it so you don't look so unintelligent. We all make mistakes, but that one has been pointed out to you repeatedly.

[musiclady]

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

This is a hard truth, but there it is.  We've given up the right to preach about moral values.  Next time we try, people will laugh in our faces.

And rightfully so.

How can we talk about ANY value in ANY area after nominating Trump as our candidate?

We've lost the high ground in every sense of the word.  We have become the lies the left told about us because of the support for Donald Trump.

Even though the rabid supporters are still a minority of the Republican party (with a healthy dose of Democrats thrown in), we are now tainted by what they have promoted. 

That's why I can't call myself a Republican any more.

I am NOT what the GOPe and Trump are.  And I never will be.

[musiclady]

Yup. I'm just amazed at how so few people see it for what it is.

What they don't see is that Trump is now the face of the GOPe.  He didn't destroy them.  He enabled them.  He enhanced their goals.

It is Conservatism that he has maimed, while embracing the liberal establishment.

And his trolls are proud of it.

[jpsb]

I've changed my vote.  I was voting Giant Asteroid but I've decided to vote for Amazon.  Amazing company... super efficient.  They send me a present at least once a week.

Yeah send Amazon more money, hey it's not my job that's getting replaced.

Jeff Bezos’ Washington Post: Import Foreign Workers to Replace Spoiled Americans
http://www.breitbart.com/immigration/2016/08/26/washington-post-jeff-bezos-scab-workers-replace-americans/

[corbe]

   Again @jpsb


   This is a ballet:



   This is a Ballot:

[Norm Lenhart]

   Again @jpsb

Whats great is he refuses to change it because he thinks it upsets us. All he accomplishes is showing the low intelligence of his position.

Net gain: Nevertrump. Personally I hope he keeps posting it as is.

[libertybele]

@Smokin Joe

I do not know why you persist in the fantasy that the country can be fixed in a post Hillary era. It can't. "It is either Trump or a thousand years of darkness."

The border is on the ballet this election.
The Supreme Court is on the ballet this election.
The amnesty is on the ballet this election.
A war with Russia is on the ballet this election.
American Jobs are on the ballet this election.

Amnesty for tens of millions of illegals, millions of Islamic refugees, courts including the Supreme Court packed with Marxists, open borders, more job killing, sovereignty killing trade deals.  No the USA can not survive that as a constitutional republic. Elect Hillary and you kill the country.

Elect Hillary and give the Marxist Democrats a super majority forever. No conservative republican will ever be elected nationally and damn few will be elected state wide. Elect Hillary and Texas will turn blue by 2024.

Agreed, except whether TX or any other state is Blue or Red will be irrelevant.  The Constitution will be dismantled and we won't see another election.  IMHO there is no guarantee that the results of a Trump presidency will be any different; I actually highly doubt it.